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T -34 in the bosnian war
repynot
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Posted: Tuesday, September 04, 2012 - 07:38 PM UTC
The area around Doboj, Bosnia was littered with T-34. Just above our camp there were a couple sitting in embankments.

The rumour during the war was that they even had a old Tiger tank functioning.
Spiderfrommars
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Posted: Wednesday, September 05, 2012 - 01:43 AM UTC

Quoted Text

The area around Doboj, Bosnia was littered with T-34. Just above our camp there were a couple sitting in embankments.

The rumour during the war was that they even had a old Tiger tank functioning.



I imagine that you haven't taken any pics of them

Pity!



Thanks for the info anyway
brunocollin
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Posted: Friday, September 07, 2012 - 03:40 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I love these tanks! But why did they have to put roof armor on the turrets of their M-36s! I really wish they hadn't done that. I wonder if they all have it?


Nearly all M36B2 were factory-fitted with an armoured roof.
It ain't a Yugo mod. You can find them upon French M36 in Indochina, on Pakis ones in 1965 and so on...
repynot
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Posted: Friday, September 07, 2012 - 05:48 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

The area around Doboj, Bosnia was littered with T-34. Just above our camp there were a couple sitting in embankments.

The rumour during the war was that they even had a old Tiger tank functioning.



I imagine that you haven't taken any pics of them

Pity!



Thanks for the info anyway



I have them on paper, I will scan them next week and see how they come out.
vertigo
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Posted: Saturday, September 08, 2012 - 07:32 AM UTC
What a great thread this is, lots of amazing pictures providing a wealth of modelling opportunities.
Tomislav
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Posted: Thursday, September 13, 2012 - 04:12 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Just a wee side note- I've seen some Croat T-34's with white sandbags attached to the side of the hull and turret:



(According to Yves Debay and James Hill the tank above, 'Malo Bijelo', survived two AT-3 Sagger hits and was said to have 'destroyed two Praguas one truck and another Serbian tank.' This is all borne out with a clear color photo of the tank, in the Concord book The Balkans on Fire: Nightmare in Yugoslavia which contains some great T-34 photos and info on their use. Interestingly, in Dubrovnik where the Malo Bijelo was used, the Dubrovnik Brigade were using an old M36 Jackson!)




Hi, guys! I just found this thread and it seams to me that you need a "Balkan domestic" person for more inforamation! :-)

First, here is my atempt at "sandbag T-34" (Hobbyboss 1/48).

http://hrcappuccino.org/articles/misc/KakoT-34B.htm
Second, Pictures of "Malo bijelo" (eng. "The little white thing" are from Dubrovnik, Croatia area taken in 1992). I also have Concord book, but althougt Debay knows a lot about wars in Croatia and Bosnia I never found any proof (books, veterans, forums, etc.) that this tank actually destroyed all that that he mention in his book.

Third. The picture of "Belaj Bager" (eng. "Trouble dozer") was taken decade after the war in military museum in Vukovar, Croatia and this is not original "Belaj bager" but other T-34 just painted as "Belaj bager" The real "Belaj bager" was sraped in year 2000, but picture of him can be seen here

[url=http://www.hrcappuccino.org/articles/misc/VerzijeT-34.htm[/url]

Also note that all pictures form this article where taken in year 2000 in Benkovac, Croatia, so after the war at military storage area, and after this pictures were taken all this tanks were scraped.

Serbian rubber T-34 is form Bosnia.
Serbian T-34 with DhSk picture were taken in Croatia 1993.

Picture of T-34 with slogan "JNA JUGOSLAVIA" was not taken around Vukovar. It is from vilage Stari Grabovac in 1991. There is atleast 10 good pictures of this tank form different angles

Several pictures of burned Yugoslav army T-34's were taken in 1991 near Karlovac, Croatia.

Picture of Croat T-34 with number 999 was taken around Dubrovnik, Croatia in 1992

All Yugoslav M-36 and M-18 had armored roof. This is not case with Yugoslavia only. Even US M-36 after WWII had roof. It protect crew from shrapnels and molotov cocktails, etc. Both B1 and B2 models of M-36 were used in war (and some armor veterans told that 90mm M-36 gun was better agains T-55 that a T-55 100mm gun. I find that strange, but those guys know their bussines)

Picture of M-36 with soliders wearing german WWII helmets is not from Balkan wars. It is form Yugoslav army manuvers from 1950's.

Serbian M-36 turret no. 7115 - Kosovo 1999.
Serbian M-36 with cirilic writing "Bjesna strina" and "Bjezi ujo" (eng. "Mad aunt" and "Run ustashi") was taken in Croatia

There is no proof (just talk) that Sherman thank were used by Croats in war. Picture of M4A3E4 is from training ground.

