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Replacement!
35th-scale
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Kildare, Ireland
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Posted: Thursday, November 08, 2012 - 04:23 AM UTC
That's 10! Submit the request and I'm sure we'll have more before the start...
Tiger_213
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Posted: Thursday, November 08, 2012 - 11:49 AM UTC
That's nine by my count, unless I count toward the ten needed.
panzerbob01
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Posted: Sunday, November 18, 2012 - 02:55 PM UTC

Quoted Text

If I find something in my stash I'm in.
mmhhh
...
E-50 -- E-75
Jagdpanzer IV -- jagdtiger
panzer III -- panzer IV
marder II -- marder III

I'm in.



John:

Your list caused me some more thinking and may call for many of us to think about this some...

Sorry, but I have to toss a sort of a wet blanket, here! I have to say that I doubt any of your proposed pairings were actually intended as replacement-series!

Marders I, II, III were not built as replacements for each other - just based on different chassis all armed with the same 7.5cm PaK 40 (or the re-chambered Russian gun, on the first Pz. 38(t) - based Marder). Marder I used French Hotchkiss and Lorraine chassis, Marder II used the Panzer II chassis, Marder III used the Panzer 38(t) chassis. All served at the same time.

Panzer III and IV were contemporary and actually the IV really came into limited production before serial III production. They were initially built for 2 different roles in the same units. The IV later became the real workhorse, owing to its larger turret-ring and greater adaptability for bigger guns, but was not conceived and built to replace III!

The proposed E-50 and E-75 were simply different size and weight-classes - neither was conceived as any sort of replacement for the other.

And jagdpanzer IV and that jagdTiger... I doubt the Germans ever dreamed of replacing JP IV with the JT! It seems surreal that they would have figured on having only 128mm JT behemoths for their tank-destroyer elements! (i.e., replacing the effective JP IV with the huge and clumsy JT) I don't think any document suggests that they conceived of the JT to replace any other vehicle - it was an exploration into a new, heavier class of weapon to deal with bigger IS tanks and the like.

I mean No personal poke at you in any way - this "replacement" stuff is actually pretty difficult to wrap around, I think! For most of us, we probably think more in terms of revisions and upgraded versions to replace earlier models - so (keeping within WWII German) long-5cm-armed Pz III J and L were created as upgrades to replace the earlier 3.7cm E, F and G and shorter 5cm H tanks. The IV with a long 7.5cm gun did replace the III in usage, but I don't think we can argue that the IV series was actually conceived of or created to do that.

I could be far off, here, but I think when we speak here of "replacements" we are thinking of a new type to take over the old type's role - a new "better" recon vehicle, a new MBT for the next decade, etc.

Now... I do think you could make a real case for that JP IV being created to REPLACE the open-top Marder types (all) - same tank-destroyer role, better gun and armor and better crew-protection.

The E-50 was conceived as the replacement for the Panther, while the E-75 would be the standardized replacement for the KingTiger. And that JagdPanzer - 100 would probably be the replacement for the JT.

Truth be said, soon as I saw this thread, I started wracking the brain to ID real replacement series... Turned out to need some thinking! Things do come to mind, like the SdKfz 221/222/223 series was created to replace the SdKfz 13/14 cars, the SdKfz 232 8-rad was created to replace the 232 6-rad cars, the SdKfz 234 series was created to replace the 232 8-rad cars, the Pz II-L "Luchs" (and the 38(t) aufklarungspz) were created to replace the SdKfz 222 cars in recon, and the Panther was created to replace the Pz IV as the core tank. Maybe one could view the sWS as "replacing" some of the earlier, more-complex half-tracks, and the RSO maybe being created to replace mid-size trucks (albeit in a limited sense and intent). And the 7.5cm PaK 40 was created to replace the 5cm PaK 38, which was created to replace the standard 3.7cm Pak 35/37 gun!

This "replacements" campaign can really raise some thought and challenge, I think!

Cheers!

