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Armor/AFV: Axis - WWII
Armor and ground forces of the Axis forces during World War II.
Hosted by Darren Baker
DML#6383 Tiger 1 Turret Zimmerit Mod
barkmann424
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Posted: Sunday, December 28, 2008 - 07:02 AM GMT+7
Hello All! After some serious coaxing, poking and deliberations, I have decided to set about making alterations to the DML #6383 Tiger 1 Late with Zimmerit. My main attention will be to the turret, as this appears to be the area of the kit some modellers are mostly concerned with. I will be 'pasting' and building kits #6416 and #6406 alongside for comparison, incorporating the common accepted zimmerit patterns, that are observered on most images of late Tiger 1's. This will be achieved via the use of 'rolling' tools, as I personaly prefer the result these give.



For the 'Heavier' most common pattern, I will utilise a gear taken from the inertia mechanism of a venetian blind! (Hi-Tech stuff so far eh! )
To replicate the smaller less often observed pattern, I will wield the excellent 'Lion Roar' roller application tool.
Whilst upon the DML pattern, the use of various standard tools and mediums will be used.

My first observations of the pattern on #6383 is that the hull is very crisply sculpted and defined, while maybe slightly to deep and on the large side. Also a bit on the neat side, especialy on the hull rear plate around the track tension covers and other fittings. Remembering that the paste was applied by workers under enormous strains and pressure to achieve production quotas, and not by artisans! Moving onto the turret... This has caused me a lot of dead brain cells, that have been expended in reference, research and general 'messing' with pattern depiction.

I really believed that Dragon would be able to deliver, a realistic depiction of the 'standard' turret pattern for the Tiger 1, but alas due to the limits of moulding technology as it stand (though DML seem to lead the field with new techniques and methods used in the industry) this is the pattern that was achieved. I supose a modellers with a wide level of reference, materials, tools, products and shared ingenuity and experience, we have a vast pool to dip into when it comes to 'finding a way around it' that Manufacturer's within a very competive market don't have the luxury of.

Anyways enough of the rambling (you will find this to be one of my most annoying points what was it that Oscar Wilde wrote about short notes! ) and onto the Tiger Fest.





These are comparison shots, taken in order to show the pattern differences and results achieved using different tools and techniques.
More later back to the photography, I shall endeavour to keep this blog going as smoothly as possible, with regular updates... But as we all know 'Chaos rules it all'!

Cheers Phil.
DT61
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Posted: Sunday, December 28, 2008 - 07:08 AM GMT+7
Great build / blog. Have book marked this in order to follow.

Darryl
Canjuaan
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Posted: Sunday, December 28, 2008 - 07:35 AM GMT+7
Although the "wide" Zimmerit pattern on the turret was more common than the small one, I like the second better. So I'm fine with DML's molded Zimmerit. But compared to the other patterns shown here, I like the Lion Roar result best.

Looking forward to the next steps, this is going to be interesting.
SIRNEIL
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Posted: Sunday, December 28, 2008 - 07:46 AM GMT+7
hello phil
i'm very interested in your build log as i have just started building the 6406 kit but i'm going down the atak resin route.the set that im using is SE35-01 damaged zimmerit with the wide pattern on the turret.are you saying that your going to build three tiger 1's if so then good luck
happy new year
neil.........
newfish
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Posted: Sunday, December 28, 2008 - 08:44 AM GMT+7
very intereasting! i hve just bought my first axis tank i will be watching ths with great intereast

