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Armor/AFV: Axis - WWII
Armor and ground forces of the Axis forces during World War II.
Hosted by Darren Baker
DML#6383 Tiger 1 Turret Zimmerit Mod
vanhall
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Groningen, Netherlands
Joined: January 23, 2007
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Posted: Friday, April 10, 2009 - 10:17 AM GMT+7
Their paint certainly does smell good..
But the thinners is knock out material..

I like the pre-shading, should show through very nicely. Looking forward to the 'Dunkelgelb'..
barkmann424
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Posted: Saturday, April 11, 2009 - 04:51 AM GMT+7
Hi Jim, hello all! High(Literally) Grant! You weren't kidding about the potency of the thinners vapour[quote]Their paint certainly does smell good..
But the thinners is knock out material.. It does flow well and has a long window between AB tip cleaning though, so positives and negatives probably outweigh each other... The children smiled for most of the day! Must be looking forward to the 'Atmosphere' over the holiday weekend...

I sprayed the Mr Hobby 'Panzer Color' H403 'Dunkelgelb' at 50/50 mix with the Mr Color thinner. It covers really well, darker than I expected though! Good job it went over a light primer. Surprisingly it goes down very flat, without that soft sheen of the comparable Tamiya, Acrylics when thinned with X20a thinners. This series of paints is definitely worth investigating further. Right 'proof of the pudding' time!







So I will give it another light coat later, when 'The Happy Breed' go out, sugar rush is bad enough!
...And Jim! Thank you for your extremely kind words. The camo scheme will be 'three tone' in broadish swathes and stripes... Here is a photo snapped by 'Lieutenant Bill Cotton' as he casually walked around Villers Bocage setting alight the knocked out and abandonned German armour, deny the s.SS.Pz.-Abt.101 and the Panzer 'Lehr' any chance of recovery and repair! Now that would be some diorama. Here is the pre-toasted '112'.

(Thank you to Mr Mike Kenny for providing this photograph)
I think that we all inspire each other, modelling for me is in a 'Golden Age' right now, beyond what the Manufacturers are doing to win our hard earned pennies, for me it's all modeller generated, with each of us adding to the technique and knowledge data banks. With this blog we have the chance to compare and experiment with a few things, I have learnt quite a few things myself whilst sifting, preparing and compiling this blog... I really like the idea of colour modulation Especially for dio pieces, where the light needs to hit the vehicle and figures from a presumed direction, 'Adam Wilders' article in AFV Modeller is usually to be found in my vicinity at the moment, the combination of all the past,present and future painting techniques and hypothesise inspire me... After all it is how I approach painting or illustration in the 2D form. So to me we are all part of a never ending jigsaw, that has it's entry and exit points for the individual modeller, right the way through from 'dry-brushing' to 'colour modulation' and beyond... I'm waffling again aren't I I will really have to open the windows today!

Right see you all later, and thanks for looking in... Phil.
vanhall
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Groningen, Netherlands
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Posted: Saturday, April 11, 2009 - 03:22 PM GMT+7
Great colour and pre-shading Phil. I might have to add this pot to the collection.

PS: any reason why the headlight cable's not fitted?
cach7
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New York, United States
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Posted: Saturday, April 11, 2009 - 03:54 PM GMT+7
Phil, what color would you use for under damaged Zimm?
markchis
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Kuwait / لعربية
Joined: February 09, 2009
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Posted: Saturday, April 11, 2009 - 10:33 PM GMT+7
HI Phil!! wow this is informative and a great build!! it is coming on a treat.

those Gunze paints do they leave a very smooth and satin finish? cheers from Mark
barkmann424
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Posted: Monday, April 13, 2009 - 06:18 AM GMT+7
Hi Folks! Got some good weather around here today... So I thought about getting some daylight chromatic reference done on the Mr Hobby Panzer Colour H403. As it looks very different under various lighting conditions
Hi Grant! Don't worry about the Bosch light cable, I'll put it on before the camo overspray, along with the turret stowage bin, I have undercoated this in red primer, to see if it gives a kind of 'sub-modulation' to the colour! Which leads into the colour under the zimmerit... Hi Mike! Now this has been the subject of many intense discussions on many sites. Some of the most informative coming from members on Missing-Lynx, there are many threads on this issue. If the zimmerit has been torched then we appear to have a very pale ash colouration with the primer obviously darkening somewhat... Now if the paste has been dislodged by small arms, winging shots or elemental flaking (this can be seen more on the eastern front) the primer shows through... Thought to be in most cases 'Rot Oxid'.
Here is a good shot of a Panther with flaking and damaged zimmerit.

