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General Ship Modeling
Discuss modeling techniques, experiences, and ship modeling in general.
Hosted by Todd Michalak
Submerged Submarine!
Spiderfrommars
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Posted: Thursday, June 02, 2011 - 03:32 AM GMT+7

Quoted Text

Why not cast in a mold that you don´t have to remove ? - build it up in 2mm clear acryllic and trim the edges raising over the water after casting

This way you can glue the mold solid and just leave it.

Cheers/Jan




Yes but resin chemical reaction could give problems because it generates heat that could distort the acrylic sheets (...and the model)
The only way in my very humble opinion is adding several thin resin layers for several times until the clear "pool" is full
I'm very curious to see your steps


cheers
Buckeye198
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Posted: Sunday, June 05, 2011 - 07:12 PM GMT+7
Glad to hear your kits will be going well! I can't wait to see how your experiments turn out. And I'm still not sure what material to use for the mold...I'll be seeing my handyman-grandfather tomorrow so I'll be sure to discuss things then with him. Concerning the dye, possibly. If anything, I'll keep it very light. The Cod operated in the South Pacific, so based on pictures I've seen and personal experience, the waters should be relatively clear/blue and placid (thank goodness!!) Maybe a few drops of light blue if anything at all.

And Mauro, you're right. I think the easiest solution would be to just keep making thin layers until the whole ship is submerged in resin. I'll probably have to make some kind of wire support system like someone else on this website did (I would like to give credit where credit is due, but I don't have my bookmarks in front of me...my sincere apologies...).
Buckeye198
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Posted: Monday, June 13, 2011 - 01:33 AM GMT+7
Finally back home, and as expected, my grandpappy brought the necessary wisdom to the table! I told him about my plan and we then ran through our options. We called ETI and spoke with a girl who really knew her stuff (if you ever have to call them, ask for Hillary). She suggested we use a rubber or liquid latex coating on the wood, then treat it with ETI’s mold release formula. Grandpa suggested we just use pretreated molding wood, like the kind you use for siding and whatnot, and spray the release agent over that. Smooth surface, screwed together, caulked corners, and it sounds like a plan. Then we went in the attic and found plenty of siding wood! We marked the boards up, took them to the community woodshop, and then built the sucker.

Hillary also gave us what she calls her “Cool Formula” for working with delicate plastics. Pouring what will be the bottom of the water brick first, there will be three layers. The first layer will be 3 drops catalyst per ounce resin. That’ll be the “empty space” underneath the sub. When the resin gets “Jello-like,” set the sub in and let it harden to keep the sub steady. That way you don’t need wires or jerry-rigged harnessing or anything at all. Second layer is two drops/oz and that layer will cover the sub to the top of the sail. Third layer is one drop/oz and that one will be the layer I slap around to turn the resin into water. I don’t think I’ll do any tinting to the brick…I’m not willing to risk demarcation lines between layers and, on top of that, Holger/Hulkster (the artist who built the dio I linked to at the very beginning of the thread), told me “no, I did not tint the water. epoxy will go slightly(very) yellow/green which is good 4 being realistic.”

So there you go! A well-made mold, 3-2-1 catalyst drops/oz in layers 1-2-3 respectively, and no tinting. I’ll have to practice screwing up the surface before I rest the sub in the resin though. Tonight (after watching LeBron choke and storm off the court—quitters never win and winners never quit, "King" James!) I measured the volume of resin I’ll need…About 71oz for the first two layers! I think I’m going to just use 64oz per layer and hope that the sub’s volume-displacement will be enough to push the resin to the top of the sail. If not, I’ll have to buy maybe an 8oz can IN ADDITION to two more 32oz cans and the catalyst. Oy. This is getting to be one expensive model! I also worked on the cavitation. I’m just using Q-Tip cotton twirled and pulled gently to get the right effect, then my mama's hairspray is helping to keep the shape. I think the port cavitation is better (which works for me, since I kinda screwed up starboard in a few places…) but both will do just fine. Also decided to include one of the many torpedoes included in AFV Club’s kit. I think it’ll add even further to the depth and feel of the dio. Well tomorrow I begin to pour! Wish me luck!

vonHengest
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Posted: Monday, June 13, 2011 - 08:06 PM GMT+7
Wow Robby, and I thought I had a headache before I read your last post

Kidding aside, sounds like you learned some great stuff. I'll have to re-read all of that later tonight or tomorrow when I can focus on it more.

You may want to use saran wrap twisted up instead of the cotton that you are using (I'm guessing that is cotton). I'm not sure if the cotton will react with the "water" while it is curing. Just a thought.

I picked up my collection of little subs a couple of days ago. Give me about a week to catch up with you.

Wish you luck with pouring tomorrow
Buckeye198
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Posted: Tuesday, June 14, 2011 - 03:53 PM GMT+7

Quoted Text

Wow Robby, and I thought I had a headache before I read your last post

Kidding aside, sounds like you learned some great stuff. I'll have to re-read all of that later tonight or tomorrow when I can focus on it more.

