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Armor/AFV: Axis - WWII
Armor and ground forces of the Axis forces during World War II.
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Tiger Evolution
vanhall
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Posted: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 - 06:09 PM GMT+7
Bill,
If you're really looking to do a 'Totenkopf' Late Tiger. Have you considered '912'?
There's plenty of pics of this one.
It looks to have rain slits in the cupola and the pilzen sockets on the roof.
Makes it at least a June'44 prod?

Grant.
vanhall
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Posted: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 - 05:43 PM GMT+7

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


move Totenkopf Tiger 901 to March





It does seem to be a late March Tiger. The combination of 25mm roof and monocular gunsight is interesting.

Is it a Befehlstiger?

David




Now you've said it David, it would make sense.
Photos of the Early production '901' show it was a Befehlstiger.
Unfortunately, the two decent photos I have of the later '901' are taken from the right front side and the left front side.
On the left front side photo any evidence of a turret roof antenna base or a plugged MG are hidden by camo-foliage.

Grant.
Byrden
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Posted: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 - 04:42 PM GMT+7

Quoted Text


move Totenkopf Tiger 901 to March





It does seem to be a late March Tiger. The combination of 25mm roof and monocular gunsight is interesting.

Is it a Befehlstiger?

David

Major-Hazard
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Posted: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 - 04:01 PM GMT+7
Hello Grant, Phil & David! Looks like some changes are afoot. Maybe if I am ditching Tiger 300 of sPzAbt 505 I should move Tiger 312 of sPzAbt 504 to January 1944, move Totenkopf Tiger 901 to March and keep sPzAbt 503 (Kampfgruppe Mittermeier) Tiger 122 in April 1944.

What think you lot?

I am still missing a charging knight sPzAbt 505 Tiger and an SSsPzAbt 101 Tiger. Any ideas? In preference of Tigers from the missing units I would be happy to lose the following Tigers in order to represent the sPzAbt's not yet listed;

Feb 1943; Tiger 131, sPzAbt 504 (Bovington Tiger)
December 1943, Tiger ‘Red 308’, sPzAbt 502
Jun 1943; Tiger A02, Großdeutcshland (assuming we find a Großdeutcshland Tiger in the lates)

Thanks one & all for your input!


Bill

Panzers In Scale
Byrden
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Posted: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 - 02:40 PM GMT+7

Quoted Text



Tiger 312, sPzAbt 504 (wrecked in a ditch in Italy; see Restayn, Tigers on the Western Front, pp 56 & 57). I am sure this is an early March 1944 model.




Seems to be February or March.



It has the 25mm roof, the turret ring, no travel lock, and the final kind of starter adapter.

David
Byrden
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Posted: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 - 12:02 PM GMT+7
OK, I took another look, and you can forget about Tiger 300 of s.Pz.Abt. 505.
It's a hybrid.



The hull is January/February 1944. The lack of cutouts indicates there is no heater port, but that's just a small mixup. Other Tigers had the same.

The turret, however, is pre-October with a pistol port.

David

Byrden
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Posted: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 - 06:16 AM GMT+7

Quoted Text




Feb 1944; Tiger 300, sPzAbt 505, Fgst 250829





Seems like a good choice.
It appears to have the smaller idler. The heater port should be on it, the 20 ton jack, no Feifel gear whatsoever, and no protective ring around the turret. It has the rear travel lock; good luck finding one. The adapter plate should be the third type.
Interesting that it has no cutouts at the front hull; they were supposed to be present since January. Makes me wonder about the heater port.

David
barkmann424
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Posted: Monday, November 08, 2010 - 06:18 PM GMT+7
Evening Bill!
Unfortunately the latest possible date for a s.SS.Pz..Abt.101, is late March, or extremely early April. Though... If you sift through the images, there are a couple of cracking (shall we say?) 'production anomalies' in the 2nd Kompanie!



