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Armor/AFV: Axis - WWII
Armor and ground forces of the Axis forces during World War II.
Hosted by Darren Baker
Tiger Evolution
Major-Hazard
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Posted: Tuesday, March 01, 2011 - 03:32 AM UTC
Hi Guys!

The Model Kasten wheels are on & the running gear is nearly complete - using Friul Tiger 1 transport tracks. Just waiting for the resin hubs before I can say that detail is finished.



The turret is now fully detailed & the upper hull detailing & OVM tools are on the way.

Thanks for looking.


Bill
Abydos
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Posted: Saturday, February 26, 2011 - 01:49 PM UTC
very nicely done Bill, how did you like working with that voyager detail set, they are pretty accurate aren't they, i am just finishing up with the initial set, after its all finished i will post some more pics again. keep up the awesome work, this is a great blog
Totalize
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Posted: Saturday, February 26, 2011 - 01:40 PM UTC
Bill, Fgst.Nr. 250012 looks great. Looking forward to seeing it painted.

Regards,
David.
Major-Hazard
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Posted: Saturday, February 26, 2011 - 12:44 PM UTC
Model Kasten roadwheels coming together for Fgst 250014;



I know that the hubs are incorrect for this Tiger, but I can't represent the flower-shaped hubs noted in the photograph, so I thought if I was going to fail on that detail, I'll do it in style.

Cheers!
Major-Hazard
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Posted: Saturday, February 26, 2011 - 07:57 AM UTC
Hi David

I believe Tiger 112, Fgst 250012 was an October 1942 build - it has already been assembled and awaits paint. The only miss I had on it was the wrong convoy light, which I need to change before I photograph it for the web.



I hope to make sense of the timeline with my

Tiger Werkstätte web pages.

Thanks for looking in!


Bill
Totalize
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Posted: Friday, February 25, 2011 - 09:43 PM UTC
HI Bill, excellent build log and very interesting. You're really putting a monumental effort into this log. It wiill be truly a real benefit to anyone wanting to build one of these tanks.

One question I have for you is: Are you still planning on doing Tiger 112 of s.Pz. Abt. 501 that was sent to Tunisia in Late 1942, Fgst.Nr. 250012? I believe you had this as one of your builds.

David.
Major-Hazard
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Posted: Friday, February 25, 2011 - 01:49 PM UTC
Turret bin going on;



More detailing to come!
Major-Hazard
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Posted: Thursday, February 24, 2011 - 01:56 PM UTC
Thanks for that.

Let's call the colour of the tank 'beige' and move on from there...he he, that would be RAL'beige' for the experts. ...or maybe even 'Tan'. Whatever; B&W and colour photo comparisons is a toughie - I got bogged down on the colour of VK 45.01 (H) and realised that it is an impossible thing to prove, but I do value your input. I suspect this debate will continue ad infinitum; maybe Missing Lynx will provide some strong opinions on the subject?


Bill
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Posted: Thursday, February 24, 2011 - 12:05 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

The discussions have been long, lively, and intense with much passion on every side. It's
one of those things that can go waaaaaay off the topic!


I know, probably better than you believe, as a result of similar discussions in other forums about the vehicle marque I am selling.


Quoted Text

There have been several debates here about what photos do/don't show


I am absolute sure, you cannot says what a b/w photo says, if you dont have a color one for "translation" or you have some other definatly evidences.
My approach for this theory above was a different one:
I dont know how many modellers have ever seen in their live a real, new (not colorized 70 years old) photo of a truck in RAL8000 and/or RAL8020, and even more with North African desert background, beside the ones from a museum, or "war and peace show" etc.
I have even never seen (and heard about) another crazy guy like me, travelling through the Sahara in the last 20 years, with vehicles painted in an ex-Wehrmacht colour and puting pic. in the web.
So after my re-start of modelling mid last year, I rememebered all my photos, pulled them out and tried to use them for "translation" of all the famous and partly heavily discussed colour possibilties, based on b/w photos in the web for German Africa colours.
Maybe I am wrong with my atttempt. But I thought to share it with this forum.
But, for me, it makes clear how to paint some specific models.

Erich




sounds worth of its own thread.
trex10
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Posted: Thursday, February 24, 2011 - 11:34 AM UTC

Quoted Text

The discussions have been long, lively, and intense with much passion on every side. It's
one of those things that can go waaaaaay off the topic!


I know, probably better than you believe, as a result of similar discussions in other forums about the vehicle marque I am selling.


