login   |    register

Scale Modeling Sponsors

See Your Ad Here!

Ships by Class/Type: Military Small Craft
For topics on PT boats, landing craft, Vietnam riverine, etc.
Hosted by Todd Michalak
Italeri 1/35 scale S-100 Schnellboot
Gotrek58
Visit this Community
Nordrhein-Westfalen, Germany
Joined: January 11, 2009
KitMaker: 624 posts
Armorama: 259 posts
Posted: Wednesday, June 03, 2009 - 02:34 PM UTC
Hi gents,
just a little off topic - today the postman brought me a new book to complete my naval libary: "Fischdampfer und Walfangboote im Krieg / Fishtrawler and whaling vessels at war - operation of 17th sub-hunting-flotilla in Norway"
but now back to our "problem"
... and to bring the discussion to an end - I found a very interesting pic of the famous "Raketenabschussgerät für Drahtseilraketen / rocketlauncher for wire-rope-rockets"

I think the shape of this device is very, very similar to that on HaJü's gunshield.
The author, a former commander of a sub-chaser writes, the smoke- and fire-trails of that rockets were clearly visible, but it would have been better to also have rockets with HE-warheads to fend such strafer attacks by lots of a/c off the norwegian coast.


Michael
awiskerke
Visit this Community
Netherlands
Joined: December 09, 2008
KitMaker: 285 posts
Armorama: 4 posts
Posted: Wednesday, June 03, 2009 - 03:39 PM UTC
Great Michael! I was beginning to think we'd never know the answer to this riddle.

Arjan
Robert75013
Visit this Community
Paris, France
Joined: March 08, 2009
KitMaker: 242 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Wednesday, June 03, 2009 - 04:23 PM UTC
Fabulous! You once more demonstrated of being of invaluable help, Michael!
Your library must be a bit more larger than mine I believe.

Robert
mcdurd
Visit this Community
Virginia, United States
Joined: March 17, 2005
KitMaker: 121 posts
Armorama: 16 posts
Posted: Thursday, June 04, 2009 - 07:11 AM UTC
Nice find Michael!

That trawler sure carried a bunch of depth charges. I would hate to think of suffering through a strafing attack with all of those depth charges lined along the rail!

Chris

Gotrek58
Visit this Community
Nordrhein-Westfalen, Germany
Joined: January 11, 2009
KitMaker: 624 posts
Armorama: 259 posts
Posted: Friday, June 05, 2009 - 02:33 PM UTC
Hello gents,
here are some news about the "hidden beast":
The seats with struts were made of brass wire and tube (1,3mm tube for 0,8mm wire; available from http://www.rai-ro.de/main.htm ) to be movable (neccessary to build in my little Azimut-commander)
The parts for the drum magazines are made of scale paper and superglue:


.. and I cut away some styrene to convert the edges of the frontal bridge part to get some space for the drum holders and to close the little gap to the calotte part:

and some rivetting work:

... still waiting for Archer's double row rivets (for the white ridge):

I'm very pleased to work with Archer rivets - they save time and are working well - with help of some Future/Klear.
Michael
mcdurd
Visit this Community
Virginia, United States
Joined: March 17, 2005
KitMaker: 121 posts
Armorama: 16 posts
Posted: Friday, June 05, 2009 - 03:22 PM UTC
Looks great Michael -

Did you get a set of the Quickboost ammo drums? There is enough in each set to fill up both sides. A tip - once you have assembled the bridge, give the archer rivets a sealing shot of future. This helped to blend them in and kept them from peeling off (but not from being knocked off by ham handed modelers)..

Chris
Gotrek58
Visit this Community
Nordrhein-Westfalen, Germany
Joined: January 11, 2009
KitMaker: 624 posts
Armorama: 259 posts
Posted: Friday, June 05, 2009 - 04:03 PM UTC
Hi Chris,
thanks for your advise!
... but since I had to sneeze, respectively while puffing some sanding dust - after applying the decals - and blowing the rivets away , at first I give a little of Future to the modelparts at that area I later - after the Future has dried - improve with the rivets. When the decals were dry, they will be sealed with another layer of Future. You can see it on the pics - the light glimmer around the rivets.

Michael

PS: I've bought 3 sets of the quickboost drums; 2 for the boat - because I also want to install ammo racks to the wall beside the torpedotubes - and 1 for my Ju88
awiskerke
Visit this Community
Netherlands
Joined: December 09, 2008
KitMaker: 285 posts
Armorama: 4 posts
Posted: Friday, June 05, 2009 - 04:41 PM UTC
Looks fine Michael, I especially like the seat supports. I wonder if you plan to buy the Eduard sets. I might buy the set that contains the gunshields but the general set is no longer of much use to me. Besides, I find them terribly expensive for what is offered , prices do not include VAT and the latter contains many parts that cannot be used for Lang or Ha-Jü. I will wait for a bit though, perhaps Griffin Models might make a set for the Italeri kit in the near future?