Speak later Tiger... Phil

vanhall
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Posted: Monday, November 08, 2010 - 02:46 AM GMT+7
Hi Bill,

Just a couple of quick notes about your list:

"Jul'44; Tiger 901 Totenkopf"
On this photo '901' looks to have the 'splash' guard around the loaders hatch,
which would mean a 25mm roof. Even though it does have the monocular sight.
Wouldn't this make '901' no later than a March'44 production?



..and: "June'44 Tiger Befehlswagen B, sPzAbt 507"
I thought the 3 photo'd 507 Befehlstigers were all 'mid' productions?

Grant.

Major-Hazard
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Posted: Friday, November 05, 2010 - 04:11 PM GMT+7
This still leaves Tiger from sSSPzAbt 101 to be fitted in & a prime slot could be June 1944 – any ideas (Phil? David? Grant?)?

Here are my preliminary ideas for the Lates;

Feb 1944; Tiger 300, sPzAbt 505, Fgst 250829

Mar 1944; ? Tiger 312, sPzAbt 504 (wrecked in a ditch in Italy; see Restayn, Tigers on the Western Front, pp 56 & 57). I am sure this is an early March 1944 model.

Apr 1944; ? Tiger 122, sPzAbt 502 ex-Kampfgruppe Mittermeier, Hauptmann Scherf. 40mm turret roof armour, strapped-hinges on loader’s hatch with off-set handle, binocular mantlet sights and large muzzle break. I am sure this is an early April 1944 model.

May 1944; (Saumur) Tiger 114, sSSPzAbt 102, Fgst 251114, (white outline tac number 114 with black tac number 114 on the Gepack Kasten with a white outline and a pink lightning unit ID).

Jun 1944;

• ?Tiger 132, sPzAbt 501
• ? Fgst 251227
• ? Tiger Befehlswagen S01, Großdeutcshland
• ? Tiger B21, Großdeutcshland
• ? Tiger Befehlswagen B, sPzAbt 507

Jul 1944;

• ?Tiger 100, sPzAbt 507
• ? Stripey Tiger Großdeutcshland en route to the front, without tac numbers
• ?Tiger 913, Totenkopf
• ?Tiger 901, Totenkopf
• ?Tiger 01, PzAbt 301 Funklenk

August 1944;

• ?Tiger 233, sPzAbt 501
• ?Tiger 241, sSSPzAbt 102
• ?Tiger 913, Totenkopf

Comments more than welcome!

Major-Hazard
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Posted: Friday, November 05, 2010 - 04:08 PM GMT+7
Thanks David.

This is the up to date list of the Initials, Earlies & Mids;

Aug 1942; Tiger 111 sPzAbt 503, Fgst 250008

Sep 1942; Tiger 112, sPzAbt 501, Fgst 250012

Oct 1942; Fgst 250014

Nov 1942; Tiger 123, sPzAbt 503

Dec 1942; Fgst 250053, Wa Preuf 6

Jan 1943; Tiger 822, Das Reich (TRANSPORT)

Feb 1943; Tiger 131, sPzAbt 504 (Bovington Tiger)

Mar 1943; Tiger 323, Pz Dv Muncheberg, Berlin 1945 (assumed March build)

Apr 1943; F02 Fehrmann (assumed April build)

May 1943; Factory-finish Fgst 250234 (TRANSPORT)

Jun 1943; Tiger A02, Großdeutcshland

Jul 1943; Tiger 8 'Strolch', Tiger Gr Meyer, Italian Front 1943

Aug 1943; Red W11, sPzAbt 506

Sep 1943; Tiger 113, sPzAbt 509

Oct 1943; Tiger 113, sPzAbt 501

Nov 1943; Tiger ‘White-outline 2 or 3’, sPzAbt 508

Dec 1943; Tiger ‘Red 308’, sPzAbt 502

Jan 1944; ‘Tiger A/B/C’ Panzerbefehlswagen Ausf E (ref pp 140-141, Jentz & Doyle); sPzAbt 507

I am open to debate about July 1943...
Byrden
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Posted: Friday, November 05, 2010 - 02:23 PM GMT+7
I'd expect to find September Tigers in 501, 505, 509 and GD.

