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Zvezda T-90 Tweaks and Changes
Karl187
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Posted: Friday, March 09, 2012 - 01:26 AM UTC
I thought I would get this thread up and running. See here for some discussion already begun by Mauro about the profile of the T-90 kit versus the real thing:

http://www.armorama.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=SquawkBox&file=index&req=viewtopic&topic_id=189662&page=3

Discuss!!

(Lets keep things focused, civil and constructive.)
Karl187
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Posted: Friday, March 09, 2012 - 04:25 AM UTC
I'm sure some of you guys already know of Alexy Khlopotov's website, but for those who don't, here's the link:

http://www.gurkhan.blogspot.com/

Alexey's site is great for info on the T-90 and its variants, and also a pretty good reference site for Soviet/Russian AFV's in general.

Alexey reviewed the Zvezda kit ages ago on his site and he was quite critical- I remember reading it at the time but I forgot to bookmark it, its on there somewhere. In any case I thought I'd post a link to his site as it has some interesting info on it.
Campeador
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Posted: Sunday, March 11, 2012 - 04:07 AM UTC
As already posted in an other thread:

Unfortunatly Zvezda's model doesn't match the low profile of the real tank. The hull is too high. The next problem are the oversized sideskirts. I think they are connected with the hull issue, because accurate sized skirts would look too small on Zvezda's hull.

Here is a comparison (I hope you don't mind Karl )



It would be necessary to build the skirts from scratch and possibly modify the suspension arms to fix the problems. This is not "just" a wrong or missing detail, I think it is very noticeable.
Karl187
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Posted: Sunday, March 11, 2012 - 05:20 AM UTC
No I don't mind Campeador !

I've been thinking about this issue since Mauro brought it up in the other thread and it does seem to be fairly hard to try and rectify. Mauro suggested altering the suspension arms. This could very well be possible.

However, I was wondering if it would be possible to elongate the side skirts a little. Baring in mind that the main areas on the sideskirts are not actually solid- I think it could be an idea to cut away this portion (connection are circled in red, portion to cut is marked with 'X') and replace it with either thick lead foil- or perhaps an aftermarket set will provide longer etch skirts along with the connectors and handles (circiled in green):



The problem with this is it may make the skirts look too long when considering the height.

SEDimmick
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Posted: Sunday, March 11, 2012 - 11:21 AM UTC

Quoted Text

As already posted in an other thread:

Unfortunatly Zvezda's model doesn't match the low profile of the real tank. The hull is too high. The next problem are the oversized sideskirts. I think they are connected with the hull issue, because accurate sized skirts would look too small on Zvezda's hull.



I broke out my Tamiya T-72 (with Miniarm T-90 M2004...kicking myself for getting rid of the older turret now!) and the Zvezda T-90 kit, along with a set of capliers and the Concord T-72/90 book that actually has 1/35 scale drawings.

The rubber portions of the Zveada T-90 side skirts are 14mm, which is about 2mm bigger then drawings I have and also the Tamiya T-72 rubber skirts.

I measured the hull on both kits from the second to last roadwheel station to boxes on the upper hull. The Tamiya T-72 measures 30mm tall and the Zveada kit is about 32-33mm, but keep in mind that zip box on the hull side appears different (slightly taller) then on the T-72. I measured to the where the side skirts attach to the hull and they had identical measurements of 26mm. The drawings indicated about 30mm using the same measurement of the roadwheel station to the zip boxes.

The roadwheels measure out fine...they are all about 21mm in diameter, even the aftermarket CMD ones and another unknown brand I had in the box with the Tamiya kit.

i didn't get a chance to measure the suspension on both kits, but I'm starting to think that the Zvezda might need some tweaking in the angle of it to avoid the hull looking too thick with some modifications to the side skirts.

As for the lower hull detail, the T-90 has nicer detail then the T-72 kit and its better engineered (the Tamiya kit has a hull that doesn't go all the way up to the upper hull...this also thew me for a loop as to why the T-90 kit hull sides where so much taller then the Tamiya kit).
Spiderfrommars
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Posted: Sunday, March 11, 2012 - 11:36 AM UTC

Quoted Text

The rubber portions of the Zveada T-90 side skirts are 14mm, which is about 2mm bigger then drawings I have and also the Tamiya T-72 rubber skirts.