And some of a Tiger glacis plate, if you look very closely you can see the residual zimmerit pattern left behind.

Now that would make a swell mantlepiece eh?
Hi Mark, your Tiger over on Model Armour is looking great, the PE is reall setting it apart. The Gunze Sangyo go down with a soft sheen and very smooth tooth to the surface, It appears to not really alter very much even at a greater distance at higher pressures, I know that Tamiya and Humbrols tend to go a bit grainy at this kind of treatment through an Airbrush. So up to now Gunze have really caught my attention. Okay onto the daylight shots, I gave the hull, turret and running gear another light coat at 60/40 thinner to paint ratio this time, all new territory with these paints, so a little experimentation won't go amiss eh?



Then with a mix of 30% H403 10% Mr Base White 1000 (worth a go, as I dont have any other colours except the Basic Panzer Color set2... Though I will definitely be getting more) and 60% Mr Colour Thinner. Then with reduced pressure concentrated on applying highlights to the larger panels and areas that would be affected by a high afternoon natural lighting effect of a pleasant Normandy day in June!






So with that done, I suppose it's time for the camoflage! As you can see from the 'pre-toasted' image posted of '112' on the previous update it varies somewhat from the kits instructions scheme.
Righto, stuff to do after the 'sugar rush apocalypse' of yesterday... See you all soon.

Phil.
barkmann424
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Posted: Friday, April 17, 2009 - 06:24 AM GMT+7
Hello everbody! Sorry for the lack of activity of late O ne thing and another you know! The main thing being moisture in the mix!!! My always excellent compressor suddenly stopped filtering moisture from the feeds, so I have had to overhaul the regulator assembly, moisture trap, o-rings and gaskets. I will have to get another pre-AB moisture trap, as I am now paranoid over the dreaded water splatter !
Anyway back to pleasanter things. I am now happy with the differentation of tones upon the basecoated parts. The light sits on it really well now, still looks a 'bit mad' like but it will all come out in the 'wash' eh? I have taken the photographs under a tru-light bulb from my light box, upon a white background... You will have to bear with me on the photography skills, I tend to take a few 'hundred' at each stage then cull (more like massacre) them down to the usable few. Anyway for your consideration #6383 OOB in it's Gunze Sangyo Mr Hobby Panzer Colors H403. hull and turret have been primered with Mr Base White 100 and pre-shaded, the running gear primered and sheet exhaust shrouds with GamesWorkshop Chaos Black Primer and the Turret Stowage Bin and the underbelly in Games Workshop 'Medichite Red' Foundation paint thinned with Vallejo thinner in equal parts! It does give a nice hull red oxide tone.








Right then time to put the stripes on this Tigger!

Thanks for looking... Phil
thedoog
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Posted: Friday, April 17, 2009 - 08:09 AM GMT+7
Phil,

That's a sincerely nice job of building and painting, but I would have to say that the Dunklegelb still seems a bit too dark for scale. Especially if you go into doing any kind of raw umber washes on this, it will definitely bring it down too dark even still. Real DY looks like a light tan in scale. When you look at a 1' X 1' paint chip, (as manufacturers do) it might look dark, but in scale, the effect of light dispersion makes it a lot lighter. Consider this authentic photo of a Hetzer.