509 is poorly covered by photos, but this is one:



505 has a few good examples, with the C-hooks stored on the front plate:





I didn't spot any in Grossdeutschland, but they did have this July/August Tiger with a forward-opening cupola:



David
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Posted: Friday, November 05, 2010 - 01:20 PM GMT+7
I have signed up for the Tiger campaign.

This should help me, then;



maybe...

Thanks for the reference David - all support & pictures would be gratefully received.

Actually David/Phil - or anybody else for that matter (??Grant), now we see that Tiger 231 of sPzAbt 501 and Tiger Red W11 of sPz Abt 506 are probably both August 1943 Tigers; can anybody point me in the direction of an sSSPzAbt 101 September 1943 Tiger? I fancy keeping Red W11 and changing 231 for 113 (October 1943), thereby displacing Tiger 334 of sSSPzAbt 101 from the October 1943 slot; currently September 1943 seems to be vacant. Any ideas? Maybe even sPzAbt 509 - seems to be (as yet) unrepresented?

I have wracked my brains & have so far drawn a blank - I see some early Mid-tigers on Tiger Im Focus, but can't pin down any September ones...

Here's hoping!


Bill
vonMarshall
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Posted: Friday, November 05, 2010 - 05:55 AM GMT+7

Quoted Text

Thank you for your interest. I suspect I might be doing three DAK-themed builds by the end of it. How would one join a 'campaign'?



If you go to the CAMPAIGNS section at the top of the page you will see a massive variety.

There is The Desert Fox campaign starting in February on the 14th, the 70th anniversary of Rommel's arrival in Africa.

I also see The Tiger Tank campaign too which is obviously very suitable!

I have just joined my first campaign and like the idea of having a bit of a deadline to keep the focus and a theme to share ideas etc. Just click on the "ENLIST" button and head to the Campaign are of the Forums and you will find the relevant thread.

Byrden
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Posted: Thursday, November 04, 2010 - 05:28 PM GMT+7

Quoted Text

Is the 'original' Mid-Tiger a July 1943 build?






s.Pz.Abt. 503 got a few new Tigers in August '43, including some of the very first Mids with the forward-opening cupola. Numbers 100 and 300 are clearly photographed.



David
Byrden
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Posted: Thursday, November 04, 2010 - 04:51 PM GMT+7
Tiger C of s.Pz.Abt. 507




Leaving aside the really obvious items, it had:

C-hooks; centered headlight; cleated tracks; no S-mines; no rear toolbox; crank handle beside antenna base; no Feifel system or leftover mount points; no pistol port; a rear travel lock; the 20-ton jack (square base); a shovel on the glacis; no cutouts in the hull armour for the C-hooks; the original wheels; no heater port in the rear wall; the large idler; no ring around the turret base; the third type of starter adapter; the 25mm turret roof; a binocular telescope; the large muzzle brake; etc.

The crew stored 3 links of spare track above each front mudguard, 3 bundles of sticks on each side, and a single jerrycan in a frame above the jack. Tiger B had a step added on the left, and it looks like the same was done to C, although no photo shows it.

It was of course a Befehlstiger with the antenna tube on the left rear wall, the supports on the right side for a tall antenna, a turret roof antenna and a left hull roof antenna, the rear C-hook stored diagonally at the left, and a plugged MG hole in the mantlet.

I can send you photos...

David
Major-Hazard
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Posted: Thursday, November 04, 2010 - 02:05 PM GMT+7
Hello David!

Please do list the features of Tiger Befehlswagen C; January 1944 - is that also sPzAbt 507 or is is GD?

Is the 'original' Mid-Tiger a July 1943 build? Was that one of sPzAbt 505? I thought that particular Tiger had a Mid-style cupola retro-fitted to an Early-style turret (with an MP Klappe vs an MP Stopfen)? Am I wrong? I thought that I read that somewhere...I would be delighted to oblige, but it would have to substitute Tiger 8 Strolch, unless, of course, that was actually a June build? Maybe Tiger 112 E Schnapur was a June 1943 build? What do you think - I had hoped to do one of those two along the way.

