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Campaigns: Completed Campaigns
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Hosted by John Pereira
What If 4: Machines of the Mind
Bluestab
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South Carolina, United States
Joined: December 03, 2009
KitMaker: 2,148 posts
Armorama: 1,905 posts
Posted: Monday, February 24, 2014 - 06:18 AM UTC
Another thing to consider with upgunning tanks is that many of these tanks were upgunned during their service lives. You see what the Soviets did to mount a 85mm gun on a T34. A larger turret is the"easy" fix. But as Paul posted, you have to keep it within reason or else it just looks comical.

I'd also suggest that it wouldn't be a bad thing for these what-if designs to have design flaws. Even in real life, the vehicles had flaws...it was just weighing the acceptability of some of these flaws.

All that said, I'd go with the 17pdr. Go with a larger turret. I'm not sure what the benefits of going with a QF 75mm gun would have over the original 76mm gun on the T34. A while back I had the idea of building a what-if US version of a T34. I got bogged down in the armaments and let the project fizzle out. Anyway, you know you can squeeze a 17 pdr in to a Sherman turret so you have some idea of size ability there.

Whatever you go with, good luck and have fun.
ComradeMP
#0
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United States
Joined: July 31, 2011
KitMaker: 416 posts
Armorama: 397 posts
Posted: Monday, February 24, 2014 - 03:04 PM UTC
Thanks for the replies.

This is a double build now, KV-1 / T-34. I do have a spare T-34/85 turret I could modify, this option looks like less work than trying to reshape the kit turret. Not sure what to do with the fuel drums, I'm thinking of mounting only two on the rear above the exhausts.

For the KV, I'm moving the driver to the far left, hull MG to the far right, headlights down by the fender/idler. Trading out the single hatch for two (driver/machine gunner) with periscopes similar to the one's on the Sherman. Bunch of other things to the turret, like removing the rear facing MG, commander's coupla. I have a Churchill VII I can cannibalize parts from. Looks like the KV turret is larger. One flaw I could point out for this build would be it's 75mm, was a good all around round, but lacking in penetration. Thinking of this as a Infantry tank.
Bluestab
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South Carolina, United States
Joined: December 03, 2009
KitMaker: 2,148 posts
Armorama: 1,905 posts
Posted: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 - 05:56 AM UTC
You could also say the T34 was going to be used more as a infantry tank with some antitank capability and arm it with the 75mm gun. Since you're doing the KV, arm it with the 17pdr. To me, the KV would fit better as a heavier armed and armored tank. The KV turret would work well, especially if it's the non-cast version. You could even stretch it a bit without a great deal of difficulty.

Either way, you've got a neat pair of projects where you can mix British and Soviet designs.
sneakypete
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Armed Forces Pacific, United States
Joined: June 10, 2006
KitMaker: 149 posts
Armorama: 73 posts
Posted: Monday, March 03, 2014 - 03:13 AM UTC


Here is the start of my M41, with the Israeli Magach treatment. A few countries still use the M41, Tunisia being one. The basic idea is that Morocco ordered M1's so Tunisia needed to upgrade their tanks in response to uprisings and common ammo with the M60 shooting 105.


Upgrade the engine, cut the back deck off. I didnt have a razor saw so I scribed the lines until I broke through then used cotton thread as a saw. Placed the grate on he back for exhaust and made it a flat back not angled down.

Had to adjust the lower hull to connect the modification. The new deck is made of sale signs and plastic from a body wash bottle. Did I mention I am in Afghanistan with the Army so I was trying to do this on the cheap and use what I had available.
I wanted to add new armor, its composit/era armor. I made a few masters with Aves epoxy and plastic, cast them in an Instamorph moldable plastic mold (I wrote a review about Instamorph, really neat stuff) and used the Aves for the piece.
More updates as I get them.

Regards,
Dan
Tiger1944
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Victoria, Australia
Joined: October 11, 2013
KitMaker: 160 posts
Armorama: 152 posts
Posted: Thursday, March 06, 2014 - 07:11 PM UTC
Some great builds already taking place!
Tomorrow I will do my best to get a start on my M60A1 Patton which will be atomic powered and set in a Fallout / post apocalyptic setting. Will have to raid the spares box and make some type of atomic engine for it.
Will post some start up pics tomorrow when I start building.
Bluestab
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South Carolina, United States
Joined: December 03, 2009
KitMaker: 2,148 posts
Armorama: 1,905 posts
Posted: Friday, March 07, 2014 - 05:33 PM UTC
I was moving around soem finished kits on the shelf and came across my old Tamiya Churchill. That thing would be a great candidate for an assault version. I'd keep it armed with an infantry support gun...probably a 25pdr or maybe a larger howitzer.