I wouldn't go for the red primer on the hull either, even if it is a nice shade. These hulls weren't painted "on the ground", they were hoisted in the air on an assembly and then painted overall.
barkmann424
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Posted: Saturday, April 18, 2009 - 07:03 PM GMT+7
Hi Karl! Hi everybody! Some good points there Karl,I myself think that the Gunze Sangyo Panzer Colors H403 is probably one of the darkest 'Dunkelgelbs' that I have ever used... And thats on a white primer coat! The weathering should tone it down quite a bit though, I think I have achieved what I intended though with modulating the fixed items such as the exhaust shrouds and turret stowage bin, giving them different primer coats or pre-shading tones. The 'Dunkelgelb' chestnut rumbles on and on doesn't it? But as this is a OOB trying to stick to the instructions including colour chart, I'll let this one off the hook in respect to nailing the RAL7028 with the other manufacturers takes on Dark Yellow. David Byrden over on a thread on Missing-Lynx , that in his opinion preferred a Humbrol shade, as it was closest to some relics he had. Interestingly enough there are some images of some artifacts from the late western front on a few recent topics on ML at the moment, and the tones and shade vary considerably depending on the item coated and or it's sub primer coat.
The 'Rot Oxid' hull belly is a bit of a hypothesis, due to the simplification of the finishing process at Kassel near the time of production termination of the Tiger Ausf E, when production of the Tiger 1 reached a peak even with disruption of the assembly and finishing lines by allied bombing... Just a thought, maybe corners were cut such as base-coating already primer protected areas not normally in view.
Well the AB/Compressor has not played up to much, just the odd moisture 'flash' Though nothing major, thankfully... And the weathering and filters should take care of the imperfections as they are surface level. Another thing that I need to look closer at with the GS paints is the thinning as the normal 5/6-1 cut for soft edge camo is a bit to heavy, ant separates quicker than Tamiya or Vallejo, not played with the Lifecolor set yet. Right not a lot other than the camo job photo-shoot then! I tried to closely follow the scheme from M. Kenny's pre inferno photograph by Lt. Bill Cotton on the glacis and right-hand turret side, then followed OKW procedure And tried to match the other planes to the style of the pattern, it works when you turn the turret through 360 degrees in 90 degree quadrants... I know I'm losing the plot again. Here are the images.
First up the Schokoladenbraun branches/bars/stripes whatever you want to call them really!






Then the Olivgrun...






And a quick check against the reference...


I know, I'll finish the painting as well, I intend to complete a colour plate for each of these Tigers... Fingers crossed eh?

Once again thanks for looking. and for being patient. I am trying to speed things up

Cheers Phil. Once agian thanks for the input Karl, it really does keep the grey matter ticking.
thedoog
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Posted: Saturday, April 18, 2009 - 09:21 PM GMT+7
Roger, Phil---nice camo, too, by the way.

I think you may misunderstand my point, with respect to your post above. I am sure that the DY that many people may cite from a paint chip or a piece--such as maybe a tool, or part from a real panzer--will be as dark as Mr Byrden and others would allege.My point was that, from a scale modeling point-of-view, the "scale effect" of painting the DY base coat in an unlightened out-of-the-bottle shade will invariable result in a correct, but too-dark shade.

That sounds paradoxical, I know, but it has to do with the effect of light on a small object vs a large one, A large object--especially one as huge as a Tiger--would refract (reflect?) much more light from the finish, thereby being perceived by the eye as lighter than the actual paint color up close.

I have tested this phenomenon by finding a chip of "Olivgelb" from a Leopard I at Aberdeen in the 80's. When I painted my Tamiya Leopard I in a shade almost exactly matching a reference photo taken of the very same tank, the actual color of the paint chip was noticeably darker than the perceived shade. "Scale effect" was the culprit.

Anyway, ti's just one "school of thought" pertaining to model painting, Some think it's complete gibberish, and I'll admit that I am one of its biggest proponents.

Your theory about the red underside is plausible, now that I hear it. Your Tiger is looking fine as is.
Jupiterblitz
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Posted: Saturday, April 18, 2009 - 09:27 PM GMT+7
It's right what Karl wrote about the effect of colours in relation to the scale.

