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Wurf & Friends :: Rocket Weapons in WWII
panzerbob01
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Posted: Friday, December 07, 2012 - 10:06 AM UTC
Folks and fans:

Anyone up for a campaign around the screech and roar and smoky trails across the sky created by rocket-armed land vehicles and related towed stuff? This is just a feeler out to see if there are any other "wurf" fans out there itching to set up and launch some styrene rockets! I have some in my stash ... bet some of you out there do as well!

I am thinking of "real" stuff (in-service, built one-offs, prototypes, documented built experimentals. No paper panzers or planned - but - never -done things) from "the 1930's" through 1946. Any nation's follies would do. Rocket weapons on tracks, wheels, towed or (like those German 28cm wurframen simply stuck on a rail frame on the ground for launching) static ground-mounts.

Initially speaking:

This will focus on things like bombardment rockets mounted on vehicles - "Stuka zu Fuss", Calliope, 60-lb rockets on Staghound AC, Panzerwerfer 42 on sWS or Maultier, Katyusha, even Bazookas on Jeeps and Panzerschreck mounted on Borgward IV ("Wanze"), or towed launchers - Nebelwerfer 41 and 42, etc. Not "signal rockets" and the like, but actual weapons meant to scare, if not blast to oblivion, those fiends on "the other side"!

While not my initial interest here, things like V-2 on trailer launcher may be considered. Likewise, I am thinking land machines, but things like the rocket-launching landing-craft used at Normandy may be considered. I will not do aircraft in this run!

I am thinking the "usual" rules as for most campaigns:

Scale from 1/144 - 1/6
New builds only - no resurrected shelf-queens, please!
Kits, conversions or scratch-built
AM, PE encouraged but never required!
Must be REAL (documented things with a photo?) - no what-ifs and planned-never-done need apply
Vignettes and dios are encouraged but no figs or base are required

Campaign to start after 01 JUNE and run to 31 DEC 2013? Or maybe later?

There are quite a few kits and lots of subjects out there!

Partial subject list in no specific order includes

Katyusha versions on trucks and tank-hulls
28cm wurframen on all sorts of halftracks and tank-hulls (Hotchkiss h-39, Renault R-35, Renault UE, Lorraine L37, Pz IA, Pz IB, Pz. IV, SdKfz 251, Unic 205, etc.)
28cm wurf in stand-alone racks
Calliope on the Sherman
60-lb rockets on Sherman, Staghound AC
Nebelwerfer 41 and 42 trailed launchers
Panzerwerfer 42 on Maultier or sWS
3-inch Land Mattress
Bazookas on Jeeps
Panzerschrecks on bren carriers, Borgward IV, etc.
Heavy rockets on Sov BT-series tanks

Yes - that Sturmtiger is valid - fired a huge rocket projectile.

Interested? Ideas and suggestions? This is all new to me - I've never tried to start up a campaign before, so... just gently kick me when I misstep!

Bob
Tiger_213
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Posted: Friday, December 07, 2012 - 10:16 AM UTC
Didn't take you long at all Bob. Though if you're going to be this specific you should mention that a 'rocket' is something that is propelled by the force of thrust (exhaust power) pushing against the object that needs a form of locomotion! I would be in for this with a Nebelwerfer, and I'll see about getting one of the staff to change my thread/ or create a new one based around conventional artillery. I hope you're still in the the re-new Conventional Artillery 150mm and Up campaign!
panzerbob01
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Posted: Friday, December 07, 2012 - 10:27 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Didn't take you long at all Bob. Though if you're going to be this specific you should mention that a 'rocket' is something that is propelled by the force of thrust (exhaust power) pushing against the object that needs a form of locomotion! I would be in for this with a Nebelwerfer, and I'll see about getting one of the staff to change my thread/ or create a new one based around conventional artillery. I hope you're still in the the re-new Conventional Artillery 150mm and Up campaign!



Yeah... So, Chris, How could I ever resist! And yeah, "what goes around..." already here! (You are so right about rockets - and no, I am no interested in jet stuff here! No V-1 need apply!)

And I am most certainly still in for the heavy cal GUN thing, however it gets defined (as long as you are still allowing 150mm s.IG 33 howitzer type things, of course! )!

Nebelwerfer sounds just fine by me! Which kit are you thinking of? Welcome aboard and it's 2 down and 8+ to go!

Bob
Tiger_213
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Posted: Friday, December 07, 2012 - 10:35 AM UTC
Er, I can only think of the Verlinden 'kit'....can that even be called a kit? And Lion Roar makes both the 150mm and 210mm launchers. Likely to go with the Lion kits at that rate, unless they're somehow extremely faulted, which I find impossible to believe.
panzerbob01
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Posted: Friday, December 07, 2012 - 01:54 PM UTC
Chris;

Towed Nebels...