Quoted Text

There have been several debates here about what photos do/don't show


I am absolute sure, you cannot says what a b/w photo says, if you dont have a color one for "translation" or you have some other definatly evidences.
My approach for this theory above was a different one:
I dont know how many modellers have ever seen in their live a real, new (not colorized 70 years old) photo of a truck in RAL8000 and/or RAL8020, and even more with North African desert background, beside the ones from a museum, or "war and peace show" etc.
I have even never seen (and heard about) another crazy guy like me, travelling through the Sahara in the last 20 years, with vehicles painted in an ex-Wehrmacht colour and puting pic. in the web.
So after my re-start of modelling mid last year, I rememebered all my photos, pulled them out and tried to use them for "translation" of all the famous and partly heavily discussed colour possibilties, based on b/w photos in the web for German Africa colours.
Maybe I am wrong with my atttempt. But I thought to share it with this forum.
But, for me, it makes clear how to paint some specific models.

Erich

Bratushka
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Posted: Thursday, February 24, 2011 - 10:50 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Sorry Jim,

I have not known about this dicussions in the past and I dont want to be boring.
So maybe the moderators can cancell my thread asap.

Erich



No, no! My comments were offered with a wink and a nod! There have been several debates here about what photos do/don't show. The discussions have been long, lively, and intense with much passion on every side. It's
one of those things that can go waaaaaay off the topic!

Great pictures by the way!
trex10
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Posted: Thursday, February 24, 2011 - 07:30 AM UTC
Sorry Jim,

I have not known about this dicussions in the past and I dont want to be boring.
So maybe the moderators can cancell my thread asap.

Erich
Bratushka
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Posted: Thursday, February 24, 2011 - 07:24 AM UTC
Oh no! Not the paint analysis from from old B&W and color photos again! This thread is far too interesting and informative to go down that divergent, rocky, boulder strewn path again!

Please no!!!!!!!

It has several looooong threads of its own already! Please, not again!
trex10
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Posted: Thursday, February 24, 2011 - 01:59 AM UTC
Hi Bill,

Because as you (and cour build blog) have infected me with the Tiger virus, I have spent over the last week´s lot of time to analyze pic. of Tunisian Tigers.
I even bought Trojca´s Tiger 1942-43 Vol 1 (which is by the way a wonderfull one)
I am especially interested in the used colours of the Tunisian Tiger´s.
Analyzing the very clear pics. about transportation and loading of 250014 and 250012 on/off in Italy and Tunisia, I come to the heretic conclusion that this Tiger`s was not painted in RAL8020 as Trojca write.
The colour shade is to dark for 8020, so it must have been RAL8000.
As I have pointed out here http://www.armorama.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=SquawkBox&file=index&req=viewtopic&topic_id=168231&page=1
I was travelling around 20 years trough the Sahara with 2 different trucks in RAL8000 matt. So I have lot of colour photos showing them in different Desert conditons, even in Tunisia.
Furthermore, I have a company demo truck painted in RAL8020 for military presentations (Note: The colour was remixed from a german paint producer, specialized even in Wehrmacht colour tones, by using an original RAL-chart from 1942 for the RAL8020)



If you make this picture simply b/w, it looks like this



RAL8020 is much brighter than the photos in Trojca`s book shows the colour of the Tiger´s.
For comparison, pictures of my U404 painted in RAL8000, photographed 22 years ago in an hungarian off-roaf area and in Tunisia March/April 1989, so in the same period as the Tigers has fought there.
Original colour ones:





and even this, made in March/April 1989 some kilometers south of Sbeitla



and here the b/w version for comparison:







Note: all the pic. from the U404 are made always with the same camera and the same film (Fuji 200 21DIN/100 ASA) and has been simply scanned in by myself some days ago. The b/w version was only made by change of the colour in IRFANVIEW and not overworked.

If you compare this RAL8000 b/w photos with the photos in Trojcas´s book, the colour tone has the same “grey” and is much darker than RAL8020 will be in reality, if you look at my demo-truck photo for comparison.
On b/w photos RAL8020 is very close to the “Dunkelgelb” RAL7028, for which you have even some interesting photo-shades in Trojca´s book, from different units, supplied with new Tigers, painted in RAL7028

Erich
Major-Hazard
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Posted: Wednesday, February 23, 2011 - 03:45 PM UTC
Progress;





Detailing and running gear to come!
Major-Hazard
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Posted: Wednesday, February 23, 2011 - 03:43 PM UTC
Initial Tiger 1, Fahrgestell 250014

This is an October 1942 production Tiger and I have sourced four photgraphs of it in Jentz & Doyle DW to Tiger 1 and Trojca Tiger 1 1942-1943, vol 1. It was photographed in-transit to the sPzAbt 501, and was to be deployed in North Africa. It was shipped to North Africa via Reggio di Callabria, but photographs show it before it reached its destination, or the Werkstätte, which would have converted it to a Tunisian or DAK Tiger 1.