M-47 Patton was used mostly by Croats. Except picture of "Azdaja" (eng. something like "Dragon"), there are pictures of "Leophard 2" (I think tajt Italeri is making this decals in 1/35)

Su-100 (one platoon) was used by Serb forces in Croatia in 1991 and Bosnia 1992. Don't know what happend to them after 1992.

What a long post...To be continued...
Spiderfrommars
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Posted: Thursday, September 13, 2012 - 04:38 AM UTC
Thanks a million for the corrections Tomislav!

I reported what the captions said, many of them were probably wrong.
However, it's quite hard to be precise especially if you don't know Croatian or Serbian languages

Now i'm waiting for your next post

Congrats for your model, it looks stunning!

cheers

Tomislav
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Posted: Thursday, September 13, 2012 - 05:17 AM UTC

Quoted Text


The rumour during the war was that they even had a old Tiger tank functioning.



It can't be Tiger tank becouse there were never Tigers in Yugoslavia (not even in WWII). But I have heard rumor that bosnian serbs took Panzer IV (F2 version I think, not really sure) from museum, with operatioanl gun, but without engine, put it on trailer and driving it around and fireing gun from trailer. No pictures, just rumor.

But I think that price for oldest piece of junk used in war goes to Croats and M8 High speed tractor converted to AFV!
Spiderfrommars
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Posted: Thursday, September 13, 2012 - 05:33 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


The rumour during the war was that they even had a old Tiger tank functioning.



It can't be Tiger tank becouse there were never Tigers in Yugoslavia (not even in WWII). But I have heard rumor that bosnian serbs took Panzer IV (F2 version I think, not really sure) from museum, with operatioanl gun, but without engine, put it on trailer and driving it around and fireing gun from trailer. No pictures, just rumor.

But I think that price for oldest piece of junk used in war goes to Croats and M8 High speed tractor converted to AFV!



Well, they shoul win the prize also for the weirdest one



Tomislav
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Posted: Thursday, September 13, 2012 - 07:37 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Well, they shoul win the prize also for the weirdest one






Maybe, but not with this one. This vehicle called "Strasko" (eng. "The Scary thing") started as garage improvised project for raming baricades, gates, etc., but proved so sucessfull that army ordered 20 od those for anti-teroristic duties, so it became first serial produced Croatian army vehicle! And all of them survived the war. Since you are from Italy, maybe you will vist Croatia, and if so, try to go to Karlovac museum. You have one of them on display there.



And if not, I have some walkaround pictures of "Strasko".


For the "Stranges vehicle of Balkan wars" competition I have some other suggestion like "Mikes" -the armored furniture moving truck.



Or, this M-8 high speed tractor



Or this Serb Anti-aircraft "thing".


But, we went off topic here, original qestion was about T-34.
Spiderfrommars
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Posted: Thursday, September 13, 2012 - 06:20 PM UTC
Thanks a million for these interesting pics. It would be great try to scratch build them! Many thanks also for your info...I didn't know that "Strasko" has become a serial vehicle! What was the civil tractor used as a base for the conversion?
Anyway, yes, I might visit your wonderful country, but to be hones, I would be more interested in some survived T-55 exemplars

Anyway, I have a pair of questions about the "Balcan" T-34s

First of all, as far as I know, only the -85 version was employed during tha war. I'd like to know if also some -76 exemplars were used

My second question is about the MG. I've noticed that many exemplars had the Colt Browning Mg rather than having the DSHKM one. Which one was more common between them?

Third....what about the camo schemes?

Many thanks in advance

Cheers
Tomislav
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Posted: Thursday, September 13, 2012 - 08:02 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Thanks a million for these interesting pics. It would be great try to scratch build them! Many thanks also for your info...I didn't know that "Strasko" has become a serial vehicle! What was the civil tractor used as a base for the conversion?
Anyway, yes, I might visit your wonderful country, but to be hones, I would be more interested in some survived T-55 exemplars

Anyway, I have a pair of questions about the "Balcan" T-34s

First of all, as far as I know, only the -85 version was employed during tha war. I'd like to know if also some -76 exemplars were used

My second question is about the MG. I've noticed that many exemplars had the Colt Browning Mg rather than having the DSHKM one. Which one was more common between them?

Third....what about the camo schemes?

Many thanks in advance

Cheers



Guys are scratchbuilding those things.

http://www.maketarstvo.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=18749

Here is that M8.

