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Armor/AFV: Axis - WWII
Armor and ground forces of the Axis forces during World War II.
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Sd.Kfz. 251/6 C "Emil" - LSSAH in Kharkov
Koro_Nel
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Madrid, Spain / España
Joined: September 25, 2007
KitMaker: 58 posts
Armorama: 48 posts
Posted: Friday, September 26, 2008 - 09:42 PM UTC
Hi all,

I'm planning to include this emlematic vehicle for my next dio.
The Sdkfz 251/6 - Kommandopanzerwagen, was a command vehicle that included a lot of radio work, as well as cyphers and decoders. This particular one was used mainly by Peiper's staff to link between his men and the HQ.

The setting for this dio is the Third Batlle of Kharkov, during march 1943.
It's going to be a 1/35 scale based diorama.

The thing is that, by what I could gather from the net, there aren't many models depicting "Emil". By looking at photografical reference and data I noticed that the tubular antenna is similar to the one used in other axis AFV's like Sd.Kfz 232 (8 RAD), the fact is that I cannot find any manufacturer that is accurate to what I'm looking for.

The most similar reference I could find is AFV Club 35117 ( Sd.Kfz. 251/17 Ausf. C, command vehicle), what bothers me is that the antenna here is square and not really what I need. Also what photoetched is best suited for this model? Is the periscope kit that AFV Club sells for this model worth buying for? I thought of making it from scratch but if there is a more suitable one made by other manufacturers, any suggestions will be appreciated.

Another problem I have is the colour scheme, since I only have b&w photos of this particular model, I suppose it's the german panzer grey used mostly for this vehicle, but since I plan it to be used in the third battle of Kharkov in 1943, I believe whitewashing camouflage was used.

Some info I gathered from the net shows this decal much adapted to "Emil", haven't seen Echelon decals being distributed in Europe:

http://www.airconnection.on.ca/ECHELON/airconnection_ECHELON_ECH35619.htm

Resuming, I'm looking for all viable reference about "Emil", as depicted in the Third battle of Kharkov in march 1943.

As you can see, I have many doubts yet, all your help will be much appreciated

Cheers
yeahwiggie
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Dalarnas, Sweden
Joined: March 24, 2006
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Posted: Friday, September 26, 2008 - 11:26 PM UTC
Hello Daniel,
I am very interested in this build, but I couldn't find any pictures of the real deal yet. What vehicle will it be? Can you post a picture of it?
That would help me narrow down the search for more info on it.
As soon as I find out more, I'll post it here, too.

take care
Hohenstaufen
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England - South East, United Kingdom
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Posted: Friday, September 26, 2008 - 11:51 PM UTC
Daniel,
For what it's worth, this vehicle is featured in the 1977 publication "SS Armor" (sic) from Squadron/Signal. On p58 there is a black & white photo, which has been used as the inspiration for a colour plate, so it must be subjective how accurate it is. The photo credit states that it was taken in Shepetovka in March 1944, one again this may be incorrect. It has been depicted in the colour plate as being Dunkelgelb, with light oversprayed brown & green patches with a very worn coat of whitewash over the top. "Emil" is in white, & behind the name, between it & the national cross is "30" in yellow. I would treat the above info with caution. I would suspect that "Emil" was originally a Panzer grey vehicle, so the interior would be that colour anyway. Incidentally, the caption says it's a Sdkfz251/3, not a 6 (different radio equipment layout). I've checked my copies of "Wenn Alle Bruder Schweigen" & "Waffen SS at War", but can't find a better picture.
Hohenstaufen
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Posted: Saturday, September 27, 2008 - 12:03 AM UTC
Ref the antenna, I don't understand what you mean by the AFV Club one being "square". The antenna was a standard item as far as I can tell. I have made the DML version & it looks exactly like the one in the picture. I would suggest you use the DML 6206 kit as your basis. It has the large telescopic antenna for the rear included, but you don't need it for "Emil". The fact that it isn't shown would tend to support the fact that it's a /3 rather than a /6, but Chamerlain & Doyle state in their "Encyclopedia of German tanks of WW2 that the /3 could have 8 different types of radio equipment fitted depending on role - I'm not helping am I?
yeahwiggie
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Dalarnas, Sweden
Joined: March 24, 2006
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Posted: Saturday, September 27, 2008 - 05:17 AM UTC
Steve, be carefull about stating the antenna was standard. This kind of frameantenna was anything but! I used Dragon's 251/6 antenna for a conversion into Guderian's 251/6 and the 2 differed considerably. Unfortunately it was the only one I had.
Furthermore they used whatever they had as frameantennae, ranging from factorybuild over re-using other vehicles' (like the 232) to "homemade"...
Koro_Nel
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Madrid, Spain / España
Joined: September 25, 2007
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Posted: Saturday, September 27, 2008 - 02:14 PM UTC
Thanks Ron and Steve for different tips.