Those LionRoar kits are super cool - there is a bit of careful work apparently in the assembly of the metal tubes - lots of fine detail, rails inside, etc. - but you cannot get a better depiction for love or money! I THINK Italeri made a styrene 150mm version - sold with an SdKfz 10 track... kinda last century, but I think it can be built up with some detail work.

Cheers!

Bob
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Posted: Friday, December 07, 2012 - 02:03 PM UTC
I would be interested in partaking in your campaign. I'm actually building a Katyusha mounted on a panzer 4 for the What If Campaign. I actually plan to make a mobile V1 launcher based on a Tiger P chassis at some point.

But for this one, howabout mounting a Maultier style launcher on a panzer 2 or an old Italeri Panzer 38t. For that matter I've got a few 21cm rockets. Maybe some sort of launcher there as well? Might even do multiple pieces. Not to mention clean out the spares. Are those too what-if-ish?
Tiger_213
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Posted: Friday, December 07, 2012 - 02:41 PM UTC
Yeah I read about that on Perthmilitarymodeling. Great site with all their side-by-side reviews. And I found out about the Italeri simply because I found some after-market parts, have yet to see the actual kit. I think I'll do the Nebelwerfer, really small 'crew loading the next salvo' diorama. A nice comparison to the Leopold; though only slightly less potent, or more-so depending on how you look at it.

Alex, surprised there wasn't plans for something like a mobile V-1 launcher.
1721Lancers
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Posted: Friday, December 07, 2012 - 10:19 PM UTC
Hi Bob,
now you really have started something.
I´ve been checking up on Petard spigot mortar and found
this:
here´s the qoute
"Firing the Petard was accomplished with a spring loaded rod (large firing pin). With the rod cranked back, it could be released to impact and ignite the propellant charge located on the mortar round. This process fired the large 290-mm demolition charge with adequate accuracy."

It looks to me like the Petard is a mix of both worlds.
It´s fired from within the turret using a simple spring mechanism to hit a percussion cap, like a hand held weapon, but uses some sort of propellant to get out and away from the barrel or tube in this case. The propellant was only short lived maybe 2 seconds of flight, which would make it unlike a rocket and more of a shot. And in the quote it states fired and not propelled. Tecnically a propellant, as in a rocket, is part of the flying object, which also fits but only to a very remote extent.

So in which campaign do I place my Churchill here or over with Christopher
Paul
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Posted: Saturday, December 08, 2012 - 06:15 AM UTC
Christopher, I'm a bit surprised myself. I took the idea of a mobile V1 launcher from Sal. He mentioned it in the Super Heavy Campaign thread. I have a Tiger P hull in the spares. I don't have the rocket and wasn't planning on doing anything on it for a bit. I might try to build it for What-If 4. I'm also surprised someone hasn't popped up with a picture of a Panzer 4 sporting a Katyusha launcher. That would really screw up my idea for What-If 3, which starts later this month.
1721Lancers
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Posted: Saturday, December 08, 2012 - 07:08 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Christopher, I'm a bit surprised myself. I took the idea of a mobile V1 launcher from Sal. He mentioned it in the Super Heavy Campaign thread.



Hello Alex,
that´s not quite right dude, Sal qouted it as a good idea.
I told you to use the E 100 hull as launch pad
quote:
If I was going to build these two again I would get both
and stick Trumpeters turret on Dragons hull.
And instead of disregarding the Trumpy hull, I´d think about
adding a V1 to it, as a greatgrandfather for the mobile missile units
But that´s only my 2 cents

remember

Paul
Bluestab
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Posted: Saturday, December 08, 2012 - 07:51 AM UTC
Paul, I apologize. It's a great idea and I hate that I goofed on giving the correct credit. Where I messed up was I had messaged Sal about what he thought about a mobile launcher using the Tiger (P) instead.

Tiger_213
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Posted: Saturday, December 08, 2012 - 09:06 AM UTC
I've heard of a Katusha/Panzer IV, someone had full spare hull and was asking for suggestions and that came up. DML has re-released their V-2 as Orange Box so only 25$ for a pretty cool kit.
Hangelafette
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Posted: Saturday, December 08, 2012 - 10:31 AM UTC
Bob,

I'm game for this too, funny how one campaign idea will inspire another. My first armor kit, 25+ years ago, was the Testors rebox of the Italeri 251 mit wurframen, which I never finished.

I actually have the Wespe Hanomag and was considering purchasing the trailer (which is pricey but on sale) and the Cyper-Hobby V-2. Wespe sells a trailer with the rocket, but the price is . I will likely settle for something less ambitious.

Paul - I'm building the AFV Club Churchill AVRE IV for the D-Day campaign and it is an awesome kit. It has been a joy to build, even with its insanely complex suspension.


Nate
panzerbob01
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Posted: Saturday, December 08, 2012 - 12:20 PM UTC
@Nathan

Well... pick a rocket and climb on!