Bob
Tiger_213
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Posted: Sunday, November 18, 2012 - 08:50 PM UTC
Bob, way to literal. Yes, most of these 'replacements' were not built to specifically replace one-another. Only through their combat ability do they replace or succeed. Either way, one is the predecessor and one is the successor. Sometimes it's just nice to have a bigger gun; like the T-34 and 34/85 or early Mk. Merkava and the Mk. IV.
panzerbob01
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Posted: Monday, November 19, 2012 - 04:27 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Bob, way to literal. Yes, most of these 'replacements' were not built to specifically replace one-another. Only through their combat ability do they replace or succeed. Either way, one is the predecessor and one is the successor. Sometimes it's just nice to have a bigger gun; like the T-34 and 34/85 or early Mk. Merkava and the Mk. IV.



Chris;

Perhaps guilty-as-charged! Still... what I'm saying here is that there is certainly a gray zone in this "discussion"... are we seeking a "simple change in production details" as being a "replacement", or are we talking about functional replacement in service of one type by another? Two way-different things. Were the Panzer III J and L with the longer 5cm gun replacing another panzer III in production? YES. In service? Not really. Up-gunning the III WAS certainly adaptive in the face of recognition that smaller guns were in-effective against Russian tanks, and when older Pz III with shorter guns were brought in for refurb sometimes they received the new gun as a replacement... But all Pz III pretty much remained in service until they died.

It does seem that we blur here the distinction between continually up-grading and improving the current production line and actually taking the older line and type out of service and REPLACING them with something different. Older Pz III were up-gunned during refurb and returned to usage - but 5cm Pz III served 'till the end. Maybe it's a case of "using up the old stock".

On the other hand, the US Army actually REPLACED the old "jeep" with the M151 "mutt" in the 1960's - removing jeeps from all service and replacing them with mutts. The mutts in turn were taken out of service and replaced with Hummers. The Soviets replaced their old wheeled infantry carriers BTR 40 and BTR 152 with the BTR 60 series. This in turn was taken out of service and replaced by BTR 70, and now by BTR 80 series. These are, to me, more clearly "replacements" by new types in the same roles then serial upgrades. That's more like Ford eventually retiring the Model T and replacing it with other models - not just upgrades of T - from 1927.

Just as a parting fun exploration of this replacement theme and question... consider the German Panzer IV long-gun versions... F2/G introduces the long 7.5cm gun to replace the previous standard short 7.5cm. A useful and driven replacement to extend the service-life of the type in combat. Next, in the G came the schurzen... again a useful upgrade to extend service-life in combat. Next came zimmerit in the mid H... OK maybe also an upgrade to extend service life... or argued to do so but without much actual evidence for effectiveness. Next came the J... to simplify and save production cost. Next came... drop that zimm in mid J. This argued to maybe increase service life of the type, but again without much evidence. Next, in late J, came the Thoma mesh schurtzen... to save steel and cost. Lots of change. Some upgrade. Some actually down-grades. Each version replaced the previous in production but not in service (Part of my POINT!). All remained serving to the end!

Just fun!

By me: IF we are accepting here merely a within-series upgrade or detail change, then about any 2 Panzer III kits (or 2 Shermies, or 2 Abrahms, or 2 Tigers, or...) will fill the bill, and this becomes simply a "build 2 versions of a type" campaign, IMO. IF on the other hand the intent and vision is to find and depict a clear IN-SERVICE type-replacement, then... look for those types which came out to replace a prior type in a role or usage.

Just my opinion, of course!

I think I'll assuage my literal and curmudgeonly narrow-mindedness by doing 231 6-rad followed by a 232 8-rad! That one is a clear replacement of one type in service by another type!

Cheers!

Bob
1721Lancers
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Posted: Monday, November 19, 2012 - 04:36 AM UTC
Wow this is getting complicated.

Heres a simple example where you all can choose 2 from: Comet to Centurian to Chieftain to Challenger!
Of course you donīt have to use these.