The identifying points of this production are;

• This Tiger had OVM tools in an early configuration, the jack being stowed vertically on the rear plate
• KFF2 periscopic sights for the driver above the driver’s visor
• It had wing-nuts for fording gear on the MG ball
• This Tiger had a Henschel-style mantlet
• The MP Klappen were symmetrical
• There were no S-mine launchers or smoke-launchers on this Tiger 1
• There were bent narrow lightweight front mudguards and a hole drilled for ‘lorry camouflage’ on the glacis plate
• The sprocket wheel hub was the later DAK style
• This Tiger had transport tracks in the photographs I have seen
• There were rain cover posts on the cupola
• The forward sections of the hull had holes for tow shackles
• The turret roof extraction fan had an armoured cover applied
• There were hatch hooks on the rear hull deck grates and the engine hatch
• There was an oblique early-style crank starter plate
• There was towing apparatus on the lower hull rear plate
• The engine hatch a rectangular air intake aperture in the forward position
• The exhausts had no shrouds, but did have flappers, which were symmetrically orientated facing inwards
• The rear mudguards were standard for the Initial Tiger 1
• This Tiger had a circular convoy light
• As with all production Tigers, Fgst 250014 had armoured guards around the final drives
• This Tiger had blanking plate at the site of the (now defunct) metal antenna base at the upper right of the rear plate; it did have a rubber antenna mount on the right side of the hull roof
• There is also a small reflector mounted to the lower left side of the hulls rear plate
• This Tiger was painted RAL8020
• Tiger 1 early 88mm barrel
• Initial style gun mantlet
• Low-sling Panzer III-style turret bin
• No spare track carriage
• Reverse tow cable stowage
• Initial style crank starter mount
• No Feifel apparatus
• Hull-mounted twin Bosch lights
• Circular armoured wiring hubs for the hull light wiring points
• No side fenders
• No mounted tool box
• Mounting points on the rear plate for Feifel
• Smoke dischargers on each side of the turret
• Two longer cleaning rods on the upper left hull and three longer cleaning rods on the right, total five cleaning rods
• A fire extinguisher was deployed on the engine deck
• There were no rectangular flanges around the engine deck filler caps
• The crowbar was the shorter version, which was deployed in a parallel fashion on the left upper hull
• There were no locking fillets on the hull sides
• DAK-style track changing cable on the hull side


This project used the following items;

• Dragon PzKpfwVI Ausf E SdKfz 181, Tiger 1 Initial Production, ref 6252
• Friul Tiger 1 transport tracks
• Voyager Model Tiger 1 Initial Type PE set, ref PE35346
• Voyager Model DAK Tiger 1 PE set
• Voyager Model Tiger 1 barrel & mantlet
• Academy Tiger 1 cast resin hubs on Dragon sprocket wheels
Major-Hazard
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Posted: Tuesday, February 15, 2011 - 03:39 PM UTC
Hi Guys



Because I have become a bit fuddled with the time-line on this uber-blog I have intended for some while to create a web-database of the Tiger Evolution; I have now managed to start the ball rolling on a blogspot, similar to Panzers In Scale, which has been a great deal of fun to create. I have linked these new web pages on Panzers In Scale & it is called "Tiger Werkstätte".

If you would like to watch this database grow over the coming years, please feel free to pop in once in a while - it will contain clear, concise data and photographs of the completed Tiger Evolution models before paint, then primed and finally the fully painted projects, each one clearly linked by a time-line index.

Please follow this link if you are interested;

Tiger Werkstätte

All the best & thanks for taking the time to have a dekko.


Bill
trex10
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Posted: Sunday, February 13, 2011 - 05:05 AM UTC
Hi Bill and David,
Thanks for your infos, now I know how to go on for the Tunisian Tigers.

Only as Info:
You can buy on German ebay actually a Cyber-Hobby Tunisian Tiger either for 499,99 € or 399,00 € (no comma mistake, they wants fourhoundred Euro) what you prefer.
So for this amount, I can invest a lot in DML 6600´s and aftermarket additional parts..

Erich
Major-Hazard
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Posted: Saturday, February 12, 2011 - 06:12 PM UTC
Hi Eddy!

Funny you should mention that - have a look at this - VK 3001 (H). I did fancy doing the later Tiger ancestor, but I think I will stick with the programme...



For another shot & the background on the build - have a look here;

VK 3001 (H)


Bill
Braille
#135
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Posted: Saturday, February 12, 2011 - 05:41 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Hi Eddy!

Than you for your technical inpout - your help is truly appreciated. I would really like it if you stuck around on the next few builds - it looks like you are a fountain of knowledge!