After our machinations on Missing Lynx - do we now ascertain Tiger 231 of sPzAbt to be definitley a September 1943 build, or is it an August 1943 model? I am sure that there is absolutley no Zimmerit on the left hull side photograph & that one is pretty close up isn't it?

If we agree on the July Mid-Tiger - can I exchange June 1943 from GD Tiger A02 for Tiger 112 E Schnapur or Tiger 8 Strolch?



Bill
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Posted: Thursday, November 04, 2010 - 01:58 PM GMT+7
Hello Noel

Thank you for your interest. I suspect I might be doing three DAK-themed builds by the end of it. How would one join a 'campaign'?

The most recent list is a little most extensive than the original nine - like you say, this could take time...


Bill
vonMarshall
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Posted: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 - 04:17 PM GMT+7
Have been following this blog for a while and I am loving your work with the PE. Great research is really showing in the detailing.

But this is the first time I have read your blog from the beginning and when I read this...



Quoted Text

Please feel free to follow me on this blog that will incorporate the following Tiger variants:

1. Tiger 1, Initial
2. Tiger 1, DAK
3. Tiger 1, Early 503-style
4. Tiger 1, Classic Early
5. Tiger 1, Mid (Kursk)
6. Tiger 1, Late
7. Tiger 1, Early Fehrmann
8. Tiger 1, Initial Hybrid
9. Sturmtiger



... I spilled my beer all over the place. Good God man you must be mad!

I will most definately be subscribing to this... for the next few years I would guess!

There is a campaign starting in February called The Desert Fox. It would be great to see #2, the DAK Tiger involved.

Good luck!

Byrden
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Posted: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 - 03:20 PM GMT+7
Since you seem to be looking for variety in your Tigers, why not start the Mid line with one of the very first Mids? The ones with the cupola hatch opening forwards? And twin headlights, and the flat mantlet?



I can't see enough of 'A' / 507 to pin it down, but 'C' / 507 is indeed a January '44 tank and I can list its features.


David
Major-Hazard
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Posted: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 - 02:41 PM GMT+7
Following this week's planning I have come up with this tiger Timeline formula;

Aug 1942; Tiger 111 sPzAbt 503, Fgst 250008
Sep 1942; Tiger 112, sPzAbt 501, Fgst 250012
Oct 1942; Fgst 250014, delivered to sPzAbt 501 (TRANSPORT)
Nov 1942; Tiger 123, sPzAbt 503
Dec 1942; Fgst 250053, Wa Preuf 6
Jan 1943; Tiger 822, Das Reich (TRANSPORT)
Feb 1943; Tiger 131, sPzAbt 504 (Bovington Tiger)
Mar 1943; Tiger 323, Pz Dv Muncheberg, Berlin 1945 (assumed March build)
Apr 1943; F02 Fehrmann (assumed April build)
May 1943; Factory-finish Fgst 250234 (TRANSPORT)
Jun 1943; Tiger A02, Großdeutcshland
Jul 1943; Tiger 8 ‘Strolch’, Tiger Gr Meyer, Italian Front 1943
Aug 1943; Tiger ‘Red W11’, sPzAbt 506
Sep 1943; Tiger ‘Black-outline 231’, sPzAbt 501
Oct 1943; Tiger 334 sSSPzAbt 101, Fgst 250570
Nov 1943; Tiger ‘White-outline 2 or 3’, sPzAbt 508
Dec 1943; Tiger ‘Red 308’, sPzAbt 502
Jan 1944; ‘Tiger A’ Panzerbefehlswagen Ausf E (ref pp 140-141, Jentz & Doyle); sPzAbt 507

I hope it works.

Thanks to all for their assistance with dating the Tigers. I reckon the Lates will keep me thinking for quite a while. Currently, I think I need a rest.

Phew!

Tiger 323 sPzAbt 503 has been scratched infavour of adding October 1942 and doing Tiger 131 of sPzAbt 504, North Africa. I have to take care of a little Panzer painting first, but will kick off with the Timeline ASAP.


Bill
Byrden
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Posted: Tuesday, October 26, 2010 - 04:20 PM GMT+7
231 of 505 is a little curious.