Paul
Tiger_213
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Posted: Monday, November 19, 2012 - 07:58 AM UTC
" then about any 2 Panzer III kits (or 2 Shermies, or 2 Abrahms, or 2 Tigers, or...) will fill the bill, and this becomes simply a "build 2 versions of a type" campaign"

No. As I stated originally, Shermans would work if you would say M4A4 to Firefly. British used both and there are enough technical changes (mainly the bigger gun and turret) that would, in most peoples eyes (probably not yours) would qualify it as the successor.

I would NOT count the Abrahms, they've only received small changes over the years; usually computers.

Or as Jeff Tucker had suggested, the Italian Autoblinda 41 and 43. This does NOT qualify; though they have different guns the only noticeable change was from the 41's Breda 35 Autocannon to a 47mm gun, the change was never implemented due to the Italians surrender.

Paul, those would be nice to see in the campaign.

Guess that makes ten at any rate, will submit the campaign tonight.
J8kob_F
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Posted: Monday, November 19, 2012 - 08:32 AM UTC
I would like to participate with a strv 102 (a Swedish version of the centurion) and the strv 122
(Leopard 2) would that be okay? If so it will be my first builds on armorama, this being my first post !

Jakob
panzerbob01
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Posted: Monday, November 19, 2012 - 10:38 AM UTC

Quoted Text

" then about any 2 Panzer III kits (or 2 Shermies, or 2 Abrahms, or 2 Tigers, or...) will fill the bill, and this becomes simply a "build 2 versions of a type" campaign"

No. As I stated originally, Shermans would work if you would say M4A4 to Firefly. British used both and there are enough technical changes (mainly the bigger gun and turret) that would, in most peoples eyes (probably not yours) would qualify it as the successor.

I would NOT count the Abrahms, they've only received small changes over the years; usually computers.

Or as Jeff Tucker had suggested, the Italian Autoblinda 41 and 43. This does NOT qualify; though they have different guns the only noticeable change was from the 41's Breda 35 Autocannon to a 47mm gun, the change was never implemented due to the Italians surrender.

Paul, those would be nice to see in the campaign.

Guess that makes ten at any rate, will submit the campaign tonight.



Production versions (Pz III J superceding Pz III H and earlier, M4A4 superceding M4 and M4A1, Firefly superceding M4A4, Abrahms and LAVs and Strykers in the SEP, etc.) are all generally speaking successors and also presumably seen as improvements from earlier versions in that series and type. Up-gunning and up-armoring are seen as improvement in tanks of a type.

I guess I just cannot see how you can distinguish "Firefly" from the preceding M4A4 as a "replacement" while not seeing an up-graded M1A1 as a replacement for its predesessor, or the up-gunned AB-43 from its production predesessor AB-41. Seems a bit picking and choosing, to me. On the other hand, it is easy to see the Panther as a replacement in both production and service for the Pz IV series, the Tiger II (KT) as a production and service replacement for the Tiger I, etc. But that's me and my curmudgeonly blindness, I am sure!

Our dispute over usage of these terms not withstanding, there seems to be a buried opportunity here for a "up-gunned son" or an "upgrades in a family" or a "first and last version" 2-kit campaign, as distinct from a "New Type to do the old type's job" (more what I think I was initially thinking of (a "replacement" in both production and service) when I saw this campaign posted) 2-kitter!

Bob
Tiger_213
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Posted: Monday, November 19, 2012 - 12:22 PM UTC

Quoted Text

I would like to participate with a strv 102 (a Swedish version of the centurion) and the strv 122
(Leopard 2) would that be okay? If so it will be my first builds on armorama, this being my first post !

Jakob



Welcome Jakob. This would be fine as long as you use appropriate markings for you kits.

Bob, I'm sure it's just my wording (I've had issues with explaining things before as well!) Though I'm looking forward to seeing the Sd.Kfz. 231-6 and 232-8.