Anyway, probably won't try to do it this go-around...I already have two assault style vehicles on the boards.
Tiger1944
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Victoria, Australia
Joined: October 11, 2013
KitMaker: 160 posts
Armorama: 152 posts
Posted: Saturday, March 08, 2014 - 03:53 PM UTC
Back story:
As resources dwindle and tensions increased, the USA and China met on the battlefield. It was a short and brutal war that escalated into all out nuclear war.
Millions died instantly as major cities were taken off the map, though some survived in large underground vaults. After generations of vault living, some decided to venture to the world above. A world almost devoid of life, and what life there is around is best to avoid anyway. Mutant giant scorpions, mole rats, radioactive ghouls and gangs of merciless bandits roam the desert landscape.
War never changes.

My build will be a nuclear powered M60A1, set in a desert scene reminiscent of the "Fallout" game universe. The tank will be built as long abandoned and weathered by the harsh desert elements.


Managed to get my entry started yesterday and got most of the lower hull assembled. Next up will be scratch building the atomic engine and bay..time to use artistic license

Entry photo:

The scorpion in the box will be a Radscorpion!
Progress on lower hull:



gcdavidson
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Ontario, Canada
Joined: August 05, 2003
KitMaker: 1,694 posts
Armorama: 1,559 posts
Posted: Sunday, March 09, 2014 - 09:21 AM UTC
Still bouncing around some ideas...




sneakypete
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Armed Forces Pacific, United States
Joined: June 10, 2006
KitMaker: 149 posts
Armorama: 73 posts
Posted: Monday, March 10, 2014 - 06:23 PM UTC

Work in the turret. Put a bead of aves along the edge of turret and dabs of aves on the side to support the armor. I made a mantel cover and blowout panels on the roof above ammo storage. Added supplemental armored tilesto the roof.

to cut down on the gaps on the side armor I laid them flat and glued some foil to act as a hinge. Will fill in with putty and scribe panel lines later.

dry fitting when cutting the armor to shape


Shermanguy
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Ontario, Canada
Joined: January 22, 2004
KitMaker: 23 posts
Armorama: 12 posts
Posted: Wednesday, March 19, 2014 - 12:39 AM UTC
Hi everyone.

This is my first campaign here on Armorama. I decided to join after seeing my good friend Paul Robert's Australian Churchill in the flesh at our club meeting a month ago.

Here's the backstory to my entry:

In 1956, during the Suez crisis, the Israeli army got its first close up look at the Centurions used by the British and the M47s used by the French. They also realised that Egypt was moving into the Soviet sphere and would soon be getting more moderns Russian tanks. They decided that their poor retread Shermans needed to be replaced with something more modern before the next time they face Egypt.

Secret negotiations began with both England and France to supply tanks. This resulted in the Centurion from England. It also resulted in a couple of French M47 tanks begin supplied to Israel for extensive desert trials. The Israelis liked the M47 for its mechanical reliability, especially compared to the Centurion. Unfortunately, the price France wanted for M47s was much more than Israel could pay at the time.

Throughout the remainder of the 1950s and into the early 1960s, Israel tried to get M47 or M48 tanks. The M47s were generally available, but were expensive. The M48s were generally not available.

Although the official U.S. policy in the late 1950s and early 1960s was to avoid selling any modern military equipment to Middle East countries, they did sell a lot of equipment to Jordan to convince them to remain in the western sphere. To offset this without upsetting the Arab countries, the U.S. made a secret arrangement with West Germany to hand over approximately 200 M47 tanks to Israel as part of their reparation payments. These arrived, mostly at night, into the port at Haifa between 1963 and 1966.

At first, Israel used the M47s in their original configuration. Although they we mechanically reliable, their poor mileage and high profile was of concern. Since Israels had already begun a program to replace the engines in their Centurions with Continental AVDS-1790-2A diesel engines and the Allison CD850-6 transmissions, they decided to do the same thing with their M47 fleet. Concurrent with this was a plan to replace the gun with the British L7 105 mm gun. The Israeli firm of Urdan had designed a new cupola for the Centurion, and this was adopted to the turret of the M47 to lower the profile somewhat.