About the Petard Mortar: The spigot mortar (that AVRE Petard on the Churchill is a type of spigot mortar) is "simply" a mortar where the "barrel" is small and attached to the projectile, as versus the more-typical form where the projectile slips down into a barrel or tube and is kicked out. So, a sort of "inverted" mortar! The spigot mortar has a very small propellant charge inside of its small tail-pipe - the tail-pipe fits down over a hollow rod (the spigot) which has a firing pin which strikes into that propellant charge and detonates it. In contrast, the standard mortar is most commonly a muzzle-loader device which consists of a barrel (tube) with a fixed striker pin on the bottom plate. The projectile carries a bagged or other external propellant charge and a primer cap for ignition - and when dropped down that barrel, the pin strikes that cap and detonates the charge.

Both spigot and typical mortars operate on the same principle as does the musket, cannon, or howitzer or rifle: a slug or projectile which is kicked out of the barrel by a bursting or detonating propellant charge. The projectile emerges from the muzzle at its peak velocity, and loses speed as it travels to the target.

Spigot mortars, unlike most standard mortars, are generally fired "on demand" with a trigger.

In contrast; A rocket or rocket-propelled projectile, whether launched from the ground, a frame or box or rail, or out of a tube - like barrel, rides a motor, and accelerates away from the launcher or start-point, and keeps accelerating as long as it has propellant on board. So, such projectiles may remain under power right up to impact with their target.

The Bazooka was a "short-impulse" rocket - and would burn out after perhaps a second - which severely limits its range as a Bazooka bomb once burned-out rapidly loses speed and falls.

The German "Wurf" likewise was a relatively short-burn motor - but burned a few seconds, boosting the bomb to maybe 230m / sec before quitting. The bomb would continue in a ballistic arc for up to 4500m... BLAM!

Just FYI about some "special cases" of interest to us military fans... Do NOT confuse the Panzerfaust with a Bazooka - the Bazooka (and the Panzerschreck) was a rocket launcher. The 'faust, in contrast, was best described as a smooth-bore recoilless musket, with the warhead out at one end of the barrel! NOT a rocket. It used a detonating propellant charge to fire that bomb - sort of like an armor-piercing spigot mortar.

And one more deviant... the Soviet RPG is a rocket (very short impulse motor...) projectile - but one which is first launched from a tube by a bursting charge! So, a combo of Panzerfaust and Bazooka!

To all who want to think "Churchill with AVRE Petard Mortar" for this possible campaign; this more properly belongs in Christopher's Heavy Cal campaign, as it was a true mortar. Not, you understand, that I don't like the Petard... because anything called a "flying dustbin" just has to be cool, and it IS!

Bob
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Posted: Saturday, December 08, 2012 - 01:05 PM UTC
Bob, I didn't even think about RPGs and such. That definitely could open things up for the figure and vignet crowd.
panzerbob01
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Posted: Saturday, December 08, 2012 - 04:12 PM UTC
Alex;

Bazookas - YES. Sov RPG? NO. (Ah ha! One of those tricky detail moments! I did specify thru 1946... and that RPG is a later thing. But the US Bazooka or the Panzerschreck? Sure thing!)

For those interested in some little odd and ends stuff... The Dragon figures kit with those Panzerschreck on the infantry - cart being pulled by the pony would certainly be "legit", as would any kit or build using that 8.8cm Racketenwerfer 43 "Puppchen". The Puppchen was a Panzerschreck on a mount with a crude breech assembly... a sort of sup'd-up Bazooka-gun!

But... NO PIAT need apply here! PIAT was a spigot mortar...!

Bob
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Posted: Saturday, December 08, 2012 - 09:06 PM UTC
Bob you may want to consider opening this campaign up to items such as the Natter and Komet to encourage more members to dip their toes.
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Posted: Saturday, December 08, 2012 - 09:18 PM UTC
Just to screw with your campaign, I'm going to have BOTH a 'Faust and 'schreck somewhere in my scene! Thanks for the information about the 'schreck though, didn't know it was something completely different from the 'faust.

Had thought about the Bazooka and RPG, though I already have plans for the former and don't really care much for modern topics with the latter.
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Posted: Sunday, December 09, 2012 - 06:00 AM UTC
Bob, Argh! Didn't see the 1946 limit.

What was the name of the multibarrel launcher thing in the old Dragon German Nightfighter Figure Set? I believe those were small rockets. I'm thinking an ambush scene with a variety of rocket based antitank weapons.

Christopher, I think that reference to the Panzer 4 with the Katyusha launcher was me. The guy had an extra panzer hull and wanted ideas to do something with it. I suggested the launcher idea.

panzerbob01
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Posted: Sunday, December 09, 2012 - 08:28 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Bob you may want to consider opening this campaign up to items such as the Natter and Komet to encourage more members to dip their toes.