About "Strasko", a colegue of mine made one in 1/72. Here are pic of "original" vehicle and model.
http://henk.fox3000.com/jereb.htm

If you are planing to visit Croatia for original T-55's then hurry up!. Although there was a lot of remains of destroyed tanks after the war around, war ended 17 years ago so places are clean up more and more.
Milano is not very close to Ancona but go with ferry from Ancona to Zadar (Zara).
There you can still see T-55 which was destroyed in 1991 (interesting story and place becouse Croats used old Italian bunkers).
http://www.panoramio.com/photo/38355512
Also there is an T-34 there, destroyed in ambush in 1991.
http://www.panoramio.com/photo/61083774

No T-34/76 were used in this war. Some in WWII, but mostly by Germans!!!
Browning 0,50 cal was standard on all Yugoslav T-34/85.DSHK was exception.

What about camo schemes? Except JNA olive drab ones, I don't think there were 2 that was painted same!
Tank_builder
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Posted: Friday, September 14, 2012 - 02:03 AM UTC
Tomislav, do you happen to know the history behind a Croatian T-34 named "PAS"? All I know is that it means dog
-Seth
Tomislav
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Posted: Friday, September 14, 2012 - 05:26 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Tomislav, do you happen to know the history behind a Croatian T-34 named "PAS"? All I know is that it means dog
-Seth



Yes, "PAS" means "DOG". This T-34 was used by 4th guards brigade through the war. Last combat picture of it that I saw was from August of 1995. Those well known pictures that can be found on internet are taken after the war in military storage facility. "PAS" was cut to pieces and sold to smeltary in Italy in year 2000 like most of T-34's on those pictures.
Tank_builder
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Posted: Friday, September 14, 2012 - 05:50 AM UTC
Tomislav, thank you so much for the help. I build a lot of Balkan armor so finding out information on units and specific vehicles always helps out a great deal
-Seth
Spiderfrommars
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Posted: Friday, September 14, 2012 - 06:12 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Except JNA olive drab ones, I don't think there were 2 that was painted same!



I've seen some exemplars (either Serbian or captured by Croatian army) which seemed to have the Serbian 3 tones camo scheme



Here the scheme which I mean







Was it only my impression?

Another question (if you don't mind). What's the best way to replicate the Serbian pale olive green?
Anyway i agree with Seth.
It's great to have that information. Thanks a lot indeed!
Tomislav
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Posted: Saturday, September 15, 2012 - 10:38 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Except JNA olive drab ones, I don't think there were 2 that was painted same!



I've seen some exemplars (either Serbian or captured by Croatian army) which seemed to have the Serbian 3 tones camo scheme

Was it only my impression?

Another question (if you don't mind). What's the best way to replicate the Serbian pale olive green?



Except Yugoslav Army pail olive color, i don't think there was an general rules of painting and marking of tanks in any other army. Maybe just guidelines. Usually it was just units internal regulation. So you can say that several tanks were painted in same colors but size and shape of camouflage fields varied a lot from tank to tank. Also most of the colors used where automotive colors, and not some army color from regulation. Belive me no one could say today what color exactly were used because guys who painted them took first green, gray, brown or black that they can find.

When you say "Serbian pale olive green" I presume you think about JNA grey-green color (SMB)? Well most serbian and croatian modelers agree that best match is Revell SM362 "Grayish Green silk" or Testors 2051 Faded olive drab.

Here I have to point out that original SMB color was made by croatian company, so after collapse of Yugoslavia, rest of Yugoslavia (Serbia and Montenegro) change vendor, so the "new" SMB was a bit different shade, much greener. You can see some armor form Kosovo in this color. Here is an example.


Northern_Lad
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Posted: Sunday, September 16, 2012 - 07:52 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Some other pics

Serbian T-34/85 (plant # 183 flatened turret) knocked down during the Vucovar siege in 1991. Serial number 18015 with a big "6" and a hand painted red slogan on the turret which unfortuanately I can't read ("JNA...????")

JNA is the acronym of Jugoslovenska Narodna Armija - or in English the Yugoslav National Army, also translated as the Yugoslav People's Army.

Cheers.







Another Serbian exemplar. Is likely to be a T-34/85 made in #112 factory with ZIS S-53 gun collar. Note the mixed wheels.



Croat Exemplar. It looks like a 1944 eexemplar made in factory 112 with S-53 gun collar



Other Serbian exemplars damnageded by the Croats














HeavyArty
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Posted: Sunday, September 16, 2012 - 08:09 PM UTC
Nice T-34!



I'm sure whatever the arrow is pointing to is an important part too.