Well Scott, thanks a million for the info!

We should replace the rubber skirts with some other ones scratch built or try to shorten those provided by Zvezda.

I think I'll choose the first solution because the rubber skirts of the kits actually look a litle bit too "stiff" for my taste.

It'll be also necessary to change the angle of the suspension arms.

I'm incredibly busy with my job these days, but If I have enough time this week I'll study more carefully the kit parts

What about the turret?

cheers
SEDimmick
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Posted: Sunday, March 11, 2012 - 12:26 PM UTC

Quoted Text



What about the turret?



Didn't get that far...but from what I've seen of the Miniarm and Zevzda turret isn't that different.

Plus I think the one in the scale drawing is of the regular turret and not the welded turret in the kit.

Here is a photo of the two hulls side by side dry fitted together.

Spiderfrommars
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Posted: Sunday, March 11, 2012 - 11:21 PM UTC


They seem to have the same dimensions

So, as I said before, I think that It couldn't be necessary to modify the hull, it would be enough to shorten the rubber skirt and change the suspension arm positions. However I wish that those kind of jobs didn't create some problems to the track links
SEDimmick
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Posted: Monday, March 12, 2012 - 12:12 AM UTC

Quoted Text


So, as I said before, I think that It couldn't be necessary to modify the hull, it would be enough to shorten the rubber skirt and change the suspension arm positions. However I wish that those kind of jobs didn't create some problems to the track links



Thats what I was thinking...I need to attach the suspension units on both kits and take a measurement and compare them to the drawings also. See if its that or something else making the kit look "fat"
Spiderfrommars
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Posted: Monday, March 12, 2012 - 12:20 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


So, as I said before, I think that It couldn't be necessary to modify the hull, it would be enough to shorten the rubber skirt and change the suspension arm positions. However I wish that those kind of jobs didn't create some problems to the track links



Thats what I was thinking...I need to attach the suspension units on both kits and take a measurement and compare them to the drawings also. See if its that or something else making the kit look "fat"



Let us know Scott. Thanks a million for the contribution
SEDimmick
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Posted: Monday, March 12, 2012 - 02:52 AM UTC
Ok, ran into a problem with the drawings...I just got an email back from Steve Z that the drawings aren't that accurate and that Zvezda most likely had better info to work with.

I'll still use them as a comparison guide, but I wouldn't use them as gospel.

Overall both kits are within 1-3mm of each other, so I wouldn't to spun up over the differences...yet.
afv_rob
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Posted: Monday, March 12, 2012 - 03:47 AM UTC
I think there will be problems if one simply shortens the side skits, and doesn't adjust the suspension arms. Shortening the side skirts will leave too much of a gap between the wheel spokes and bottom of the skirts. If you look at the photo posted by 'Campeador' the bottom of the side skirt is almost level with the metal rim of the wheel (a little bit above the spoke). However on the Zvezda kit the bottom of the skirt is in line more of less with the top of the rubber wheel.

I think some of the problems are also the fact that Zvezdas suspension arms are very flimsy and don't stay in place very well when gluing. In any case though there is n question that the side skirts are too large.

I think its also a bit problematic comparing the Zvezda and Tamiya hulls, because both companies tackled the lower hull in different ways.

I have a ton of references and info regarding tweaks that I will post up soon. Haven't had a chance to yet as I have been away in Turkey!
SEDimmick
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Posted: Monday, March 12, 2012 - 04:49 AM UTC

Quoted Text


I think its also a bit problematic comparing the Zvezda and Tamiya hulls, because both companies tackled the lower hull in different ways.



Not exactly...the Tamiya lower hull doesn't extend all the way up to the upper hull like the Zvezda kit does...actually the way Zvezda does it is better since it allows the sides to interface with the upper hull, giving you a more solid model.The tamiya upper hull has some "play" to it.

The difference between the height of both kits (assembled) is around 1-2mm...hardly a big deal. The both measure at 26mm or so at the point where the side skirts match up however.