Arjan
Robert75013
Visit this Community
Paris, France
Joined: March 08, 2009
KitMaker: 242 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Friday, June 05, 2009 - 05:35 PM UTC
Great job Michael. Your idea for the seat supports will be mine soon... the time for me to finish the gangplank and get brass wire and tube!

I agree with you Arjan, Eduard's main set is much, too much over priced. Griffin Models, White Enseign Models, Lion Roar, might as well produce an upgrade kit since they did it for the1:72 scale... and at a better rate in a close future maybe. Who knows.

Robert

Hey, Mom's gonna be happy. Just got promoted as a lance-corporal. Beers are on me!
Gremlin56
Joined: October 30, 2005
KitMaker: 3,897 posts
Armorama: 30 posts
Posted: Saturday, June 06, 2009 - 12:47 AM UTC
Hi Michael, beautiful superdetailing your doing there ! A "riveting"report of your progress
Doesn't look like you need the hideously overpriced Eduard sets Keep the photo's coming, nice to see some serious builds Off for a virtual beer with Robert (he's paying he says ).
Julian

Anyone seen a set of mines for the stern racks yet? I have left one rack empty in the hope that one day somebody will cough up a set .......................................
mcdurd
Visit this Community
Virginia, United States
Joined: March 17, 2005
KitMaker: 121 posts
Armorama: 16 posts
Posted: Saturday, June 06, 2009 - 01:20 PM UTC
Hello all -

to you Robert - congrats sir!

I agree about the Eduard sets as well - in 1/35 scale you are better off with brass wire and plastic stock rather then the flat look of photoetch.

Keep the pictures coming Michael - it looks great thus far!

Chris
Gremlin56
Joined: October 30, 2005
KitMaker: 3,897 posts
Armorama: 30 posts
Posted: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 - 11:31 AM UTC
At last: the mines........................
http://www.clubhyper.com/forums/shipchatframe.htm " TARGET="_blank"> http://www.clubhyper.com/forums/shipchatframe.htm .
Looks like I am going to have to revisit the stern of my S-boat.
Julian
mcdurd
Visit this Community
Virginia, United States
Joined: March 17, 2005
KitMaker: 121 posts
Armorama: 16 posts
Posted: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 - 11:36 AM UTC
Hello all -

Seen here:

http://www.clubhyper.com/forums/shipchatframe.htm

Cammett mines and dingy available! The mines look excellent. You are all welcome since they timed the release date for after I finished my S-100.

Chris
Robert75013
Visit this Community
Paris, France
Joined: March 08, 2009
KitMaker: 242 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 - 02:50 PM UTC
Does anybody know if Brian Balkwill will propose "soon" the long curved racks that go with them? That would be nice!

Robert
dsotm
Visit this Community
England - East Midlands, United Kingdom
Joined: August 13, 2005
KitMaker: 356 posts
Armorama: 290 posts
Posted: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 - 06:35 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Does anybody know if Brian Balkwill will propose "soon" the long curved racks that go with them? That would be nice!

Robert



Hi Robert
First just a small correction - I do not work for Cammetts but help Robin from time to time with news items and stuff.

Robin and I have chatted about the long rails. There is some discussion as to what they were actually used for - maybe you guys can help. In the drawings I am restoring they are one of three deck options depending on the mission. As far as we can tell the mission options were:

Torpedoes + depth charges (no long rails + special depth charge rails)
Torpedoes + max of six large mines (no long rails + short mine rails as found in kit)
Mines (long rail sets)

There are several reference images which show mines on S-boats. The problem is we only have one which shows the long rails being installed and they are referred to as 'mine rails'. The other problem is that If the long rails are installed they appear to extend all the way up to the back of the torpedo tubes - this means if installed there would be no spare torpedo racks on the decks.

This makes sense if the rails are fully loaded with mines BUT - we have no images showing more than a total of six mines on the decks (a very good one exists from the BA of a docked boat). Added to this is the weight factor - the larger mines weighed around 500kg each. From other references we have seen most captains would restrict total torpedoes carried to four because of trim problems carrying six. This is a total weight of 6 tons. If we translate that to the mines we are looking at a total of twelve (but have no photographic evidence)

If they were laying Anti-sweep floats (page 57 of Labourdettes S-Boote) they could probably carry a lot more as they were much lighter. Again though - we have no images.

