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Panther Ausf.D
der_leutnant
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Posted: Saturday, May 05, 2012 - 04:58 AM UTC
Hi all, I have got a dragon panther D with zimmerit, wondering if I can set in in a vignette in Berlin 1945.

I know by that time almost all, if not all panthers were G's F's, but is it possible that an ausf D would have survived till 45'? Or can I do a 'what if' ausf d with the panzer lehr?

PS: I am already finishing up the base, but not started on the kit yet.

All help is appreciated guys!
der_leutnant
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Posted: Saturday, May 05, 2012 - 07:54 PM UTC
sorry, got my facts wrong, it shouldn't be lehr, it would probably something of panzer division muncheberg or kummersdorf. Would it still be possible that one of these units in april / may 1945 in berlin would still be operating an ausf D panther?
CMOT
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ARMORAMA
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Posted: Saturday, May 05, 2012 - 11:18 PM UTC
Highly unlikely would be my guess Dexter as the D series being the initial Panther release had a few issues, I suspect that all the Panther A's would all be gone as well.
Kuno-Von-Dodenburg
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Posted: Saturday, May 05, 2012 - 11:21 PM UTC
As has been said, highly unlikely - but of course impossible to rule out completely, given that all manner of museum pieces and vehicles languishing in maintenenance depots were hurriedly pressed into service as the Soviet noose tightened.

If you're dead-set on Berlin '45 and want to be "historically accurate", your safest option is probably a G though.

- Steve
der_leutnant
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Posted: Sunday, May 06, 2012 - 12:33 AM UTC
thanks for your suggestions guys, the base is basically just an urban cutaway, i guess it would fit into normandy 44' as well. Now, would an ausf.D be fighting in normandy? sorry to trouble you guys, I would love to do the ausf.d since I already got it, I didn't research much on it before buying as it was a sale item *whoops* .


edit: did some research on 44' panther D's, turned out there were D's in Normandy. I'll try to get some pictures of my base, and don't hold back on comments regarding it, please . Let me know if it looks like a French building from the 40's.

here's the link to what my search found:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/47207/message/1026548257/Matchmaking-+a+12-SS+Panther+D+in+Normandie---


Thanks for all help received,
Regards, Dexter.
PantherF
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Posted: Sunday, May 06, 2012 - 01:08 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Hi all, I have got a dragon panther D with zimmerit, wondering if I can set in in a vignette in Berlin 1945.

I know by that time almost all, if not all panthers were G's F's, but is it possible that an ausf D would have survived till 45'? Or can I do a 'what if' ausf d with the panzer lehr?

PS: I am already finishing up the base, but not started on the kit yet.

All help is appreciated guys!





Nothing wrong with a 'what if' project, so go ahead and build it!

It could be a hypothetical rebuild program that never got as far as one or two vehicles, so make something new or odd about the Panther D in your Dio. I mean, it could have a different cupola, or newer gun shield. A heater unit on a D would raise some eyebrows but this will be a re-built Panther, so use some imagination!

I do look forward to what you come up with!









~ Jeff
der_leutnant
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Posted: Sunday, May 06, 2012 - 01:30 AM UTC
Thank you for your suggestion Jeff, however I started armour modelling for just over a year now, still have completely no confidence in scratch building / modding kits. I usually build out of box, with the exception of decals. I'll try to see what parts from late model panthers i can get my hands on with my limited budget (student here, haha). Meanwhile I will try to take photos of my diorama for all to see.

Oh, I recently ordered a few sheets of transfers from Archer, should be arriving in 1-2 weeks time, including some flags and turret numbers, etc. I'll take photos of them, if possible the gurus here can advice me on what to use if it would be a 'what if' rebuild as said.

Thanks,

-Dexter
Rouse713
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Posted: Sunday, May 06, 2012 - 03:06 AM UTC
Normandy would most likely be best served as an Ausf A late.

Anyways, does this kit have zimmerit, or do you plan to add it? If you are doing a late surviving Ausf D, it would most likely have zimmerit. If you cannot add this, I would recommend restricting yourself to a late '43 scheme.

With that said, I will look through my sources and see if I can dig a photo up of some old ausf D's hanging around.
der_leutnant
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Posted: Sunday, May 06, 2012 - 03:25 AM UTC
Hi Mark, yes this kit already comes with Zimmerit, during my search, I came across this photo of a Panther D from the 12th SS, turret number '219'





Might not get the right decals and camo scheme to build this particular tank, but does it mean that other ausf D's served in Normandy too?
Rouse713
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Posted: Sunday, May 06, 2012 - 04:25 AM UTC
Ok, I found some photos as well. I stopped looking through my references once I found these, as they are late war Germany. I know there are other D's out there in 1944. I did find some survivors out to 1945, but they were being used for ceremonies. These are pretty rare and I would say the exception, but if your heart is set on a late war D, this is going to be one of the only probably options. Others care to chime in, not a panther expert?

The captions state these are training vehicles that were sent in under Panzerkampfgruppe von Hobbe and Massenbach. The photos are in Bamberg April 1945. There are two separate vehicles. Markings look minimal.