Bill




Bill,

I will stick around, however, I know very little if anything about the Tiger passed the initial production vehicles and stand to learn a great deal from you, Phil, Grant and David both here and from his informative and extremely helpful Tiger I website. I am however honored that you have asked me to stick around and that I will do. Being that you have endeavored your builds per say ‘Tiger Evolution’, I was wondering if you would not be including the origins leading up to the Tiger – VK3001(H), VK36.01 and the VK45.01(P)?

Just some thoughts?
-Eddy
Major-Hazard
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Posted: Saturday, February 12, 2011 - 09:30 AM UTC
Intrigue!

Hi Erich, Wouter & David.

When I built December 1942; Fgst 250053 I sourced a relatively rare Tamiya DAK from China for £24. Shortly after building that one suddenly Tamiya re-released their DAK kit & it is in most LHS's I go into nowadays.

Why am I building DML 6252 for this one? Well; I have one each of DML 6252 & DML 6600 left in the stash - the hull top is more generic from DML 6600, whereas the hull top for DML 6252 has more defined options (fewer) without scratching & filling. Further; it'll be the last time I use the all-in-one turret for an Initial as I will be using the two-piece turret from a Fehrmann Tiger with DML 6600 to create a December/January build; either Tiger 323 from sPzAbt 503 or else Tiger 411 of LAH; I can't quite decide, but have researched 323 extensively & have a superb unit-specific Gepack Kasten from Voyager Model. Each DML 6252 I bought along the way paying no more than £40 for (the last was £32). I think DML 6600 is an excellent kit, but for my purposes neither kit offers me the tracks that I want to use. I suppose 6252 has the edge on extras, but I find the only one I really use now is the brass spare antenna rod, however, 6600 does offer the reticular engine mesh screens, so that is good - along with adjustable sprocket hub options, which 6252 does not offer. The additional 6600 was picked up for £30 from my LHS 2 weeks ago in a sale. Further; the turret from DML 6252 offers mirror MP Klappen, which Fgst 250014 has, so just in case I need the option of a twin-left handed Initial turret, I will keep the DML 6600 turret shell in the spares box after building 323/411.

One more thing to say about DML 6600; the turret roof has an option for the loaders periscope, whereas DML 6252 does not; because of this reason, the more generic hull top, the reversible right-side MP Klappe, the in-box PE mesh screens and the options for the sprocket wheels DML 6600 is a better kit IMHO.

PS David; can you confirm my thoughts on Tigers 323 & 411 - were they both late December 1942/January 1943 Tigers?

Thanks for looking!


Bill

PS the AM line-up for Fgst 250014 has changed slightly. I will let you know what I intend to do once I have factored in the alternatives.
Byrden
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Posted: Saturday, February 12, 2011 - 07:24 AM UTC

Quoted Text

the new 6600, I get from my local dealer for 43€ and as I heard is more accurate than the 6252.

Erich



6252 has individual track links, 6600 has DS tracks and it covers both handed and standard types.

6600 has a number of small detail improvements, including a better rear turret bin and rear wall tool storage.

David
GewoonWouter
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Posted: Saturday, February 12, 2011 - 03:09 AM UTC
Erich: I just think Bill got hold of whole hidden stash of 6252

Strange that you pay a lot for Tamiya's DAK Tiger...although it might be out of production, I bought it last year for around 30 €

Billbo...I'll be following you here as well buddy :-D

cheers
trex10
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Posted: Saturday, February 12, 2011 - 02:13 AM UTC
Hi Bill,

Thanks for your DAK model advice. I catched a Tamiya DAK Tiger from spruebrohters... here its out of production and hard to find and then expensive.

A (probably) stupid question: Why are you using DRAGON Tiger 6252 and not the new 6600 as basic.
Is 6252 more suitable or because you have them in enough amount in your "private storage " ?
Actually 6252 is sold in German/Austrian ebay at 50-55 €, the new 6600, I get from my local dealer for 43€ and as I heard is more accurate than the 6252.

Erich
Major-Hazard
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Posted: Friday, February 11, 2011 - 06:50 AM UTC
Whilst I am waiting for the resin sprocket hubs I will crack on with the modelling; for the fifth & final incarnation of DML 6252 I intend to create Fgst 250014; rolling off the production line in October 1942 and onto flatbed rail transport to North Africa via Italy. I have four reference photos from Trojca's Tiger 1942-1943 Vol 1 and some excellent TD's from Jentz & Doyle's DW to Tiger 1.

The build will include;

DML 6252
Tiger Model Designs Tiger mantlet #1
Voyager Model Tiger 1 hubs for removing outer road wheels
Tank Workshop Tiger 1 early muzzle brake w/canvas cover
Friul Tiger 1 transport tracks
Voyager Model Tiger 1 Initial PE35346





Should be a fun build.