These upgraded Patton tanks, as they were known, were first used in combat in 1967 against the Egyptians, to great success.
During that war, about 100 additional M47s were captured from Jordan, along with a handful of M48s. The gasoline powered M48s were traded to Pakistan for additional M47 tanks, which were subsequently upgraded.

The M47s were again used in 1973 against Egypt. Unfortunately, Israel's experience in that conflict showed that their current fleet of tanks were susceptible to Anti-Tank Guided Weapons such as the AT-3 Sagger and RPG-7. In typical Israeli fashion, Blazer add-on Explosive Reactive Armour was developed. This was first deployed when Israel entered Lebanon in 1982.

My model will represent an Israeli M47 tank (called the Magach in hebrew) in Lebanon in 1982, complete with all of the above noted modifications (Continental engine with the revised rear engine deck, 105 mm gun, Urdan cupola, Blazer armour on turret and hull front, 50 cal machine gun on mantlet, as well as all other typical added Israeli bits and bobs.

I plan on using the Italeri M47 mated to an engine deck and rear from an Academy M60 that I have laying around somewhere. I'm not sure yet how I'm going to modify the cupola. The Blazer armour will all be scratch built from styrene. Other parts will be from the spares boxes. I'm going to try and locate a set of AFV Club T80E1 tracks, as I would expect the Israelis to use steel tracks instead of rubber tracks in the rocky Lebanese terrain. If I can't find these, I'll use the tracks from a Dragon M46 kit, and fix the end connectors around the sprockets and idlers so that they are at the correct angle.

Below is a Spanish M47E2, which has the engine and gun upgrades. Clearly, what I wrote is conceivable.

tankmodeler
#417
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Ontario, Canada
Joined: March 01, 2004
KitMaker: 3,087 posts
Armorama: 2,503 posts
Posted: Thursday, March 20, 2014 - 02:49 AM UTC
So! After all the grief you gave me abuot my last two What Ifs, you're joining the campaign with one of your own???

Oooo, I'm gonna rag you and your concept something serious next meeting boyo! Just you wait!

Paul "not-so-good friend" Roberts
Shermanguy
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Ontario, Canada
Joined: January 22, 2004
KitMaker: 23 posts
Armorama: 12 posts
Posted: Friday, March 21, 2014 - 07:29 AM UTC
After trying to explain all the pitfalls in your stories, I felt compelled to enter and show you want a real what if is all about.

The difference is my what if makes sense - why would the Israelis take a beat up, cramped Su 100 with a gun that the French M50 75 mm out performed, and expend all that effort to mount it on a Sherman chassis? It just doesn't make sense.

Same with your Aussie Churchill - in 1941, the Churchill was a piece of junk. It couldn't move more than a mile without at least 10-20 hours of maintenance and repairs. It wasn't until mid-1942 with the Mk III that the vehicle finally became somewhat reliable, and even then, it required a hell of a lot more maintenance than most other vehicles. In the real timeline, the Aussie's started designing their Sentinel in the fall of 1940 - the Churchill was still on the drawing board then. In addition, the Sentinel was a cruiser tank, not an I tank, so the 10 mph Churchill wouldn't even have been considered.

If the Aussies were looking for something to base their own tank on, and did not have access to reliable American technology, they would have picked Valentine components - they were way more reliable than the crappy Churchill, and with the right engine, the suspension could easily do 20-30 mph, good enough for a 1940-era cruiser. Besides, it's likely Vickers would have given them better terms than Nullfield (the Crusader builder) who ripped off the UK government with an overpriced, obsolete vehicle.

Ok, go ahead and tell me that my story about Israeli M47s instead of M48s is full of holes....I dare you..

Chuck

BTW, you're still a good friend, even if you have a lousy sense of history.
rfbaer
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Texas, United States
Joined: June 12, 2007
KitMaker: 1,747 posts
Armorama: 1,586 posts
Posted: Thursday, April 03, 2014 - 03:24 AM UTC
I'm not even IN this campaign, but it sure it fun. I really like the idea of the IDF M47. Actually, an IDF M41 is something I've given more than passing thought to as well.
Bluestab
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South Carolina, United States
Joined: December 03, 2009
KitMaker: 2,148 posts
Armorama: 1,905 posts
Posted: Tuesday, April 15, 2014 - 07:19 AM UTC
Big update.
First up the Assault Sherman. It gets a bit chaotic because of the changes I have made since my last update.