The pictures are crappy for 4 reasons:

1) I don't have a scanner hooked up to my computer yet
2) I am lazy and a camera is quick
3) The pictures are from Panzerwrecks 2. A really great book. The pictures I took are enough for discussion, but if you want more, I recommend purchasing them.
4) Did I mention I was lazy?


As a note with references, I am pretty young, but this may sound like it is coming from your grandpa. A modeler should really look at having a good collection of references and photos. This doesn't have to be in a physical form, though I can't think of a better means for the majority of about 95% of my photos. The only reason I have digital photos in my collection is:

1) The onezies twozies posted on forums from private collections that really interest me.
2) A publisher releases a digital copy of their books (which I think osprey is doing)

However, I see a lot of posts (thankfully not here at Armorama) about people scanning in hardcover books and uploading them for download. I don't know how these idiots think that this is going to encourage publishers to continue doing research and authoring new books.

I know Bill Cross usually gets lack-luster results when he posts a book review. I am not the best at getting excited for book reviews either. For Bronco's upcoming flak 41 88mm, I am stalking the websites waiting for reviews:


This is me waiting for an Armorama post on Bronco's flak 41.

That said, I think Bill C. is right in that a modeler should spend as much on reference as they do models. They really do help one become a better modeler.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I am sorry if it felt like I was directing this at the original poster. I was not trying to, you had a difficult question on a rare vehicle type. This forum is helpful because hopefully one of us has a reference photo or two, so please keep asking these questions. They are fun to answer!

This was simply a good example of where references are nice. I am seeing a trend of fewer and fewer people having modeling references and also a rise in pirating publications online. Please go steal other stuff, just don't hurt the WW2 history and modelling community. There is a reason Trojca books are ~$70-$100. The captions aren't always correct, but they are a plethora of images. Pirating them won't help these prices and will discourage them from releasing new material.

/Rant

der_leutnant
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Posted: Sunday, May 06, 2012 - 04:48 AM UTC
I do not defend myself here, but, as said, I have only been doing this for the past year or so. Hence, the lack of references. I agree one should have access to personal references to improve oneself, and I do intend to get them. I just have not decided on what to narrow my choice of vehicle / era. I seem to be narrowing my interest to panthers and the T55's. I like the idea of balanced manuverbility, firepower, armour, etc. My hobby finances come from myself, (not a lot of money, haha). That said, I am only able to flip through those books at stores. I do fault myself for having almost zero reference for a vehicle which I have grown to love. Do not feel sorry, I should. I have been brought up knowing one can only improve through criticisms and moving on (not implying yours was one ). I thank you for your time to look through your references, it helps one like me a lot. My hope now is to be able to complete this vignette in a high enough standard to make all your help to me fruitful.

I thank in advance for future help received, and for the help so far. This is a great community and I hope one day I will be able to contribute back to this wonderful community.

Regards,
Dexter.
Rouse713
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Posted: Sunday, May 06, 2012 - 04:55 AM UTC
Dexter,

Again, I was not directing any of that at you. I hope your build goes wonderfully. I am happy we were able to find some late D's. I have done it many a time, buying a kit only to realize it won't fit my subject matter. You'll do that less and less often as you get familiar with the vehicles.

I guess I had that rant built up and it came out here.
der_leutnant
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Posted: Sunday, May 06, 2012 - 05:05 AM UTC
Hi Mark,

I know you weren't directing them at me, but I know it applies to me too

Haha yes, I do hope I make less mistakes like these again, I just wish I won't abandon this project.

I guess I'd be looking at a vehicle from the 12th SS in Caen? Depending on the decals I can get my hands on, or when I get a reference that tells me otherwise. Meanwhile, I will always be open to suggestions and criticisms. I can only improve from there.

-Dexter
Rouse713
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Posted: Sunday, May 06, 2012 - 06:04 AM UTC
There has been some discussion on the photos you posted:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/47207/thread/1103286406/1103518195/Other+view+of+well+known+panther+in+normandy+%28photo%29

I can't make the best sense out of the discussion. Many say it was part of the 12th SS. Others say the soldiers riding on the tanks do not look like SS soldiers (which I would agree with). I guess one would have to look at other confirmed 12th SS photos and see if the turret markings are consistent.

At this point I would just go for it. It really shouldn't change much construction wise, only painting and markings.
der_leutnant
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Posted: Monday, May 07, 2012 - 03:48 AM UTC
I know I seem a little fickle (who am I kidding, very fickle indeed!), but I would like to know what are all your opinions if I were to continue a Berlin 1945 diorama, with the title "der Überlebende muss am Ende untergehen" (translation: the survivor must perish in the end"). Which depicts an abandoned Ausf D (probably survived from Kursk), fighting to defend Berlin. This therefore would still wear camo from Kursk, with updated turret numbers and unit insignia.

Now if I were to do that, what are the replacement parts I would need? As mentioned, I would need some new equipment such as revised commander's cupola, and heater. What about the steel roadwheels?