panamadan
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Posted: Sunday, December 28, 2008 - 11:04 AM GMT+7
Phil, I've been kicking around starting the orginial Dragon 3 in 1 Tiger kit, so this will be a informative build. Dan
wbill76
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Posted: Sunday, December 28, 2008 - 02:39 PM GMT+7
Off to a great start Phil, don't let the "chaos" rule too much though as you've set some expectations now regarding updates. Looking forward to watching this one progress.
johnlinford
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Posted: Sunday, December 28, 2008 - 02:50 PM GMT+7
What you got to take into account is that the turret zimmerit was larger/bigger ridges or patterns than the hull , if you want to be really accurate.
So the first two are best . DML looks look they got it right.
I think this will be a busy thread , eh .
barkmann424
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Posted: Sunday, December 28, 2008 - 06:15 PM GMT+7
Hello all!
Thank you for the response and interest in this blog, I will try to keep up to speed on this project,whilst balancing others. These three big cats are destined for a long running Tiger project, depicting the 2./s.SS.Pz.-Abt .101's bivouac alongside the N175 on the 12/13th June '44'. I could not decide which Tiger to model, so decided to do all six! That is until some Tiger anomalies stirred my glue addled imagination.
First off all on my list with this blog, is the removal of some of the sculpted zimmerit from the DML turret. This will include the front areas around the gun trunnion pintles and the patterned areas that cover areas where the turret hatch is seated, along with a little work behind the stowage bin, for seating purposes. This does not need to be removed, as it was applied onto the turret before the turret stowage bin was fitted.



Also on the 'to do' list is to create a chamfered edge around the turret hatch opening, this can be seen on images of this area. So a bit of styrene wrangling before bed, and an update in the morning.

Phil.
barkmann424
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Posted: Monday, December 29, 2008 - 05:44 AM GMT+7
Back again!
Just a quick post, with a few movements forward. These have been to the 'sculpted' turret from #6383. The pattern has now been removed from the areas previously marked, and sub pattern detail by means of 0.3 stock styrene strip added to roughly reproduce the turret front plate ends, that stand proud slightly of the turret above and below the gun trunnion pintle. This feature can be seen in a few images behind the zimmerit on the turrets forward aspect.











The added plate ends will be sanded down a touch, to get closer to the depth required, and 'pasted' over with putty with the smaller pattern rolled into it. Another update later, as this is the season for 'visitations', I will be the genial host and get rid of them as quickly as possible.

Cheers Phil.
barkmann424
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Posted: Monday, December 29, 2008 - 05:58 AM GMT+7
Hi John, I think you are right about it being busy, probably at my end mainly!

Quoted Text

What you got to take into account is that the turret zimmerit was larger/bigger ridges or patterns than the hull , if you want to be really accurate.
So the first two are best . DML looks look they got it right.
I think this will be a busy thread , eh .



On the whole the majority of 'true' lates had the very heavy broad pattern, but there are a few with the smaller pattern, that was very close to the hull type. This image of a final late, I will refer to as the 'Elsdorf Tiger' has the smaller ridges... And quite neat I might add, except for the combat scars. But not very many images can be found as of yet with all the late production features.



Any input welcome, and corrections to my waffling happily accepted!

Phil.
SIRNEIL
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Posted: Monday, December 29, 2008 - 06:14 AM GMT+7
your waffling phil.............

Quoted Text

Any input welcome, and corrections to my waffling happily accepted!


are all part of the enjoyment.
neil.....
barkmann424
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Posted: Tuesday, December 30, 2008 - 05:19 AM GMT+7
Hi Neil, Hi all!
Glad my whettering is entertaining! Just a brief update, not an amazing amount of work has been done, (have been playing with a mini-lathe, tricky stuff! ) Here is the cleaned up 'softened' version. The putty is being rolled as we speak.





This is the paraphenalia that I wil be using... Mr Wittmann looks interested!



I should have the other two turrets 'pasted' and patterned for the next post also. I will take stage by stage WIP shots of these, as this is what most of the correspondence I recieved was related to!