Conclusion
At the moment we do not know why these rails were so long - anyone that can shed some light would help. If it can be justified as an option production could start on resin or etched versions

Brian
Silantra
Visit this Community
Putrajaya, Malaysia
Joined: March 04, 2004
KitMaker: 2,474 posts
Armorama: 881 posts
Posted: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 - 08:26 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Hello all -

Seen here:

http://www.clubhyper.com/forums/shipchatframe.htm

Cammett mines and dingy available! The mines look excellent. You are all welcome since they timed the release date for after I finished my S-100.

Chris



The mines look delicious... is there anything like that in 1/72??

Gotrek58
Visit this Community
Nordrhein-Westfalen, Germany
Joined: January 11, 2009
KitMaker: 624 posts
Armorama: 259 posts
Posted: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 - 10:47 AM UTC
Hello Brian,
this are the mines, normally layed by s-boats ( Hans Frank: German S-Boats inb action in WW2):
EMC Einheitsmine Typ C (general issue type C) anchor and cable weight 1,135 kg
UMA U-Bootmine Typ A (u-boat mine type A) anchor and cable weight 812 kg
UMB U-Bootmine Typ B (u-boat mine type B) anchor and cable weight 634 kg
LMB Luftmine Typ B (aerial mine type B) ground mine weight 950 kg
LMF Luftmine Typ F (aerial mine type F) ancor and cable weight 1,050 kg
SprB Sprengboje (minefield protection expl. buoy) weight 200 kg
RB Reißboje (minefield protection drag-buoy) weight 877 kg
so most of those weapons were heavier than 600 kg.

"Die deutschen Schnellboote by Gerhard Hümmelchen - nice name: little bumble-bee, but here ) I've read the stories about the last sorties of the 4th S-boat Flotilla: he writes e.g.: 6 boats in action and 24 mine layed = no more than 4 mines on one boat!
On the pics showing S-204 + S-205 at Felixstowe the curved rails are not reaching the torpedo tubes (like on the S-100 drawing on the Prinz Eugen site) and the 4 torpedo racks on each side are still visible!
I think the long curved rails were for the "lightweight" Sprengbojen / SprBs.
.. but on my old destroyer "Bayern" (D-183) there are mine-rails reaching from the superstructure to the stern, but we also used them to load the ASW-torpedo tubes or to transport the torpedos on little carriages...

Michael

PS: I just ordered the mines; they will look great on my S-205 with its Italeri rails!
awiskerke
Visit this Community
Netherlands
Joined: December 09, 2008
KitMaker: 285 posts
Armorama: 4 posts
Posted: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 - 10:47 AM UTC
Hi gents,
To answer Brian's question: I've thought about this as well (weight of mines) and I think the long rails were primarily used to get a more even weight distribution. Julian at some point made a remark about the unfavourable trim of the boat with a full load of mines on the stern (the short rails) which made me think about this. Zaidi: WEM or Schatton perhaps?

Cheers,

Arjan
dsotm
Visit this Community
England - East Midlands, United Kingdom
Joined: August 13, 2005
KitMaker: 356 posts
Armorama: 290 posts
Posted: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 - 11:03 AM UTC
Guys

Thanks for the speedy replies! My refs for mine weights are rubbish

Regarding the extent of the long rails - the drawing I am referring to is an original 1943 Italian one copied from Lurssens and the rails clearly go all the way up to the torpedo tubes. What is also apparent (I just noticed it) is that the short mine rails have a wider guage than the longer set. This would seem indicate that
the long curved rails were used for other types of mines. This appears to be borne out by the image I referred to earlier where Anti-sweep mines can clearly be seen stacked in pairs on the long curved rail sets. Again though they are all at the back of the boat - perhaps there were a lot more before the image was taken?

Arjan
I think the trim idea is a good one . I do have an image though that shows all six mines next to each other at the rear of the boat. Do you think was just a dockside storage method and they moved them before going to sea?

*Edit - just reread the last paragraph. In light of the Larger mines being launched from the larger guage short rails, trim would no longer be a factor as all six were definitely stacked next to each other on the short rails - and not stacked in the narrower guage long rails

Brian

Silantra
Visit this Community
Putrajaya, Malaysia
Joined: March 04, 2004
KitMaker: 2,474 posts
Armorama: 881 posts
Posted: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 - 01:21 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Zaidi: WEM or Schatton perhaps?

Cheers,

Arjan



Arjan, cant find WEM mines but found Schatton's but no photos... it's in german anyway....

72161 5 in Epoxid-Resin gegossene German SMA Minen..

dont know how to proceed then.....