I fabbed up a gun sight. The loader's hatch was added, but I thought it too thick so I changed it. The commander's shield and gun mount were mounted. I used scrap PE fret for that.

I added some of the vehicle's equipment. Two ventilators. The cleaning rod is two Sherman rods. I trimmed off one of the lengths and sat it on top of the other one. I'm probably going to place jerry cans on either side of the cleaning rods.


Another view showing other equipment. Also notice the loader's hatches have been removed to be replaced.


The new hatches. I also decided to remove the vision port from the hull sides.




The upper hull casement is pretty huge. I wish I had angled the sides and had it about a cm lower that it is. To break up the monotony of the open flat sides, I added a length of spare track to the front and grab handles to the sides.




And with that, basic assembly on the Assault Sherman is done. I then turned my attentions to the Assault Stuart.

Addressed assembly needed on the running gear.


I used my templates to make the styrene pieces.


Began assembling the upper casements plates, including the knockout and boxed out area for the gun mount. For the gun, I'm using the one from the old Italeri M24. I didn't take any pictures of it, but I cut the gun's mantlet narrower.




Gun placed in mount. I think it looks pretty sharp as an open-top vehicle. Maybe the next What-If will see a rebuild of my AFV M5A1 as an open-topper with the 76mm gun.


Anyway, that's it for now.
maultier
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Buenos Aires, Argentina
Joined: December 02, 2004
KitMaker: 55 posts
Armorama: 60 posts
Posted: Tuesday, April 15, 2014 - 02:46 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Big update.
First up the Assault Sherman. It gets a bit chaotic because of the changes I have made since my last update.

I fabbed up a gun sight. The loader's hatch was added, but I thought it too thick so I changed it. The commander's shield and gun mount were mounted. I used scrap PE fret for that.

I added some of the vehicle's equipment. Two ventilators. The cleaning rod is two Sherman rods. I trimmed off one of the lengths and sat it on top of the other one. I'm probably going to place jerry cans on either side of the cleaning rods.


Another view showing other equipment. Also notice the loader's hatches have been removed to be replaced.


The new hatches. I also decided to remove the vision port from the hull sides.




The upper hull casement is pretty huge. I wish I had angled the sides and had it about a cm lower that it is. To break up the monotony of the open flat sides, I added a length of spare track to the front and grab handles to the sides.




And with that, basic assembly on the Assault Sherman is done. I then turned my attentions to the Assault Stuart.

Addressed assembly needed on the running gear.


I used my templates to make the styrene pieces.


Began assembling the upper casements plates, including the knockout and boxed out area for the gun mount. For the gun, I'm using the one from the old Italeri M24. I didn't take any pictures of it, but I cut the gun's mantlet narrower.




Gun placed in mount. I think it looks pretty sharp as an open-top vehicle. Maybe the next What-If will see a rebuild of my AFV M5A1 as an open-topper with the 76mm gun.


Anyway, that's it for now.



This rememberbe something...



cheers.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
ComradeMP
#0
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United States
Joined: July 31, 2011
KitMaker: 416 posts
Armorama: 397 posts
Posted: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 - 12:18 PM UTC
Well wouldn't you know it, I had to stall on the project because a vision came to me all of a sudden, and I just have to do it. So it looks like i'll have to undo what I've done so far and give it another go with my new concept. Possibility of a KV MK.I and MK.II deal type deal since I have one already started.

Really want to put an AA gun on the KV, though I've heard they weren't all that common on British tanks. Can't remember the name of the AA gun they did mount sometimes. I do have some aftermarket .50 cal's on hand too.

Have some British tank riders from mini art and Tamiya I plan to put on the finished tank.
Bluestab
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South Carolina, United States
Joined: December 03, 2009
KitMaker: 2,148 posts
Armorama: 1,905 posts
Posted: Wednesday, April 23, 2014 - 07:37 AM UTC
Update. I started back on the assault Stuart while waiting on dry-times for another project.

I mounted the main gun and added supports for the fighting compartment roof plate. I came very close to changing the 75mm gun out for a 6pdr. This is designed as a infantry support vehicle, not t try to slug it out with armor. I'm liking the idea of an open-top Stuart based SPG armed with a 6pdr or a 76mm gun. Maybe for What-If 5.