@ Darren;

OK! Sounds like an idea, to me!

So... @ ALL WHO MAY BE LURKING AROUND on this idea - concept - thread...

Natter is IN! (Natter was a rocket "fighter", armed with rockets! A cool-sounding bridge between wingy-thingies and rockets, while keeping in a sort of intended "spirit" here of rockets as weapons in WWII)

Likewise the Japanese "Ohka" piloted rocket-bomb. I wouldn't have stepped up to ride one of these myself - NO WAY!- , but a human guidance mechanism on a rocket-bomb is still inside our rocket-weapon envelop here!

The Me 163 Komet, while a rocket, really was a cannon-equip'd fighter-plane. I would prefer to keep back from this one, but if there is huge popular pressure...

This also does open the door to models of various WWII-era anti-air rockets and other rocket-bombs, such as that Henschel He 293 anti-ship thing.

Oh, and for those looking further a-field into WWII rocket-weapon weirdness... That zany Brit "Great Panjandrum" rocket-propelled demolition device designed to attack Rommel's Atlantic Wall would count! (I actually scratched one a these back ca 1973... not a good depiction of it, mind... but I did get a GPD onto my shelf! Prof. Barnes did MUCH better with his dam-buster bombs!)

@ Chris; "Go ahead and screw around with "my campaign" if you dare, Sir! It'll be Fausts at dawn! Fausts at dawn, I say!" What's no to like about having some 'fausts and 'schrecks together in a scene? Bigger party!

@ Alex; The multi-barrel thing you are thinking of was something called a "Luftfaust" or perhaps more technically-correct, "Fliegerfaust". A late-war man-carried AA rocket-launcher. Each barrel held a small rocket (yeap! this one counts as a rocket weapon!) with a 2cm projectile on it. So the happy gunner would let lose a serial swarm of small "2cm flak-equivalent" rockets at a near aircraft. It actually made it into prototype production and a few may have been used... were any "kills" claimed? I would bet! Were any MADE...? Hmmmmm.! Bring it on!

Bob @
panzerbob01
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Posted: Sunday, December 09, 2012 - 08:39 AM UTC
@ All; Remember; this campaign concept is aimed at WWII rocket-weapons stuff. The 1930's and WWII saw a lot of experimentation and opportunistic one-off "development" of rocket weapons (or maybe rockets as weapons?) -

Things like mounting wurfs on Pz. IV hulls, captured Katyusha racks on available hulls, etc. all did, I think, occur.

IF you can find any sort of support to show it isn't just a "what-if" imaginary thing, BRING IT ON!

Bob
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Posted: Sunday, December 09, 2012 - 10:40 AM UTC
Bob,

The scope & timeframe sound good! (Got a Sturmtiger & a Sherman calliope in the stash...)

Just to push the envelope, is this just "aimed" at offensive weapons, or would things like mine-clearing rockets fit in? I seem to remember photos of a Sherman with lots of prongs on the front, as mountings for a fistful of rockets...

Tom
panzerbob01
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Posted: Sunday, December 09, 2012 - 11:50 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Bob,

The scope & timeframe sound good! (Got a Sturmtiger & a Sherman calliope in the stash...)

Just to push the envelope, is this just "aimed" at offensive weapons, or would things like mine-clearing rockets fit in? I seem to remember photos of a Sherman with lots of prongs on the front, as mountings for a fistful of rockets...

Tom



Tom; Mine-clearance rockets? Don't see why not! I've read somewhere about something like that (I think...). There were all sorts of things tried - I seem to recall reading about some Brit trying to launch or drag a set of cables or something out across a mine-field using rockets... maybe something related, maybe just a product of my failing memory Right out there with the Panjandrum!

Whichever way you actually go, glad to have another warm body on board!

Bob
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Posted: Sunday, December 09, 2012 - 02:36 PM UTC
Bob, Thanks. I've got two of them and never really knew much about them.

It's quite a ways off before this one would start so I'll be kicking around ideas. AIt never hurts to have options. Anyway, I'm kind of playing around with the ambush scene.

I'm going to assume a recoilless weapon would be out of the question?
panzerbob01
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Posted: Sunday, December 09, 2012 - 03:18 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Bob, Thanks. I've got two of them and never really knew much about them.

It's quite a ways off before this one would start so I'll be kicking around ideas. AIt never hurts to have options. Anyway, I'm kind of playing around with the ambush scene.

I'm going to assume a recoilless weapon would be out of the question?



@Alex; IF the "recoilless thing is, say, a Bazooka, Panzerschreck, Puppchen, or other rocket-launcher, it would of course be IN. A recoilless rifle, like as found on that "Ontos" or in various other formats, is, like the Panzerfaust, NOT a rocket weapon, so...

Bob