Sorry for being fickle guys

edit:
here is a photo of my base in its current state, not sure how and what colour to paint the rubble, currently looking at previously made dioramas for suggestions, seems to me that they were khaki (sort of) colour. Guess i'm way off.


oh, yes, got me a book from a local hobby store, still reading through, basically a book on panthers and brummbars. With details regarding differences between the variants of panthers.
CMOT
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ARMORAMA
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Posted: Monday, May 07, 2012 - 04:15 AM UTC
As this is brick rubble it should be various red brick shades to match the building, also add some ares of the colour shown on the plaster both in and out as unless there was a fire these colours will still show in limited amounts.
der_leutnant
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Posted: Wednesday, May 09, 2012 - 02:25 AM UTC
Hi guys,

Did some work on the panther.




Only done with the road wheels and the fruils. Starting work on the hull tomorrow.
der_leutnant
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Posted: Thursday, May 10, 2012 - 05:36 AM UTC
A little update, got my hands on a donor kit. A trumpeter E75 to be exact. The only things I see that can be used to make this a 1945 rebuild ausf.D are the cupola and the rangefinders, maybe the steel road wheels.
AikinutNY
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Posted: Thursday, May 10, 2012 - 06:07 AM UTC
I have seen pictures of combination Panthers used. One that comes to mine was a Ausf G body with a Ausf D turret.

So any combination could have been possible. The Zimerit would have been very worn, by that trime and they stopped applying it in 44. Bullets, shrapnel, trees and normal wear from troops walking and climbing on it would have worn it smoothy in places.

I have seen a Panther with a repair plate welded on eitther the side of the body or the turret. A well worn camo paint job with the repaired section in fresh primer as if it was covering a hole.
der_leutnant
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Posted: Thursday, May 10, 2012 - 06:21 AM UTC
Hi Jim, thanks for your reply!

Can you elaborate on what you mean by welded repair plate? Do I add a small cutout of plasticard and add it to the site of the tank (turret, etc), and paint it in oxide primer red?

As for the camo, would a three colour style camo from Kursk suffice?

And for the turret numbers / unit insignia, do I retain the ones from the original unit, or the new unit which it is assigned to?

Sorry for the many questions.

Thanks for the help,
-Dexter
AikinutNY
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Posted: Thursday, May 10, 2012 - 09:08 AM UTC
Dex,
I am not sure what the Panther Camo pattern was for Kursk, but if it had survived the next camo pattern would have been applied and if it went back to the factory or depot for a major rebuild or repair it would have been repainted.

They would take parts from one Panther and use it to get another back to the front quickly, rather than have two tanks down for two different problems. So you have a non damaged Panther body with a damaged turret and a good turret or rebuilt one, put them together and you now have a fighting Panther. That was shown by the picture I saw of the early Ausf D turret on a Ausf G Chassis, oil drum commander's hatch and the rotating driver's periscope.

The repair I saw was a Panther/Jadgpanther witha steel plate welded on the side of the engine compartment. It was not a pretty, tiddy weld like the add-on armor plates on the sides of Sherman. A repair like that would involve grinding away the Zim and paint so the weld would "stick" to the base metal. Then the repair would be primed to give the finish paint something to stick to.

You could go with a heavliy worn early paint job on the Ausf d chassis, Zimworn down where the crew would walk on it, large chunk knocked off and the red-brown primed repair patch on the rear side and a "Chin mantle" Ausf G turret in a none matching camo pattern. The same with the road wheels, drive sprockets, and idlers, some worn, some new in Dunklegelb.

I am collecting items to do a early M4A1 Sherman that makes it to Nurnberg in 1945, nothing will match, track links on backwards or its rubber worn out. A real repair job.
der_leutnant
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Posted: Thursday, May 10, 2012 - 01:20 PM UTC
Thanks for the help Jim, I will try to get a hold of an Ausf.G turret or late style mantlet. I look forward in seeing your M4A1 build. Must have been a real survivor.
Rouse713
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Posted: Thursday, May 10, 2012 - 03:41 PM UTC
Why not keep this as an Ausf D build? I don't know how many panthers got rebuilt. I have seen a few Normandy panthers that used to be D's and recieved A turrets. Or, the hulls were left over D's when the new A turrets went into production. Also, as Jim mentioned there may have been some G chassis with older turrets.

For what it's worth, the ausf D's I posted must have been training units thrown into kampf groups. They appear to be stock D's. Just a thought.



I do like the suspension. Did you cut off the posts on the arms to allow them to sag or is it just dry fit?
der_leutnant
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Posted: Friday, May 11, 2012 - 01:56 AM UTC
Hey Mark, I don't know, I just like the idea of having something different, something out of the ordinary in a losing war. To use whatever left, to it's limit. Especially if it involves the defence of your country's capital.

Anyway here's a small update, what do you guys think? It's all dry fitted. I don't want to cement it in and realise it's not that great. At least there's room for improvement. Took these from the donor E-75 kit.


edit: oh, almost forgot. about the suspension. I filed and sanded the ends of the axles so that it would move freely in the hexagonal hole of the hull. When the position was desired, i simply fixed the axles in place, and secured the tracks.
Rouse713
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Posted: Friday, May 11, 2012 - 04:09 AM UTC
Not to sound like a nagging person, but didn't those sights only show up on the "F" turret, which was never used in battle?

I'll be quite now and let you finish.