Hmm, arrow....OK, how many of you missed the arrow?
Spiderfrommars
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Posted: Sunday, September 16, 2012 - 08:11 PM UTC

Quoted Text



JNA is the acronym of Jugoslovenska Narodna Armija - or in English the Yugoslav National Army, also translated as the Yugoslav People's Army.

Cheers.




I do know. Actually I couldn't read the other word so I've written the first one followed by the question marks

Timoslav, your information has been incredibly useful. I didn't know that there were 2 shades of JNA green
As far as you know there is a recipe to obtain the serbian JNA green (I mean the palest one) using Tamiya or Valleyo paints?


Quoted Text

Nice T-34!



oh yes nice indeed Gino! it doesn't seem to be almost 70 years old!

SEDimmick
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Posted: Monday, September 17, 2012 - 02:01 AM UTC
Not exactly Safe for work either!
Tomislav
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Posted: Monday, September 17, 2012 - 07:44 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Nice T-34!

I'm sure whatever the arrow is pointing to is an important part too.

Hmm, arrow....OK, how many of you missed the arrow?



Gino, true scale modeler should not be distracted by sins of flesh in his holy quest for perfect model!
Indeed, I'm sure that this girl is very sad that everyone is looking her body while she try to explain to us that T-34/85 Model 1994 has smaller commanders cupola so there is no small bulge on turret side unlike Model 1945 which has bigger cupola and this bulge.
And that is what red arrow points!

Mauro, I don't know good mix of Valejo paints to get that color since I use Valejo only for brush painting. I did try to mix something from Tamiya XF-65 Field Gray (added yellow, olive drab, white) but colors that I mentioned before were much better match. You must know that that color varied a lot. When new it looked dark green, when old it turned to gray or even yellow. In piece (and early war like Slovenia) those tanks were in great condition because crew polished them with petrol to get shiny appearance, so you can even make them glossy.

Here are some pictures that might interest you.

About that "JNA JUGOSLAVIJA" T-34 story goes like this. In fall of 1991 there were hevy clashes between Serbs/JNA and Croats around area of city called Novska and this vilage caled Stari Grabovac. Both side used armor. In one of many JNA attacks Serbs were able to enter the vilage but Croats drove them out. This T-34 ended in a ditch, and JNA T-55 in retret run over his barrel to prevent Croats for salvage and using it. So since it was unusable this T-34 seat in that ditch for next few months providing good picture background.





Than we talked about "MALO BIJELO". Here is one picture of it from different angle.


Another sandbaged T-34 called "Leopard" from 1992 Croatian offensive around Dubrovnik. The man with mustache is one of the commanders of 4th. guard brigade and one of the finest croatian tank commnaders in war. He was KIA on October, 9th, 1995, three days before end of war. His nickname was "Spider" so in his honor today 4th guards brigade is called "The Spiders"



Since there was question about "PAS" although not very good here is only real combat picture of "PAS" that I know of, from August 1995.



Serb T-34, Bosnia


Serb T-34/85 around town of Pakrac, Croatia, October 1991.


This is from Bosnia but I don't know the details. Graffiti are from bosnian Croats (HVO), but colors and markings are Serb, so maybe Serb T-34 knocked out by bosnian Croats.


Destroyed serb T-34, Croatia 1992.


And although this is T-34 thread, since I see there is interest for this stuff also here it is:

Serb soliders passing two knocked out M-18 Hellcats in Bosnia (diorama material???).


Both B1 and B2 Croat M-36 side by side (from museum, so after the war)


Kosovo -Meeting of generations M1 Abrams goes one way, and Serb M-36 other (diorama material???)


Croat M-36 "RAGA" (eng. Old Mule)


Croat M-18 Hellcat "Suzy" (no translation needed)

Another Croat M-18 after the war in storage depot waiting restoration for museum.


Tomislav
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Posted: Monday, September 17, 2012 - 08:49 AM UTC
I just relized that this thread has title T-34 in Bosnian war, and there no pictures of Bosnian Army armor. So we have to correct that...

Bosnian Army T-34


Bosnian Army T-34 captured by the Serbs on mount Ozren June,28th, 1994


Another Bosnian Army T-34 captured by the Serbs.


Bosnian Army M-18 Hellcats




Serb T-34 destroyed in August or September of 1995 in western Bosnia by Croats.


Another destroyed T-34 in Bosnia, but I don't know the details.
Tank_builder
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Posted: Monday, September 17, 2012 - 08:49 AM UTC
Tomislav those pictures are wonderful!! Thank you for the picture of PAS. Do you happen to have any of the SU-100s?
-Seth
Spiderfrommars
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Posted: Monday, September 17, 2012 - 09:14 AM UTC


Great exemplar! Thans a million Timoslav.
Anyway i'll try your recipe