Steve, the DML kit you suggested seems to be the best choice, therefore thanks for the tip. Since you made already this kit, excluding photo etched that I'm planning to use ( that is eduard photoetched parts, like the tool boxes and the whole set specially designed for the DML kit), what can you tell me about the tracks, should I look into more accurate ones or they are just fine?

Ron: As you requested, here you can see what "Emil" looks like. Hopefully the scan from the book that inspired me insn't too dark ( After the batlle nº112 - Four Battles for Kharkov) and you can get at least a glimpse at what it looked like. (2nd picture and 3rd picture) If there are more visible pictures of "Emil" it will be much appreciated.


DML kit 6206


The Echelon Decals specially available for "Emil"


Picture of Emil during the 3rd batlle of Kharkov ( source: After the Batlle nº112 - Four battles for Kharkov)

then again thanks for all the data, does anyone have more pictures of Emil, I can't seem to narrow my research on the books you suggested Steve


yeahwiggie
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Dalarnas, Sweden
Joined: March 24, 2006
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Posted: Saturday, September 27, 2008 - 08:44 PM UTC
Hello Daniel,
you can use Dragon's 251/6 including the tracks. They are just fine. As for the aerial, you can use that one too, if you adjust the front of it a little, making it flatter/less angled. Maybe you can slightly warm up the front and bend it into shape?
I don't know at what commandlevel (divisional?) this 251/6 was used or in what role, but I am guessing it would have been a 251/3, which would mean it might have had a different radio setup. You might want to look into that too, if you plan on doing an as accurate as possible vehicle. If not, the original kit's radiosetup looks cool too!

I'd love to see the progress on this one, so please do keep us posted!
Koro_Nel
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Madrid, Spain / España
Joined: September 25, 2007
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Posted: Sunday, September 28, 2008 - 12:59 AM UTC
Ron many thanks for the dilligent interest you're putting into this subject, I see you're a big fan of this type of half-tracks, I must admit contrary to a lot of AFV they've got charm. About the aerial antenna I think the one presented in the DML kit is suitable, do you really think it has to be a bit more flat?, if so till what angle would you do it?

The radios inside are also a problem, since I really want to do it as accurate as possible, the lack of info and pictures about the inside of the vehicle are the actual problem for reference. Amidst the radio work, I think the command vehicle like this one had the enigma aboard, anyone can confirm it?
yeahwiggie
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Dalarnas, Sweden
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Posted: Sunday, September 28, 2008 - 01:24 AM UTC
Hello Daniel,
I just love this kind of vehicle! Halftracks are a modelling passion of mine and for some reason especially the commandversions. Don't ask why... but hey, you got me going now!
As for the radios, it is not that difficult to figure out what was used.
You need to know on what commandlevel "Emil" was used and what its function was. Like I said the 251/6 was used by senior officers on higher levels of command. These are the ones usually outfitted with the enigmamachine. Commanders on lower levels, as was Peiper I assume, used the 251/3. The main difference was the radio setup and lack of enigma.
Assuming, again, that "Emil" was used for communication and control between armoured units the FuG5 and the FuG8 were probably used. And because the whole thing is in '43 it probably would have had the FuSprech.f too.
Koro_Nel
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Posted: Sunday, September 28, 2008 - 02:35 AM UTC
Great info you're adding here Ron, probably you're right about "Emil", the main tasks is just to link up with his armor units. So encripted messages weren't so much required, therefore I think it's best to exclude the enigma. ( it would have been interesting adding it, I like that machine, but I'll stay as true as I can towards the real thing concerning the build)

About the radios that you point out, any ideas of where can I obtain these particular kits? What manufacturer is the best suited? I think I saw some interesting resine sets depicting german encoding, decoding, and radio transmitting machines, but I forgot what manufacturer it was.