The smaller a model (scale) the darker the same color seems to be.
barkmann424
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Posted: Sunday, April 19, 2009 - 05:34 AM GMT+7
Hi Karl! Hi Marco! I think in the future I would really cut the GS H403 down with a lot lighter tone. The actual yellow pigment is really strong in this stuff, knocking it down with the thinners just seems to nullify any of the white that is in there, I think your views on the 'scale effect' are very valid. When illustrating I tend to work from a very bleached pale initial layer of colour for most subjects as 'scale effect' can darken substantially on 2D work also, so as much light has to be left in the fields as possible. Maybe we could get a collective view on where to go with the mixing of 'scale effect' paints as an option for those of us who want to approach the painting of models from differing schools of thought and disciplines. I am still mulling over putting a AB filter coat over the lighted planes of the Tiger, have any of you guys tried this? I was thinking tree cover on one side of the N175, or shadows from a two story building in the towns centre, shortly before the crossroads of the Rue Pasteur and the junction of the town square where '112' was ambushed and flank shot. Thank you both for adding this very interesting view on this thread, one I need to explore a lot more. I think with the level of modelling out ther and all the many great views on technique, style and schools of thought, the world of armour modelling is less of an unfinished jigsaw now that it has ever been. I suppose that it lies in the fact that with so many forums and arena to display, talk and share, we are all learning a lot more than we would have done in the past... Thanks for the kind words Karl and Marco, I think you are right on this subject... There must be an awful lot of dark and moody panzers in Japan eh?

Right gotta blast! Phil.
thedoog
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Posted: Sunday, April 19, 2009 - 10:53 AM GMT+7
G'mornin' Phil!
I'm not sure if you could get a "consensus" on ratios or whatever, as far as lightening certain hues of paint--I always just "eyeball it" to some degree. And mostly, I just lighten base coats--DY, PG, OD--and then add in lightened coats in the interior panels. I don't usually, however, lighten the camo colors much at all.

I tend to mix my Tamiya acrylic Dark Yellow by actually dumping about 30% into a bottle of white--it tints much easier in this manner, without wasting a lot of white paint for a little effect. That way I get a nice bottle of ready-to-paint base coat that is consistent. I also will, at times, mix in maybe another large dollop of "Buff" or even a light gray to tint the color a little more, with the idea of bringing the color around in subsequent weathering coats.

Here's a little bit of the colors and progression of a recent build, the Sdkfx 251/17. You can see how light and "gray" my base coat is?

Camo colors added...

And then where it finally winds up with the weathering...


You can see the obvious darkening of the coat, and how it comes into "spec". I never use a "standard formula" though, as I like to have small variety between models.