It was photographed with a HL230 engine adapter, but it also had welded frames at the rear mudguards. This is not expected. I suspect that the engine was a HL210, just the adapter was out of sequence.

I don't know about any legs on the engine hatch.

It had every other mod from April backwards, so April is the earliest possible build date.


David
Major-Hazard
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Posted: Tuesday, October 26, 2010 - 03:29 PM GMT+7
I am on the hunt for a set of Bison decals; BD35021 - Early Tiger 1's, Ostfront;



I can't see them in my usual sources & guess that they had a short print-run. The only place I have found them charges 20 Euros for delivery from Italy.

Does anybody have any leads to where I might be able to source this set from?

The particlar vehicle I have an inkling to add in as a June 1943 Tiger (delivery/build) is this one;



Tiger 231, built during May/June 1943 (by my reckoning) and delivered to sPzAbt 505 in June 1943, I reckon it might be a good replacement for Tiger 122 E Schnapur, as Tiger 8 Strolch and E Schapur share too much in common to be juxtaposed in the series for my liking. If you disagree with my estimation of build month, please let me know.

Cheers!


Bill
Major-Hazard
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Posted: Monday, October 25, 2010 - 04:02 PM GMT+7
I will get the pictures of the 5 completed Initial/Early Tiger builds very soon;

Tiger 111, sPzAbt 502 (August 1942)
Tiger 112, sPzAbt 501 (September 1942)
Tiger 123, sPzAbt 503 (November-December 1942)
Fgst 250053 (December 1942)
Tiger 822, Das Reich (January 1953)

So for the upcoming 'Early' Tigers I have this in mind;

December 1942 (again); Tiger 323, sPzAbt 503
January 1943; Tiger 822, Das Reich (built)
February 1943; Tiger 131, sPzAbt 504
March 1943; Tiger 323, Pz Dv Muncheberg, Berlin 1945 (assumed March build)
April 1943; F02 Fehrmann (assumed April build) or Tiger 1331 LSSAH (? late April/early May build? - confirmation/advice would be appreciated)
May 1943; Tiger 1331 LSSAH (? late April/early May build? - confirmation/advice would be appreciated), or Fgst 250234, or Tiger 323 sPzAbt 502
June 1943; Tiger 122 'E Schnapur', Tiger Gr Meyer, Italian Front 1943 (late June build - confirmation/advice would be appreciated)
July 1943; Tiger 8 'Strolch', Tiger Gr Meyer, Italian Front, 1943 (July build)

This represents the list of to do's for the Early Tiger 1's and should keep me busy for a while...


Bill
Major-Hazard
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Posted: Monday, October 25, 2010 - 09:31 AM GMT+7
Hello David

Thank you for that - I had every intention to build this as a February 1943 Tiger 1, but there were nagging doubts in my mind like;

Why aren't there any exhaust shrouds?
Why aren't there any S-mine throwers mounted, yet the apparatus is there?
If this is a February build; why isn't there a production Gepack Kasten?
If this is a February build, why isn't the crank starter mounted on the bottom right rear of the rear plate?
Why is the mantlet atypical, yet devilishly similar to Fgst 25053, and others of sPzAbt 503 (built during December 1942, yet slightly before due to absence of turret escape hatch)?
Why are there no hatch stoppers?

Now I know - it is an earlier build (it looks to me like I'm playing snakes & ladders).

So - next up is a December 1942 build.

I have the January 1943 build in the bag (Tiger 822, 'Das Reich'), but will consider options for February 1943 now - units I have to choose from would be Gross Deutschland, LSSAH, sPzAbt 503, sPzAbt 508, sPzAbt 507 & sPzAbt 504. I wonder which of the LSSAH Tigers from Kursk were February builds - do you know David?

By the way; regards Tiger 323 which fender edge is bent and which is straight (talk about caught just at the moment of change)? Where was the original antenna mount? Top right of the rear plate?

I guess Tiger 323 was somewhere between Fgst 250054 and 250076 inclusive (25 of the 34 sent out that month went to sPzAbt 503).

Thanks again!


Bill