Gremlin56
Joined: October 30, 2005
KitMaker: 3,897 posts
Armorama: 30 posts
Posted: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 - 01:30 PM UTC
Hi Arjan and Brian,
The reference to the adverse effect on the boats trim was made in view of the very, very large mine I purchased from the Sockelshop. Check out the older photós of the "mother of all mines" somewhere at the beginning of this thread here, six of those would have done rather nasty things I would hazard to say. Cammetts mines are a completely different animal I am very tempted to take the boat down from shelf and add some mines. Finish off my first though.
Cheers,
Julian
Okay, I'm a softy, this will save you all the harrowing experience of digging through all the cobwebs at the beginning of this thread:
Gremlin56
Joined: October 30, 2005
KitMaker: 3,897 posts
Armorama: 30 posts
Posted: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 - 02:54 PM UTC
Hi ZaidiMD,
There is an e-mail adress on Robert's website. Robert speaks and writes excellent English so if you mail him stating the number of the article you want to order things more or less sort themselves out

(Robert being Robert Schatton of course)
awiskerke
Visit this Community
Netherlands
Joined: December 09, 2008
KitMaker: 285 posts
Armorama: 4 posts
Posted: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 - 03:09 PM UTC
I doubt if these SMA mines can be used for a Schnellboot though. I haven't been able to find a pic but they were meant for U-Boote. I haven't been able to find any manufacturer that makes 1/72 mines or the long minerails.

Arjan
Gotrek58
Visit this Community
Nordrhein-Westfalen, Germany
Joined: January 11, 2009
KitMaker: 624 posts
Armorama: 259 posts
Posted: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 - 06:34 PM UTC
Hi gents,
german u-boat-mines were of two basic types, the torpedo launched TM mines (Torpedomine) and the shaft launched SM mines (Schachtmine). The TM mines were launched from the standard 21 inch (53,3 cm) torpedo tube.
The SMA is a moored mine, similar to its counterpart the TMA, but with a much larger explosive charge. It could be laid only by specialized minelayers with vertical shafts attached.
Length/Diameter: 7.1ft (2.15m)/4.4ft (1.33m)
Maximum Depth: 250m
Warhead: 350kg, total weight: 1,600kg
The TMA was a moored mine, which meant that it was secured by a heavy anchor and a cable attached to the mine. The mine floated above the surface, while the anchor secured its position in the sea. Two could be carried in each torpedo tube.
Length/Diameter: 11.1ft (3.38m)/21in (533mm)
Maximum Depth: 270m
Warhead: 215kg


More german mines and their description: http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WAMGER_Mines.htm

@ Zaidi M.D:
Mines in 1:72 are produced by CMK and available from here:
http://www.modellbau-universe.de/produkt;minen-und-zubehoer;CMK~ML80307;6;1;1;0.htm?ref=froogleCMK~ML80307
Nice little things :


Michael
Silantra
Visit this Community
Putrajaya, Malaysia
Joined: March 04, 2004
KitMaker: 2,474 posts
Armorama: 881 posts
Posted: Thursday, June 11, 2009 - 04:15 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Hi gents,
german u-boat-mines were of two basic types, the torpedo launched TM mines (Torpedomine) and the shaft launched SM mines (Schachtmine). The TM mines were launched from the standard 21 inch (53,3 cm) torpedo tube.
The SMA is a moored mine, similar to its counterpart the TMA, but with a much larger explosive charge. It could be laid only by specialized minelayers with vertical shafts attached.
Length/Diameter: 7.1ft (2.15m)/4.4ft (1.33m)
Maximum Depth: 250m
Warhead: 350kg, total weight: 1,600kg
The TMA was a moored mine, which meant that it was secured by a heavy anchor and a cable attached to the mine. The mine floated above the surface, while the anchor secured its position in the sea. Two could be carried in each torpedo tube.
Length/Diameter: 11.1ft (3.38m)/21in (533mm)
Maximum Depth: 270m
Warhead: 215kg


More german mines and their description: http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WAMGER_Mines.htm

@ Zaidi M.D:
Mines in 1:72 are produced by CMK and available from here:
http://www.modellbau-universe.de/produkt;minen-und-zubehoer;CMK~ML80307;6;1;1;0.htm?ref=froogleCMK~ML80307
Nice little things :


Michael



Mikey, thanks bro.... the mines looks delicious..
At first i thought of scratchbulding the mines and the trolley but seing this cute mines was super tempting... anyway, any chance anyone here will used 2 of them... i may only need 2 of them and it looks like the CMK box consist of 4 sets... if anyone got extra mines, i'm willing to pay for them.... pls PM me just in case.... otherwise i had no choice but getting the mines..

and thanks for the info on the Mines..... this thread is really informatics ... learn so many things here.....


Anyway, just got 2 PE set from Griffon for my 1/72 boats..... will kick off soon

Zaidi