Another problem is comparing the built up model to that photo is that the hull is slightly askew throwing the angles off. However it does look to me that the angle of the track is slightly more "steeper" then the kit..which indicates that the roadwheel arms are at the wrong angle.
Spiderfrommars
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Posted: Monday, March 12, 2012 - 05:11 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I think there will be problems if one simply shortens the side skits, and doesn't adjust the suspension arms. Shortening the side skirts will leave too much of a gap between the wheel spokes and bottom of the skirts. If you look at the photo posted by 'Campeador' the bottom of the side skirt is almost level with the metal rim of the wheel (a little bit above the spoke). However on the Zvezda kit the bottom of the skirt is in line more of less with the top of the rubber wheel.



That's what I've noticed too. I think that the level of metal rims will be my references when I modify my model


Quoted Text

I think some of the problems are also the fact that Zvezdas suspension arms are very flimsy and don't stay in place very well when gluing.



Well Rob, considering that we should change their positions, it could be good that they are a little bit "flimsy". It would be worse if they were too "firm"

Cheers
arpikaszabo
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Posted: Monday, March 12, 2012 - 05:21 AM UTC
Excellent thread, folks. I will use a lot of these tips for my interpretation of the Zvezda lower hull.
Campeador
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Posted: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 - 12:18 AM UTC

Quoted Text

The difference between the height of both kits (assembled) is around 1-2mm...hardly a big deal. The both measure at 26mm or so at the point where the side skirts match up however.



Well, 2-3 mm is enough to make it noticeable, at least for me and many other russian armor fans. Our russian colleagues started a discussion at the panzer35.ru forum about solutions for fixing those issues. My photoshopped pic (http://img809.imageshack.us/img809/7025/87053109.jpg) also have drawn attention to them.


Quoted Text

Another problem is comparing the built up model to that photo is that the hull is slightly askew throwing the angles off. However it does look to me that the angle of the track is slightly more "steeper" then the kit..which indicates that the roadwheel arms are at the wrong angle.



This is not the best comparison, I agree, but even with a better angle it would be more or less the same result: hull profile and side skirts are not correct on Zvezda's model.
SEDimmick
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Posted: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 - 12:59 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

The difference between the height of both kits (assembled) is around 1-2mm...hardly a big deal. The both measure at 26mm or so at the point where the side skirts match up however.



Well, 2-3 mm is enough to make it noticeable, at least for me and many other russian armor fans. Our russian colleagues started a discussion at the panzer35.ru forum about solutions for fixing those issues. My photoshopped pic (http://img809.imageshack.us/img809/7025/87053109.jpg) also have drawn attention to them.


Quoted Text

Another problem is comparing the built up model to that photo is that the hull is slightly askew throwing the angles off. However it does look to me that the angle of the track is slightly more "steeper" then the kit..which indicates that the roadwheel arms are at the wrong angle.



This is not the best comparison, I agree, but even with a better angle it would be more or less the same result: hull profile and side skirts are not correct on Zvezda's model.



The only difference (in hull profile) is that the Tamiya kit is 1mm...which is measured via the zip boxes or whatever you want to call them on the hull...the T-90 has slightly different ones then the T-72. As you can see from my photo both hulls are just about identical to one another without the side skirts or running gear installed.

The side skirts are an issue, but an easier one to correct. I don't think just fixing the side skirts will take care of the thickness issue...its also a suspension issue also.

I'm going to do more measuring to see if thats the problem or not.
skyhawk
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Posted: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 - 03:06 AM UTC
very interesting

keeping in mind that comparison of a photo of the model profile and a snapshot profile may not be the best, is it just me or is there more distance between the sprocket and the very aft end of the skirt on the model? That distance looks a lot shorter on the real thing.

Im thinking there is several small errors that are having a compounding effect.

Andy
Karl187
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Posted: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 - 04:48 AM UTC

Quoted Text



Im thinking there is several small errors that are having a compounding effect.

Andy



Thats what I'm thinking as well.
lukiftian
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Posted: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 - 07:46 AM UTC

Quoted Text

As already posted in an other thread:

Unfortunatly Zvezda's model doesn't match the low profile of the real tank. The hull is too high. The next problem are the oversized sideskirts. I think they are connected with the hull issue, because accurate sized skirts would look too small on Zvezda's hull.