Phil
bizzychicken
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Posted: Tuesday, December 30, 2008 - 08:13 AM GMT+7
Great log. love the Dragon zim kits but as we know they all have they're problems. This will be great to watch. Hope to learn a lot about Zim and its differrant patterns. Cheers
SgtBrown86
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Posted: Tuesday, December 30, 2008 - 09:54 AM GMT+7
I am following this thread with great interest. I'm happy to have my first post here be on this fantastic thread! Great work and more importantly, great research so far.
barkmann424
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Posted: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 - 04:39 AM GMT+7
Hi Geraint, Hi Todd , (glad to have you on board) hello all!
A quick post of the putty and applied pattern, on the DML sculpted turret for now...

The Tamiya epoxy putty was mixed together in equal parts, until an off-white uniform colour was achieved. This stuff is really 'tacky' and will adhere to any smoothish clean surface, one of the great things about it is that it does not sem to like sticking to skin! The other one it being impervious to water, so a little bit of water once the putty is spread onto the 'to be zimmed' area will suffice as a barrier to stop the tools being fouled. I did use Milliput for a while, but found that it could get quite messy as using water starts to dissolve it, and talc and oils can find their way into areas that can come back to haunt you during painting stages. While discussing the mediums I have used when applying a 'scale' zimmerit, I would like to pay my respects and admiration to those modellers, who have achieved an excellent result depicting zimmerit with 'No-Nails' or other similar adhesives... Now personaly that in my experience is truly a feat as all I managed to 'achieve' was a rare ould mess!

Anyways enough of the piffle here are the images of the 'pasted turret!









As you can see from the bottom two shots, the turret is starting to develop an 'individuality'. A little attention to some of the top and bottom turret sides, with very minor damage to zimmerit too be depicted. As these being destined for the 2./s.SS.Pz.-Abt. 101, before any ground combat, the vehicles would have been in pretty good shape... Other than the odd collision maybe on route!

Back later with the other turrets. Phil.
barkmann424
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Posted: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 - 08:50 AM GMT+7
Hi again!
I have managed to fit in some time, amid the party preparation chaos.
First off on the DIY zimmerit production line is... The smaller pattern less often observered on mids and lates. This is to be applied with the gorgeously made Lion Roar applicator tool, with the wider die gear in place, as the smaller of the two supplied with the tool just looks a little on the fine side.

First the putty is spread thinly with a artists broad faced pallete knife, these can be picked up very cheaply nowadays, from discount stationary/art supplies outlets. The depth we are striving to obtain is about .5mm if not a little thinner, but not as thin so you can see the styrene, as this gives a poor relief from the tool, as to deep and you get 'splurge' from the adjacent row. A little of this adds to the effect, but not so much as it resembles a badly iced cake.











Then when the acceptable depth is achieved, its onto the rolling.







The next step is a little 'clean up' and the representation of the pattern on the turret wall vision slit roundels, I tend to 'scribe' this in with the Tamiya tool, as a large build up of putty on this area is never convincing. I think that also as this part was somewhat seperate from the main matrix of the paste (and a good leverage point for clambering) it took a bit of hammer.

Happy New Year... I'll update again next year !
Phil.
barkmann424
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Posted: Friday, January 02, 2009 - 04:23 AM GMT+7
Happy New Year to all!

Right on with the pasting onslaught!

The next turret pattern up will be the universaly more common heavy broad pattern, that can be seen applied to the majority of mids and late Tiger 1's. This is a problematical type of zimmerit to reproduce due to the nature of it's texture. The pattern using a wider applicator, clashes with it's neighbouring column, as well as looking as though it has be 'over-rolled' at slight variations of a vertical angle and starting point. This gives it the look in places as being out of step in relation to the adjacent vertical row, and meshing into it's neighbour also. Here are a few images courtesy of the Bundesarchiv and IWM for comparitive purposes only.







As can be seen whilst Dragons version being a good solution to this difficult pattern depiction, it falls somewhere in-between the two generally accepted pattern types seen on the Late version of the Tiger 1. I can fully understand how difficult this could be to replicate via injection moulding, even with Dragons benchmark setting standards in todays ever changing industry.