I'll be researching even more information about it. Hopefully I'll be able to gather up all what is required and start building the real thing in the weeks to come.


Hohenstaufen
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Posted: Friday, October 03, 2008 - 05:05 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Steve, be carefull about stating the antenna was standard. This kind of frameantenna was anything but! I used Dragon's 251/6 antenna for a conversion into Guderian's 251/6 and the 2 differed considerably. Unfortunately it was the only one I had.
Furthermore they used whatever they had as frameantennae, ranging from factorybuild over re-using other vehicles' (like the 232) to "homemade"...


You are absolutely right Ron, there are even pictures in Furbringer of what looks like a Sdkfz232 antenna attached to a Merc or Wanderer staff car! However I would say that the one fitted to "Emil" is pretty close to "standard" whatever that is...
Daniel I think the set you're thinking of is from Plus Models, it includes an Enigma machine. I was going to use mine in an Italaeri radio truck but never got round to it, but I have plans...
Hohenstaufen
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Posted: Friday, October 03, 2008 - 05:21 PM UTC
BTW, that picture is the self same one as in "SS Armor", but with most of the buildings cropped off. One man's Shepetovka is another's Kharkov (personally I favour the latter). Very gratifying that the Echelon set shows "Emil" as dark grey under the white as I suspected. However it is very dangerous to guess colours from black & white photos, there are plenty of clear cases of this in "Panzer Colours", including one of a Wespe the text states to be painted in Dark Grey with Olive Green bands. I later learned that this vehicle belonged to "Hohenstaufen" (I even got the vehicle commander's name & rank), was therefore pictured in 1944 rather than the 1942-3 claimed, & was almost certainly Dunkelgelb base painted. Blurred & "contrasty" photos can be very hard to interpret.
Do you intend to include "the man himself"? There are several figures of Peiper to choose from...
LAH spent most of 1942 in France being re-equipped & reorganised. While they were there they held a well photographed full divisional parade down the Champs Elysee, all the vehicles were plainly dark grey, these would be the ones they took to Kharkov in 1943..
yeahwiggie
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Dalarnas, Sweden
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Posted: Saturday, October 04, 2008 - 12:06 AM UTC
Here's my build of Guderian's 251/6. It has the plus Model Enigma (wonderfull little thing that is!) and it shows the antenna I used (Dragon's). it also shows what the antenna in real life looked like and it bears a very close resemblance to the one Peiper's vehicle used too.
Guderian's sdkfz 251/6
Koro_Nel
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Madrid, Spain / España
Joined: September 25, 2007
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Posted: Saturday, October 04, 2008 - 01:01 AM UTC
I just bought the Dragon model which seems just perfect for the build, great casting and the inclusion of the radio operators and the driver are also a plus; I looked at a figurine by alpine miniatures that depicts a sd.kfz.251 driver which looks stunning, but I don't know if it is fitted for the winter dioramaI want to put the vehicle in.

@Steve: I also plan on inlcuding Peiper, since it's really his vehicle, that will be even more gratifying if I can find Peiper in winter uniform.(something similar to the Kurt Meyer model of Alpine Miniatures, the sculpt is just wonderful) I remember seeing some models by a Japanese brand but again, as for the enigma set I don't remember which one it was.
About the enigma set by Plus Models, I'll probably buy it for a future build, looks really interesting.

here are some pictures that might inspire me, especially the one with Peiper and a bottle of hennesy:


http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p253/montanes/Leibstandarte/peiper_hennesy.jpg
Peiper with a bottle of Hennesy

http://www.scrapbookpages.com/Dachauscrapbook/DachauPhotos/OldPhotos/Peiper03.JPG
Lt.Col. Peiper in the eastern front


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1c/Kamphgruppe_Peiper's_Troops_on_The_Road_To_Malmedy.jpg/500px-Kamphgruppe_Peiper's_Troops_on_The_Road_To_Malmedy.jpg
And here Peiper walking by with an Sd.Kfz. 251 behind him (good idea for the dio)

I still have to buy the photoetched by eduard that I plan to include in the build, but I can't find them in my local retailers so I guess I'll have to buy it from the net, as well as for the echelon decals that seem perfect for what I'm planning.

@Ron: really nice build, I like the coulours you used, also Guderian's predominant position on the half-track.