You may want to use saran wrap twisted up instead of the cotton that you are using (I'm guessing that is cotton). I'm not sure if the cotton will react with the "water" while it is curing. Just a thought.

I picked up my collection of little subs a couple of days ago. Give me about a week to catch up with you.

Wish you luck with pouring tomorrow



My word, I have so much for you to learn from my recent mistakes/disasters. (Unfortunately, that seems to be a common theme for me nowadays... )
I began my pouring yesterday. I decided to just go ahead with the cotton. Formed them, sprayed them with hair spray to keep their shape, and then glued them to the stern diving planes. Awesome.


I did my first pour; following Hillary's advice, I used 3 drops catalyst per ounce of resin, and I used 64 ounces resin. She told me that ***1 tablespoon of catalyst is approximately equal to 60 drops*** Mixed it, poured it, and it about 15 minutes in, the stuff was gelled and almost too hard to put anything in. I managed to get the sub pressed in, but when the brick was completely solid and clear (not to mention too hot to handle...), I removed it from the mold--which was a snap thanks to the mold release--and found that the mixture had eaten a hole in the hull and split the bow at the waterline.


I dug through my spare parts box and found some external fuel tanks (F-86, perhaps?) that I was able to manipulate into some okay patches. The way I figured, there's no turning back now, and hey, subs would be patched up like this anyway, so what does it matter if my model doesn't look fresh from the shipyard?

Painted the patches on each side as best I could. Not a bad fix atall.


So resin lessons:

1. DO NOT follow the formula I posted earlier!! Just use one drop/oz IF THAT! I called Hillary back and she suggested possibly even one drop/2oz or even a 2:3 ratio.

2. Mix slowly! Bubbles are a real pain with this stuff, and while some bubbles can add to realism, you really don't want a lot. A hot hair-dryer will work to get rid of some bubbles. Just don't use so much force that you make more bubbles!

3. Line your mold with plexiglass. While the laminated wood makes a solid mold, the sides are not completely smooth, and I found that those miniscule swirl-lines are enough to make the sides nearly opaque.

4. Seriously, pour no more than 1/8" at a time. I know that modelers on other threads didn't have problems, but the risk for a kit to turn out like mine because of the resin just isn't worth it. Pour small batches and monitor CLOSELY each step of EACH STEP of the way. It will take a significantly longer amount of time to finish this way, but it's the only way to ensure your model stays looking like when you finished building it.

5. If you can use PE instead of plastic for the little parts, do it! From what I can see now (the resin is just past the top of the sail), the Oerlikon, flagpole, and something up front--the only small plastic parts on deck--are soft and have bent out of shape. What use is a curved AA barrel, right? All the PE parts--thank goodness AFV Club gave me those parts--are doing fine, just fine.

I honestly don't know how my version will turn out. I sincerely hope that you learn from my experience and make a dio that is truly impressive, and I wish you the best of luck! Keep us updated! I'm not giving up the ship though. I'll be working on it right through to the end. If it has to be a what-if dio entitled "The Last Voyage of the USS Cod," then so be it. At least I'm learning stuff
vonHengest
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Posted: Tuesday, June 14, 2011 - 11:25 PM GMT+7
Wow Robby, that is some seriously hot stuff you are working with! Thank you for sharing the pitfalls of your endeavor. I think I am going to try the resin first since it seems the hardest to work with. I'm going to be working with 1/700 submarines for my experiments, so my "bricks" will be a lot smaller and probably won't produce as much heat while curing.

I'll share with you that the good news about having bad experiences when you work on something is that you're always going to remember what not to do which will make you much better at whatever skill set you are working on.

I wouldn't be surprised if one of my subs turns into a pile of goo
Buckeye198
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Posted: Tuesday, June 14, 2011 - 11:47 PM GMT+7
Good plan, buying a bunch of 1/700 subs instead of one 1/350 sub, since the real focus of this experiment is the sub in the "water" instead of just the sub itself. And though you're using significantly less material, you should still consider a 1:1 or 2:3 catalyst-resin ratio to cut down on heat.

Edison (an Ohioan who worked in Jersey--double score! ) said after numerous failures that he now knew "1000 ways not to make a light bulb," and I now know everything to avoid doing while casting a submarine in resin! Oh, the joy of learning. I just wish I didn't have to cost me around $100 to do so! Best of luck to you with your endeavors. Feel free to post your build log here as well, unless you want to make your own thread.
Spiderfrommars
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Posted: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 - 02:09 AM GMT+7
It's turning quite impressive Robby

I hope to see it soon finished

Cheers and congrats for the braveness
vonHengest
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Posted: Thursday, June 16, 2011 - 07:45 PM GMT+7
If you keep rolling with this thread I can certainly post some of my exploits in here.

I will make sure to remember that ratio. Still trying to figure out what I am going to do for molds myself.