So thats the reference bit out of the way for now, onto the pasting!
The first set of images once again relate to the application of the base medium 'Tamiya epoxy putty' to a desired thickness. Once again the thickness we are aiming for is 0.3 to 0.5ish millimeters. If the gauge of the putty is to deep it will give us a ridge that is far to large, as a flattened look is what we are aiming for with the recess of the gear being used not fully indenting the putties surface.
"This gear?" I hear you ask. "Where can such an item be found?" you say!.. Well this little marvel of modelling, can be found in the 'inertia mechanism' of most venetian blinds. You can see them just sat there waiting for a better purpose in life. It is now up to you 'the modeller' to liberate it from it's tedious existance encased within mere home furnishings, and convince the 'other half' whether real or bi-polar to adopt a more modern form of winow obliterating device, and let you 'dispose' of the dated blinds. Now you have the 'tool' we can get to rolling. On a side note this is an easier option than breaking apart your offsprings 'pull-back' cars I can assure you.



Now that you have achieved the application of the putty, we will start indenting the pattern, in overlapping columns that almost cover half of the previous row, a third of area overlap is best, I find.




Now that the portion of the turret between the gun trunnion pintles and vision slits is rolled, we can move on to the curved area of the turret sides and rear. The pattern has to be be brought slightly closer together here, as the radial aspect of the turrets rear will not allow full engagement of the 'tool' here. Once again overlapping and over-rolling being the way to achieve this texture.







Now if you are happy with the results so far, we can pay some attention to the finer points related to this pattern. The area forward of the gun trunnion pintles need to have the smaller finer pattern applied to it now, following the angle of the turret sides leading edge. Again with the heavier of the Lion Roar applicator die's





All that is needed now is to 'flatten' some of the pattern to it's distinctive squashed look with the aid of a moistened smooth blunt impliment of choice. I tend to use the end of the Lion Roar tool itself!









All that is needed now before waiting for the putty to 'cure' in order for clean up and finnishing which with the Tamiya epoxy can be up to eight hours depending up abient room temperature... Is to flatten the pattern a little around the turrets escape hatch. As can be seen on the real vehicles often.

This can be done via the use of a blunt smooth impliment/tool also.


Okay that is all for now, the next logical step is to try and match Dragons excellent moulded zimmerit mantlet, with a few choice tweaks of course. Thanks again for putting up with my whettering.




Phil
sauceman
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Posted: Friday, January 02, 2009 - 09:05 AM GMT+7
Nice job on the SBS!

Thank you very much for taking the time to keep this post going.

cheers from the sandbox
toyz4boyz
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Posted: Friday, January 02, 2009 - 10:58 AM GMT+7
This is awesome! Very clearly explained, and the Tiger images as a background behind the actual model work is brilliant! You know, with this SBS by my side, I may just get up enough guts to try "flying solo" on the Zimmerit thing one day!

barkmann424
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Posted: Saturday, January 03, 2009 - 05:48 AM GMT+7
Hello Rick! Hello T4! Welcome aboard, the more the merrier , thanks for the comments these are really appreciated .

Next up are the mantlets, two 'naked and the zimmeritted one from kit#6383,
First of all the moulded zimmerit version, this has an excellent pattern sculpted into it. If maybe not a little too heavy in places, this can be seen mainly around the demarcation line of the pattern with the smooth un-pasted surface of the base plate of the Mantlet gun sleeve.






Thank you to Dennis, for the use of his excellent images.



As you can see the pattern is indented a little to much beyond the true plane of the mantlets area surrounding the sleeve base. Also of not is with DML testing the boundries of 'styrene alchemy' the sculpted mantle suffers a little from what I can only assume to shrinkage due to the depth and amount of styrene that has been used here to create the complex mantlet with it's pattern. This is easily rectified with some putty, that will cover this area as on the majority of 'pasted' Tiger 1's





I will be 'pasting' up the two naked mantlets for comparison for the next post, this should give us a more realistic view to the sizing when all are 'zimmerited'!