As for your criticism of my reasons for not agreeing with the AB41 and AB43, the AB43 was never built. You can't replace something with a non-existent item!

The M4 and M4A4 are only different in small changes (commanders copula, engine (though they're still gasoline powered radials) and gun caliber (1mm isn't exactly ground-breaking). These are merely upgrades. If I changed the campaign name to Upgrade! things like that would be fine, same as the Abrams M1A1 and M1A2. Unlike the Merkava Mk. 1 and Mk. 4 they've had numerous small changes, but have also added the same 120mm gun that's currently on the Abrams etc. as well as armor upgrades. They also added a 60mm mortar that wasn't present on the original Mk. 1 (though I may be wrong about the existence of the mortar on the Mk. 1).

Basically, there have to be significant changes to a system to qualify as a true replacement. Something that, if you were a crew member of the 'successor', would make you say "I want that vehicle!". I hope I cleared that up. (At least this makes for good discussion!).

Campaign submitted.
GaryKato
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Posted: Monday, November 26, 2012 - 07:20 AM UTC
Campaign approved (but check the campaign dates, Leader). Here is the link to the campaign page for enlisting.

Replacement Campaign Page
Tiger_213
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Posted: Monday, November 26, 2012 - 11:55 AM UTC
Thanks Gary, but what do you mean about the dates? If there are already too many start first quarter 2013 I'd have no issue with it being pushed back a little bit.
Tiger_213
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Posted: Monday, November 26, 2012 - 12:20 PM UTC
Oh, also. If anyone has ideas for the campaign ribbon I'd like to see them. Still haven't decided what to do with it yet.
GaryKato
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Posted: Monday, November 26, 2012 - 09:37 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Thanks Gary, but what do you mean about the dates? If there are already too many start first quarter 2013 I'd have no issue with it being pushed back a little bit.



I just wanted to make sure the dates on the campaign are correct. I altered the years on them but just want to make sure the rest is OK.
Tiger_213
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Posted: Tuesday, November 27, 2012 - 05:20 PM UTC
Ah, no. I'm happy with the dates Gary. Thanks a lot!
Tiger_213
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Posted: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 10:14 PM UTC
My current idea for the campaign ribbon;

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz318/Ary777/Replacmentcampaignribbon.gif

As I said before, if anyone has suggestions I'd like to see them.
tanknick22
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Posted: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 11:30 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Hey guy; just bumping the thread. Hoping to find some more interested people so I can get this submitted (correctly!).

Campaign would run from March 1st, 2013 to September 1st, 2013 unless people feel we need more time.




sounds like a interesting campaign
tanknick22
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Posted: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 11:34 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Bob, way to literal. Yes, most of these 'replacements' were not built to specifically replace one-another. Only through their combat ability do they replace or succeed. Either way, one is the predecessor and one is the successor. Sometimes it's just nice to have a bigger gun; like the T-34 and 34/85 or early Mk. Merkava and the Mk. IV.



Chris;

how about going from the XM1 ( pre chobham armor ) to the m1

Perhaps guilty-as-charged! Still... what I'm saying here is that there is certainly a gray zone in this "discussion"... are we seeking a "simple change in production details" as being a "replacement", or are we talking about functional replacement in service of one type by another? Two way-different things. Were the Panzer III J and L with the longer 5cm gun replacing another panzer III in production? YES. In service? Not really. Up-gunning the III WAS certainly adaptive in the face of recognition that smaller guns were in-effective against Russian tanks, and when older Pz III with shorter guns were brought in for refurb sometimes they received the new gun as a replacement... But all Pz III pretty much remained in service until they died.

It does seem that we blur here the distinction between continually up-grading and improving the current production line and actually taking the older line and type out of service and REPLACING them with something different. Older Pz III were up-gunned during refurb and returned to usage - but 5cm Pz III served 'till the end. Maybe it's a case of "using up the old stock".