Here is a comparison (I hope you don't mind Karl )



It would be necessary to build the skirts from scratch and possibly modify the suspension arms to fix the problems. This is not "just" a wrong or missing detail, I think it is very noticeable.



Yeah, and lowering the profile by adjusting the torsion bars may require ditching the kit tracks. It's a shame because they aren't bad. If it can be done by one link...
lukiftian
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Posted: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 - 08:28 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I'm sure some of you guys already know of Alexy Khlopotov's website, but for those who don't, here's the link:

http://www.gurkhan.blogspot.com/

Alexey's site is great for info on the T-90 and its variants, and also a pretty good reference site for Soviet/Russian AFV's in general.

Alexey reviewed the Zvezda kit ages ago on his site and he was quite critical- I remember reading it at the time but I forgot to bookmark it, its on there somewhere. In any case I thought I'd post a link to his site as it has some interesting info on it.



That was amusing, yes he was a little hard on the kit, but he also got a test shot. Some of his points were well, made, particularly concerning the turret, but these things are not unfixable by a long stretch.

I believe the vehicle is riding light, just by lowering the torsion arms it'll be a huge improvement, changing the side skirts might not even be necessary.
Campeador
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Posted: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 - 08:41 AM UTC

Quoted Text

The only difference (in hull profile) is that the Tamiya kit is 1mm...which is measured via the zip boxes or whatever you want to call them on the hull...the T-90 has slightly different ones then the T-72. As you can see from my photo both hulls are just about identical to one another without the side skirts or running gear installed.

The side skirts are an issue, but an easier one to correct. I don't think just fixing the side skirts will take care of the thickness issue...its also a suspension issue also.

I'm going to do more measuring to see if thats the problem or not.



I was talking about the profile of the tank as a whole. I know that there is no big difference between Tamiya's and Zvezda's upper hull dimensions. BUT, when you compare both models built up not just the raw hull, you will notice that there is a notable differance in the hull profile. That's the point. So yes, the problem must be related with the suspension arms (I have mentioned it before)
Spiderfrommars
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Posted: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 - 09:42 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

The only difference (in hull profile) is that the Tamiya kit is 1mm...which is measured via the zip boxes or whatever you want to call them on the hull...the T-90 has slightly different ones then the T-72. As you can see from my photo both hulls are just about identical to one another without the side skirts or running gear installed.

The side skirts are an issue, but an easier one to correct. I don't think just fixing the side skirts will take care of the thickness issue...its also a suspension issue also.

I'm going to do more measuring to see if thats the problem or not.



I was talking about the profile of the tank as a whole. I know that there is no big difference between Tamiya's and Zvezda's upper hull dimensions. BUT, when you compare both models built up not just the raw hull, you will notice that there is a notable differance in the hull profile. That's the point. So yes, the problem must be related with the suspension arms (I have mentioned it before)



Zvezda might have designed a tank light on the suspension. Anyway I've seen the extra parts that Miniarm has made for the Zvezda kit. They are, of course, stunning, but for the upper hull they make just some extra parts, they don't provide a whole upper hull and they don't make new rubber skirts. It does mean that Zvezda kit is not so bad after all
Campeador
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Posted: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 - 09:59 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Zvezda might have designed a tank light on the suspension. Anyway I've seen the extra parts that Miniarm has made for the Zvezda kit. They are, of course, stunning, but for the upper hull they make just some extra parts, they don't provide a whole upper hull and they don't make new rubber skirts. It does mean that Zvezda kit is not so bad after all



Well, they don't provide many things yet...like a correct barrel, fuel tanks and so on. Zvzeda's kit is not bad at all, esp. for that price, but there is always room for improvements . Btw, I don't care much for small mistakes (nothing is perfect, right?), dimensions (which the most modern russian armor kits lacking) are more important for me.
Spiderfrommars
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Posted: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 - 10:06 AM UTC

Quoted Text

WHAT? An entire hull by Miniarm?, wouldn't that cost $200+ ...



even more...


Quoted Text

Well, they don't provide many things yet...like a correct barrel, fuel tanks and so on. Zvzeda's kit is not bad at all, esp. for that price, but there is always room for improvements .



I agree...and i like a lot improving good kits