Phil.
sauceman
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Posted: Saturday, January 03, 2009 - 10:15 AM GMT+7
Nice update Phil.

Interested to see the mantles with the zimmerit compared to the molded Dragon one.


cheers from the sandbox
SIRNEIL
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Posted: Saturday, January 03, 2009 - 11:01 AM GMT+7
hello again phil
is this going to be the most complete how to zimmerit in the history of injection moulded tigers. you almost make me want to sell my resin zimm and rip one of the wifes blinds down ! (i did say blinds)
how far will you be taking these builds & will we get to see the finished tigers.....

neil..........
wbill76
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Posted: Saturday, January 03, 2009 - 01:26 PM GMT+7
Enjoying watching these come together Phil, keep the updates coming.
barkmann424
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Posted: Sunday, January 04, 2009 - 06:39 AM GMT+7
Hello Rick,Neil and not least BIll! This is actually becoming a part of the day I am really starting to look forward to! I glad that you are all enjoying this SBS and finding it useful also. This zimmerit fascination goes right back to the days when I would stare in awe open-mouthed at Tony Greenlands Tamiya Tiger 1 that had been pasted with a 'Woolworth's womens shoe repair kit glue spreader', I supose this and other methods employed at the time 'spawned' the whole after-market business's and multitude of applicator tools we have so freely to hand today! I still have not been able to work out what the DML sculptor used for their depiction? I was thinking that maybe it could be a sharpened flat ended tool, like the 'screwdiver method' or 'stock plastic card fashioned tool', perhaps we will never know, it does look better on the hull than the turret though, don't you think?


Quoted Text

hello again phil
is this going to be the most complete how to zimmerit in the history of injection moulded tigers. you almost make me want to sell my resin zimm and rip one of the wifes blinds down ! (i did say blinds)
how far will you be taking these builds & will we get to see the finished tigers.....

neil..........

This Neil explained a lot of lifes mysteries to me! As to how and why my very understanding beautiful wife and I are expecting the birth of our sixth child in a month! Don't worry lads this shouldn't iterfere too much with the flow of updates! As Lisa is quite adept at the childcare routine! This is one of the positives of marrying a Teacher I supose? Though being reminded of grammar etc when posting can be fraught! Anyway lead piffle over, hooray I hear you cheer! I would also like to add that I will be going 'all the way' with this 3-1 build

First up today my entry in the Sci-Fi Tiger thread



Back too the serious stuff! The putty is first spread thinly with the artist's pallete knife. This gets the putty fairly well onto the mantlet, but with the multitude of recesses and differing planes that make up it's form, I find that a moistened cocktail stick works well at pushing and teasing the putty into the mantlets tricky areas, with a bit of prodding and gentle rolling of the surface. When a 'uniformish' (yes Lisa not a real word I know) layer has been laid down it is time to indent the pattern. For this we will use the Lion Roar roller and small pattern 1/35 die.







I try to pay careful attention to the mantlet in particular, as the pattern usually appears to have been applied in a more formulated fashion, perhaps this can be attributed to the nature of the mantlets shape and difficulty in moving the tool around to manufacture the pattern.

The Mantlet zimmerit pattern is mainly 'rolled' with the die being used to apply the recessed anlges and smaller areas. One of my favourite parts of pasting , is the curved area around the mantlet gun sleeve base, the roller really comes into it's own on this type of pattern depiction.






And thats the mantlet, I will paste the other one later, and I will also compare it against 'combed' and 'screwdrivered' versions also. Right I am going to spend a little time today with my beloved '411' or I will be neglecting the time and patience, that David has poured into this project with his amazing knowledge and enthusiasm for the Tiger 1!
... Cheers Phil. Sorry about the state of some of the images, had to revert to the 'back-up' whilst the batteries charged on the other!