I positioned the gun forward a bit more than I had planned to give the crew a bit more room. Even with the change, it's basically just a 3-man crew.


Roof plate. I originally wanted the commander's hatch to be on the other side, but the main gun...and the recoil...would be an issue. I had moved the gun forward a bit to allow the a crew to use the loader's hatch.


Roof on. Clamped the sides. I'll do the same to the rear after the sides set so the seam is tight. The gap on the front will be addressed by a piece of trim.


Speaking f hatches...I added the loader's hatch. I went back and forth on whether to use a one or two piece hatch. By the way, the commander's hatch was a spare taken from the CH T34-85 kit. That sprue was originally part of the old Dragon Pershing kit.


Anyway, that's where I am at the moment.
Bluestab
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South Carolina, United States
Joined: December 03, 2009
KitMaker: 2,148 posts
Armorama: 1,905 posts
Posted: Friday, April 25, 2014 - 05:09 AM UTC
More updates..

I added the cover strip for the gaps on the casement front. I added edges to the main gun cut-out.


I think the vehicle looks dumpy and short. I added a hedgerow cutter to the front. I also added some tow brackets above the cutter and the lifting hooks.


Added lights and repositioned them above the fenders to get them out of the way of the planned driver's hatch/vision port. Add a strip of styrene to help break up the plainness of the front.


And here I am basically done with the assembly. I had more pictures but they were pretty blurry. Most of it was shots of the rear. Most of that was oob assembly.
I took these pictures this morning. You can see a lot of the detail.
The driver's hatch/view port really didn't show up well. I used styrene and added a modified periscope to it.
I'm leaving the side skirts as-is. I played with a few designs but in the end, the stock ones work. I added grab handles because the interior would be so cramped. Add ventilator.










I need to do a bit of cleanup, primer it, and get the base coat down. Then I'll add the stowage, tools, etc.
Nito74
Staff MemberCampaigns Administrator
ARMORAMA
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Lisboa, Portugal
Joined: March 04, 2008
KitMaker: 5,378 posts
Armorama: 4,721 posts
Posted: Saturday, April 26, 2014 - 12:00 PM UTC
Today I got one of the kits from storage that I'll use for this one, I'll try to build a mixed tank, Leopard 2 Hull + T-55 turret.

I still have a lot on my bench but I might start it in May..

WyattClark
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Colorado, United States
Joined: December 12, 2013
KitMaker: 37 posts
Armorama: 35 posts
Posted: Sunday, April 27, 2014 - 01:31 AM UTC
Hey guys I've got a starting picture of my build. I'll be building the Amusing Hobby Panzer VII Lowe.
SGTJKJ
#041
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Kobenhavn, Denmark
Joined: July 20, 2006
KitMaker: 9,731 posts
Armorama: 4,576 posts
Posted: Wednesday, April 30, 2014 - 08:04 AM UTC
This sounds great! I am in.

Since Sci Fi is allowed to some extent I will enter with the AA tank of the year 40,000.

Hydra AA tank

Starter picture to follow shortly.
corsair924
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New Hampshire, United States
Joined: August 11, 2008
KitMaker: 393 posts
Armorama: 319 posts
Posted: Wednesday, April 30, 2014 - 10:26 AM UTC
Emanuel,
about that green, ah, white, ah tank, ah, THING!
What are you doing Psychological warfare?
Gives me a headache just looking at it. . .
35th-scale
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Kildare, Ireland
Joined: November 21, 2007
KitMaker: 3,212 posts
Armorama: 2,807 posts
Posted: Wednesday, April 30, 2014 - 08:33 PM UTC
Some great ideas & builds goiong on here...

Question: would a German Fennek, with Live Resin SAG gun tub & M134 mini-gun, in Israeli colours & markings, count for this campaign?
hofpig
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England - South East, United Kingdom
Joined: March 04, 2007
KitMaker: 1,328 posts
Armorama: 1,016 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 01, 2014 - 01:51 AM UTC
Hi I was thinking of joining this one with a Churchill tank hunter, a sort of Jagdchurchill. The thing is I have a partly built Tamiya Churchill. The lower hull except a few details is built and I don't know if you would accept it?

There would be a bit of scratchbuilding for both the armoured housing for the gun (either a 32 pdr or a 20 pdr of a centurion?) and possible re-positioning of the exhausts. Would this be acceptable?

Paul