I used a lot of MIG Pre-mixed filters on this, as well as pigments.
bizzychicken
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Posted: Sunday, April 19, 2009 - 06:25 PM GMT+7
Hi Phil Sorry missed so much, been very bizzy That Dunkelgelb has a very warm colour to it, almost looks like Braun RAL 8020 North Africa. I liked the way you lightened the hull front plate turret top and sides, skirts and rear mud guards "Adam modulation Styley" I would go with Karl on this one, shame it wasn't bleached a few shades brighter/ lighter. I love the slightly greenish colour of the Dunkelgelb on the wheels nice contrast. camo looks spot on, very close to 112 the big patch of plain DG around the hull MG looks good. A very chocolate(plain to dairy) on the Braun and I like the green. All the colours are slightly Dark so they all match. So I dont see a problem. Maybe a much lighter wash or AB dusting and the whole tiger will lighten or the slighter overall darker colour is caused by early morning dew(just thinking aloud) for the Dio you are going for at a much later date. Looking good, like I've said the overall camo looks spot on mate One observation, when tow cables were sprayed when the camo was applied at unit level in the field. once they had been used and moved, then there would be a line of Dunkelgelb, sort of shadow were the cable had been in the 1st place. That sounds like quite a nice touch, only thought about this when looking at your cables on the back of the Tiger. Anyway looking forward to the Bocarge weathering LOL Geraint
bizzychicken
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Posted: Monday, April 20, 2009 - 02:41 PM GMT+7
Phil, well worth a look. I've been on the MM site and there's a nice load of referance pic's of the Vimoutiers Tiger. It belonged to panzer Abteilung 503 and run out of fuel leaving Falaise. It has the late steel round wheels and the typical wear to its tracks. It also has a very special camo paint job, don't know how original it is but well worth a look Geraint
barkmann424
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Posted: Monday, April 20, 2009 - 04:51 PM GMT+7
Hi Karl! Hi Geraint! Sorry for the delay in replying, first day back at school for the tribe, tactical and logistical planning starts the day before, a quick mini invasion by the squad then a lengthy de-briefing for all!
Hey Karl! That Skdfz 251/17 looks great, I like the way the camo is really muted after the final weathering stage, I'll follow this route of a pastel grey primer and very light base coat for the modded #6383, after all is is supposed to be about comparison after all! Also the modern 'standard' black primer, and also have a go with Jon Haywards 'red oxide' primer start, I am really happy about the way the turret stowage bin has turned out with it's 'rot oxid' preshade, the dents and dings really work visually. Though I fancy completing the hull prior to factory applied 'Dunkelgelb' basecoat, with the zimmerit primered in it's 'ochre' natural state prior to painting, just another method of pre-shading I reckon!
On the OOB #6383, I have spent the time available lightening the centre of the DY areas a little. I think the way forward after this will be some oil/spirit filters of whitened yellows, it worked on the test piece so fingers crossed that it works on the Tiger itself!
Hey Geraint! Thanks for the heads up on the Vimoutiers Tiger, always like a good wander around a walk a round! It will be interesting in the next few years to see what scheme it will be re-painted to, I wouldn't mind having a go at the re-zimmeriting of it! Lisa isn't keen on the idea of me building a 1/2 scale water firing Tiger Turret in the back garden...
Right got some work to finish off, back tomorrow with an update. Cheers for looking in...

Phil.
barkmann424
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Posted: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 - 02:24 AM GMT+7
Morning everybody! Good evening to all! Just a quick drop in with the progress on the painting of #6383 '112' OOB. I have AB'd a light mix of the GS/PC H403 with a little more Mr Basecoat white 1000, into the centre of the larger remaining patches of 'Dunkelgelb', to give the oil wash a better chance of working it's magic. This has been biased more to the front left hand side and roof areas of the Tiger, due to the time of day that it travelled along the N175 in a south westerly route towards Villers Bocage from hill/point 213, with it being early afternoon as the 1st Kompanies Tigers approached the town. The test piece of turret came out well with this procedure so the Tiger will get the same 'treatment' to lighten up the DY basecoat, before it receives it's obligatory 'hardcoat' either Future/Klear or Games Workshops 'Purity Seal' (don't tell Oliver! ) then it will be decal time and some serious weathering... Along with finishing '121' #6383 'modded' ready for painting, those vision slits are getting their comeuppance later... As the drill is out! This can be done whilst the washes and weathering layers on '112' #6383 dry and settle down. Right I'll shut up and post the images!



Right see you all later for another update! Phil.
Lucky13
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Posted: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 - 05:27 AM GMT+7
I say! Jolly good show old bean! Rather spiffy, what! Carry on!


Next pinyt is on me.....
bizzychicken
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Posted: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 - 07:29 AM GMT+7
Phil The lightening of the Dunkelgelb has really sharpend this Tigers stripes. Looking good. Whats that GW clear cote like? As good as Future? Geraint
thedoog
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Posted: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 - 09:18 AM GMT+7
Phil,

GOOD CALL!!!!

That looks great! A bit harsh without some weathering to tie it all together, but some washes and all the other tricks willl smooth ot all out perfectly! Honestly, I think you found exactly what this build needed for what ailed it!