On the other hand, the US Army actually REPLACED the old "jeep" with the M151 "mutt" in the 1960's - removing jeeps from all service and replacing them with mutts. The mutts in turn were taken out of service and replaced with Hummers. The Soviets replaced their old wheeled infantry carriers BTR 40 and BTR 152 with the BTR 60 series. This in turn was taken out of service and replaced by BTR 70, and now by BTR 80 series. These are, to me, more clearly "replacements" by new types in the same roles then serial upgrades. That's more like Ford eventually retiring the Model T and replacing it with other models - not just upgrades of T - from 1927.

Just as a parting fun exploration of this replacement theme and question... consider the German Panzer IV long-gun versions... F2/G introduces the long 7.5cm gun to replace the previous standard short 7.5cm. A useful and driven replacement to extend the service-life of the type in combat. Next, in the G came the schurzen... again a useful upgrade to extend service-life in combat. Next came zimmerit in the mid H... OK maybe also an upgrade to extend service life... or argued to do so but without much actual evidence for effectiveness. Next came the J... to simplify and save production cost. Next came... drop that zimm in mid J. This argued to maybe increase service life of the type, but again without much evidence. Next, in late J, came the Thoma mesh schurtzen... to save steel and cost. Lots of change. Some upgrade. Some actually down-grades. Each version replaced the previous in production but not in service (Part of my POINT!). All remained serving to the end!

Just fun!

By me: IF we are accepting here merely a within-series upgrade or detail change, then about any 2 Panzer III kits (or 2 Shermies, or 2 Abrahms, or 2 Tigers, or...) will fill the bill, and this becomes simply a "build 2 versions of a type" campaign, IMO. IF on the other hand the intent and vision is to find and depict a clear IN-SERVICE type-replacement, then... look for those types which came out to replace a prior type in a role or usage.

Just my opinion, of course!

I think I'll assuage my literal and curmudgeonly narrow-mindedness by doing 231 6-rad followed by a 232 8-rad! That one is a clear replacement of one type in service by another type!

Cheers!

Bob

Tiger_213
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Posted: Thursday, November 29, 2012 - 12:59 AM UTC
Nick can you re-post that without the quotes? I havn't a clue what text is quoted and what isn't (maybe because it's 4:00AM)!

I know NOTHING about prototype work on the Abrams. A quick look on Wiki for information on the XM1 didn't tell me much but Wiki is saying that the M1 used a 105mm gun (which doesn't sound right to me) so I'll assume the XM1 did as well. I'd have to say that isn't quite a 'replacement'; other than the Chobham they SHOULD be the same vehicle (again, I know NOTHING about the XM1) and thus would have to accept something like M1A1 to M1A2 with TUSK. I'm not trying to nit-pick but if a simple armor package constitutes something as a replacement we mine as well build a Sherman followed by a Sherman with a bit of track or sandbags on it.

Again, if you can show me something that is a noticeable difference I'd be happy to accept it. As for your question;

Quoted Text

are we seeking a "simple change in production details" as being a "replacement", or are we talking about functional replacement in service of one type by another?

(I assume it's your question and not part of Bob's text).

Functional replacements like the Leopard being replaced by the Abrams in many countries (same role/use wasn't necessarily planned in design stages).

Intended replacements like the M60 Patton being succeed by the Abrams (was on paper intended to replace the M60).

MAJOR upgrades like the T-34/76 and T-34/85 (same tank, completely new turret and gun, large improvements for the crew).

All of these are acceptable.

Building a Panzer IV Ausf. A and Ausf. B or similar small 'upgrades' is not.

As for the M1's 105mm gun, I'll ask my father in the morning. He was a mechanic on the M1 for a good many years.
1721Lancers
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Posted: Thursday, November 29, 2012 - 03:48 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Wow this is getting complicated.

Heres a simple example where you all can choose 2 from: Comet to Centurian to Chieftain to Challenger!
Of course you donīt have to use these.