The three subs I will be working on will be:
DKM U-boat Type VII C
IJN I-400
PLA Navy Type 033

I am going to need to figure out how to sculpt surface waves for the two WWII subs. I'm thinking of having the U-boat at periscope depth and the I-400 cruising the surface. Of course the I-400 would look cool submerged with it's little floatplanes flying overhead. And of course I have to accept that this could all turn to mush
Buckeye198
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Posted: Friday, June 17, 2011 - 02:43 PM GMT+7
Update: Air bubbles have formed in every nook and cranny on the superbly-detailed deck (maybe a coat of Future beforehand could've alleviated this?), the periscope (which was not even underwater) has succumbed to heat and curled over, and the resin still hasn't cleared up after three or four days drying time. I have a feeling that the ratio I used ended up not having enough catalyst to complete the chemical reaction. So I'm kind of at a loss for the ratio now. Not enough catalyst and you risk making murky Mekong Delta water, but too much catalyst and your sub melts. There's definitely a key factor that we're simply missing to make this process work. I think maybe you really do just have to pour an eighth of an inch or less at a time. Who knows, maybe if you pour one layer a day, you can finished with it all in a month or two. I wish you the best of luck with your experiments! As for mine, I'm finally gonna throw in the towel. It's just too far gone to salvage. What a humbling experience in modeling for me...Keep me posted on your builds though!
vonHengest
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Posted: Saturday, June 18, 2011 - 12:13 AM GMT+7
Geez, if it's not one thing it's another

Everything I look at points towards pouring thin (1/8 inch) layers at a time. Did you read through the off-site build log on the submerged Sherman? It may help out, but I don't know. It definitely sounds like time for you to catch a breather. I can't tell you how many times I've tried something for the first time and ended up with a total mess. Usually when this happens I find that if I just put the project down for a while and come back to it that it suddenly becomes a lot easier. Perhaps it's one of those moments where we can't see the forest for the trees.

I will go ahead and create a separate thread here for my project(s) then. I will be moving slowly with it but hopefully I can help address some of the problems you have experienced with yours.
Buckeye198
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Posted: Saturday, June 18, 2011 - 01:06 AM GMT+7
I hear you, buddy. At this point in my life--college student, strapped for cash and time, looking for a job constantly, and no room to display my work--it's probably best that I pass the torch on to you. I really hope to return to a dio like this someday in the future. Feel free to just keep posting here if it'd be easier for you to keep track of my "knowledge." If not, post a link here to your thread so I can subscribe!!
vonHengest
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Posted: Saturday, June 18, 2011 - 06:23 PM GMT+7
That's precisely why I stuck with the small stuff. It doesn't look nearly as good as the 1/350, but it's much more appropriate as a learning project. I can keep posting in this thread if you like, just make sure that you're subscribed to it. Enjoy the breather and let's see what follies I can manage to get myself into over the next several weeks
Buckeye198
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Posted: Saturday, June 18, 2011 - 10:23 PM GMT+7
As always, best of luck to you, and I'll be watching for your next installment!
Buckeye198
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Posted: Saturday, July 16, 2011 - 08:35 PM GMT+7
I know this thread is pretty much over now, but I realized that I never posted pictures of the final product. I didn't do anything else with it after the second pour, so this is as far as it'll get. It's on my shelf though, as a reminder of what happens when I have no idea what the I'm doing. Note: these pictures actually are in focus...sure doesn't look like it though...





Thanks again to everyone for their input and advice...happy modeling!
Gremlin56
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Posted: Sunday, July 17, 2011 - 02:12 AM GMT+7
Bad luck there Robby and that while you were tantilizingly close to what would have been an ace build. Put it down, take a deep breath and then back to building.
Cheers,
Julian
blaster76
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Posted: Tuesday, July 19, 2011 - 12:34 PM GMT+7
You may be able to salvage this project a bit. With the "water" covering the hull, It looks fine beneath. So replace the top mast pieces with evergreen or plastistruct rod. Add some more water sculpting material to depict a wake to show the sub diving or raising up in the water

Of course, I haven't seen any side view pix and they may show the sub really warped. Shame as that was such a well done kit
Francisco
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Posted: Friday, December 30, 2011 - 02:25 PM GMT+7
Your misadventures helped me plan a project I'm working on and I've been successful so far. Please take a look at:

http://fbminisworkbench.blogspot.com/search/label/HMS%20Astute%20-%20Hobbyboss%201%2F700

http://modelshipwrights.kitmaker.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=SquawkBox&file=index&req=viewtopic&topic_id=186276&page=1

For me, the key elements were testing the clear resin and making a sturdy container. A slow curing resin (less catalyst), poured in small layers is essential to stay away from problem caused by overheating or shrinkage. Also, I found coating the container with latex (which is a cheap product) to be a great help in terms of making it watertight and helping the final block come out (we'll see).

Thank you