NOW I'm getting excited about it!
vanhall
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Posted: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 - 09:42 AM GMT+7
Camo looks spot on Phil, great stuff.. I think the 3 Gunze colours go really well together.
As said, their DY could be a little dark for some tastes but your lightened effect has worked.
That's probably why I always use Lifecolor's DY now, it can look too light when first done but that allows me to go as heavy as I want with washes..
Looking forward the next installment of '112'.
Torchy
#047
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Posted: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 - 11:24 AM GMT+7
Stunning mate
barkmann424
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Posted: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 - 07:02 PM GMT+7
Hi everybody! I have gone for the Games Workshop 'Purity Seal' for the hard-coat prior to the decals and weathering (Hey Geraint, this stuff is great, very fine hi-satin finish, goes on great, crystal clear and free if you have a teenage son into 40K, I nearly dropped dead though last time I had to replace some 'Chaos Black surreptitiously... It's eight quid a can now, though it does go far. )
Thanks for the faith in me Karl, we pulled this from the zip-loc bag just in time eh? I will get some images done in the morning, of the filters on the lightened areas of DY. It looks nice and vibrant now, with lots more chromatic variation. I think warmer washes with a leaning towards raw umber/burnt sienna rather than polluting the tonal shade with lamp black will keep this Tiger sun kissed rather than heavily shadowed. Just have to work out the actual weathering build up to balance, from the weather reports of the period relating to Normandy in early-mid June 1944. Though these Tigers did travel via the adequate road system to and around the front on the whole, so dust rather than any heavy mud build up with the odd mud splash from any puddles encountered...
You were spot on with the GS paints Grant,thanks for the nod, the three tones do balance really well together, I think I will be getting more to play around with... And I am going to use a LifeColor set or two on one of the Tigers, so your expertise and knowledge of this range will be greatly appreciated.
Hey Jan! Hi Andy! Thanks for the kind words, I'm glad you like this Tiger, I must say it has grown on me, and I am starting to see the point of it... ish! Though an un-zimmed mid would have been better! But a great kit if zimmerit was a put off for those wanting to build a late Tiger.
Right I'll see if I can get the decals on, before retiring for the evening.

Once again... Thanks a lot for following this. Phil.
bizzychicken
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Posted: Thursday, April 23, 2009 - 12:48 AM GMT+7
Used to love 40 k started with a blue Ultra Marine unit. Ended with fluro pink tecno troops, loved thoses battles with my mates. Aint cheap now. Funny how this build has turned you around on Dragon Zim kits. turned me on, maybe it is time to start the Panther D with Zim. Needed a kick up the backside and this thread has done it! Thankyou my friend, I've got all the referance , all the plastic, metal and resin. Yes a BefehsPanther is on its way. Cheers Geraint
barkmann424
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Posted: Friday, April 24, 2009 - 07:44 AM GMT+7
Hello people! Hey Geraint! How you doin'? Right it's official then... I quite like this kit! I would like it even more without an un-zimmed turret included! It's has got all the other plain un-pasted armour panel parts included after all... And it did have some room left in the box! Though I still prefer the other DML Tigers still, though the Dragon never sleeps for long under the Lonely Mountain eh? As promised the chromatic 'yellow' oil filters have been applied with Games Workshop 'purity seal' lightly spray coated from the rattle can.




And with the decals in place, 112 gets tagged!




Whilst placing and fixing the Balkenkreuz on the hull sides, the little problem of the depth of the ridges used to depict the zimmerit on #6383 came to the fore!
As you can see from the following images, because of the overall surface area that the decal has had to cover taking into account the vertical 'pleating' needed to embed the transfer into the pattern, this seriously affects the vertical dimensions of the cross. I think on the 'modded' #6383 we will be going with stencils! I think what would be needed in future decal options for such heavy zimmerit patterns (though the Panther G and Elefant zimmerit depictions look excellent ) A Balkenkreuz with elongated vertical proportions to accommodate the shortening effect of the zimmerits ridges. It was one of the features that I noted upon first inspection of the kits zimmerit moulding as opposed to other zimmerit solutions whether they be DIY or After-Market. Ah well it's all a learning curve eh?


Right I suppose the next logical step is the running gear and pin and detail washes? I will see if an extension from 'donor' to the Balkenkreuz where needed will remedy it's stunted appearance!

Thanks again for dropping in on this... err Blog. Phil.