Paul



O.k itīs still looking a little difficult, hereīs some
more that should work:
M4A? to M47/48 to M60 to Abrams M1
T34/?mm to IS1 to T54 to T72

Thatīs all Iīm going to add without leaning out of the window.
The thing that starting to get me is this, Christopher has put an interesting campaign together, with a set of his rules, and now some people are trying to find loopholes in
them. Why canīt we just do what Chris wants?
No hard feelings guys, but it doesnīt just happen here itīs
all over the place, and we all do it. Should we think about that or not?
Paul
Tiger_213
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Posted: Thursday, November 29, 2012 - 02:42 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Wow this is getting complicated.

Heres a simple example where you all can choose 2 from: Comet to Centurian to Chieftain to Challenger!
Of course you donīt have to use these.

Paul



O.k itīs still looking a little difficult, hereīs some
more that should work:
M4A? to M47/48 to M60 to Abrams M1
T34/?mm to IS1 to T54 to T72

Thatīs all Iīm going to add without leaning out of the window.
The thing that starting to get me is this, Christopher has put an interesting campaign together, with a set of his rules, and now some people are trying to find loopholes in
them. Why canīt we just do what Chris wants?
No hard feelings guys, but it doesnīt just happen here itīs
all over the place, and we all do it. Should we think about that or not?
Paul



I wouldn't say loop-holes Paul. In my mind I know exactly what qualifies. Not everyone is going to think about it the same way. For the most part everyone has understood the idea of the campaign, but as Bob said, a 'replacement' could be an M4 replaced by another M4, just under different terms. I've done my best to define the terms of the campaign and might still have to re-explain those terms. Even the far more straight-forward campaigns have questions as to what qualifies.

Oh, I asked my father about the M1, and it did indeed have a 105mm gun. I guess when the vehicle is older than I am and I've only ever known it as the M1A1 and A2 it's easy to forget it might have been different than it is now.
Tiger_213
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Posted: Monday, December 17, 2012 - 09:32 AM UTC
Right, I've had a bit of an accident today. My car ended up up-side-down in a field. I'm fine but I'll be dropping all campaigns. I'll also need to find someone to take over my 'Replacement!' campaign.

I'll still pop in on a couple campaigns but as far as I know right now I haven't got money to be spending on plastic tanks.
panzerbob01
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Posted: Monday, December 17, 2012 - 11:13 AM UTC
Chris;

Wow! BUMMER! But muy glad to hear you came out of things intact and alive. Going inverted in your car is no fun at all and yeah, I'm sure expensive. I can full understand having to step back from mere campaigns and needing to skip spending money on plastic for a bit.

Sorry to see this - best wishes and do your best as you get this all put back together. Enjoyed the many chats and I'm looking forward to seeing you back on the posts and ideally back with some plastic tanks and stuff soon!

Take care.

Bob
miniflea
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Posted: Monday, December 31, 2012 - 03:19 PM UTC
Chris, I'm sorry to hear about your accident, I hope you can get everything sorted out.

If someone else takes over the campaign, I have a few ideas I'd like to run by you guys. Originally I had thought to build a Wespe and a Hummel, but after thinking about it I believe both served more or less concurrently, (Wespe I believe first saw action during Citadel, not sure about Hummel) and the one isn't really a replacement for the other.

I could also do a Stug III ausf B and G. Not only was the gun upgraded but the role was largely changed from infantry support to anti-tank. I figure that is a large enough change to fit the criteria, although I'd certainly welcome any thoughts on the issue.

Failing that, what about a M3 Lee and an M4 Sherman? I don't know as much about American armor as I do German but my understanding is that the Lee was judged to be unsatisfactory and replaced completely by the Sherman.
Tiger_213
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Posted: Monday, December 31, 2012 - 03:32 PM UTC
Thanks Miniflea, I'd agree with the Wespe/Hummel.

StuG III Ausf. B to Ausf. G would work.

Now I'm just wondering where my response to Bob's post is... Either way, thanks for the well-wishes both of you.