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Armor/AFV: What If?
For those who like to build hypothetical or alternate history versions of armor/AFVs.
Hosted by Darren Baker
Kpz 70 120mm
hugohuertas
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Buenos Aires, Argentina
Joined: January 26, 2007
KitMaker: 1,024 posts
Armorama: 1,013 posts
Posted: Thursday, August 21, 2014 - 01:58 AM UTC
OK, after trying to picture out what should happen if the Kpz 70 did not end as it did, and was actually adopted as the MBT for the Bundeswehr until the appeareance of the Leopard 2, I finally started modifying Dragon's recent kit.

So I decided to place the Rheinmetall L44 120mm gun, not the one available at the time when the prototypes were built, but I assumed it could be adopted later after the initial batches of series vehicles.
That made me choose a more bulky gun mantlet and turret front so to accomodate the gun trunnions without troubles. There came handy the gun mantlet of a Revell Leopard 1A1, and the L44 gun from a Hobby Boss Leopard 2A4.

I eliminated the sight for the 152mm missile -on the left side of the turret- and the kits crew cuppolas, and replaced them with the Leopard 1A1 ones.
Also added the Leopard 1A1 side skirts.

Still far from the end of the Project, and lots of work to do.
Have to add a lot of welding lines, tools, 20mm autocannon stuff and details, periscopes, mudguards and so on.
I'll add also a close support MG on the commanders hatch.
Have to figure out what kind of mesh I will use over the engine deck grills, also...

Well that's enough talking, some pics of the work so far.
Any comments and suggestions will be greatly appreciated

IMG_8922 by hugohuertas, on Flickr

IMG_8919 by hugohuertas, on Flickr

IMG_8915 by hugohuertas, on Flickr

IMG_8913 by hugohuertas, on Flickr

IMG_8906 by hugohuertas, on Flickr

IMG_8905 by hugohuertas, on Flickr

IMG_8904 by hugohuertas, on Flickr

IMG_20140820_203026643 by hugohuertas, on Flickr

IMG_8931 by hugohuertas, on Flickr

IMG_8926 by hugohuertas, on Flickr

IMG_8923 by hugohuertas, on Flickr

IMG_8921 by hugohuertas, on Flickr

mmeier
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Nordrhein-Westfalen, Germany
Joined: October 22, 2008
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Posted: Thursday, August 21, 2014 - 04:09 AM UTC
Nice idea/concept

Since we are talking about a late 1960s/early 70s tank:

Wouldn't the 20mm of a series model be the Rh202 as used in the (then brand new) Marder IFV?
hugohuertas
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Buenos Aires, Argentina
Joined: January 26, 2007
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Posted: Thursday, August 21, 2014 - 04:30 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Nice idea/concept

Since we are talking about a late 1960s/early 70s tank:

Wouldn't the 20mm of a series model be the Rh202 as used in the (then brand new) Marder IFV?



That's a good call.
I'll take it into consideration. Have to search for the gun barrel in one of my old Revell Marder kits, or I may look for one of the RB barrels -if I recall right-
I thank any other suggestions or advice, still far from finishing this project
Grindcore
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New York, United States
Joined: September 23, 2006
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Posted: Thursday, August 21, 2014 - 04:47 AM UTC

Cool idea, should end up looking great. The RB Marder barrel is pretty cheap and would be a definite upgrade.
salt6
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Oklahoma, United States
Joined: February 17, 2002
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Posted: Wednesday, August 27, 2014 - 11:59 AM UTC
I've been collecting bits to do the same thing. Except it'll be a US version.
tanknick22
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Posted: Wednesday, August 27, 2014 - 12:10 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Cool idea, should end up looking great. The RB Marder barrel is pretty cheap and would be a definite upgrade.



Can't wait to see the US version of this what if build , you going with the 152mm gun or a 105mm or 120mm?
Chuck4
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Posted: Wednesday, August 27, 2014 - 02:01 PM UTC
Let me point out a little problem, hopefully it is not too late to fix it.

You replaced the driver's hatch and copula on top of the turret with what looks like a standard issue german Leopard loader hatch. That can't work. The driver's hatch on the KPz 70 is special. Not only does it have the vision blocks the driver needs in order to see where he is going, the whole thing is arranged to turn when the turret turns so no matter which way the turret is pointed, the driver's hatch and their vision blocks are always pointed to the front of the tank.

I think the way you have it now, the driver can't see out the tank.
hugohuertas
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Buenos Aires, Argentina
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Posted: Wednesday, August 27, 2014 - 03:14 PM UTC
Thanks for your advice
But I know that, and if you take again a look at the pics, you'll see a round base under the "Leopard-ish" hatch (in white plastic).
That round part should be the top of the driver's position, rotating as the original cuppola did. So even with this configuration the driver's position keeps pointing to the front of the vehicle...

Tha only thing I'm considering to do different to the Leopard hatches is the "front" periscope, since I think it should be wider tan the rest to allow a better forward view.

Anyway, feel free to keep pointing out this kind of stuff, its very helpful to avoid unnoticed mistakes.
Removed by original poster on 08/28/14 - 04:14:27 (GMT).
HermannB
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Bayern, Germany
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Posted: Thursday, August 28, 2014 - 03:41 AM UTC
Hi Hugo, when getting on turned barrel, why not replaceing the 120mm barrel with one from RP Model?
hugohuertas
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Buenos Aires, Argentina
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Posted: Friday, August 29, 2014 - 12:09 AM UTC
Hi Hsns Herrmann!

I already have a RB barrel for Leopard 2A4, but not so sure about using it in this project.
I'll wait to see my final result with the Hobby Boss one, and then decide... until paint stage I have time to make this kind of changes.
The project entered in a low pace period now, lots of details to evaluate and decide
salt6
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Oklahoma, United States
Joined: February 17, 2002
KitMaker: 777 posts
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Posted: Friday, August 29, 2014 - 01:30 AM UTC
What are your thoughts on the skirts and the kneeling of the hull? How are you planning to ensure there is enough clearance when fully hull down?


Steve
hugohuertas
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Buenos Aires, Argentina
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Posted: Friday, August 29, 2014 - 03:34 AM UTC
Yes, if you take a look at the second pic, you'll notice that there will be enough clearance since the skirts' lower parts are above the line of the hull bottom.
And its obvious that even at the extreme lower position of the suspension there is no way for the vehicle to go down further the bottom of the hull
LeoCmdr
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Alberta, Canada
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Posted: Friday, August 29, 2014 - 05:32 AM UTC
I like your concept and the modifications.

How would the driver's hatch open? You've used a Leopard commander's hatch that is designed to raised and pivot 180 degrees to the open position. It would be impossible to open and secure the hatch as is unless the entire hatch was spun towards the centre of the turret each time. That would be a very impractical design.

It would make more sense if you used the hinged Leopard loader's hatch and mounted it so it opened at a forward angle. This is realistic and actually a feature found on the very modern Leopard 2A7+ due to the Remote Weapon System mounted behind the loader's hatch.
hugohuertas
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Buenos Aires, Argentina
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Posted: Friday, August 29, 2014 - 06:52 AM UTC
You are right Jason, thanks for the heads up!

I mismatched the loader's hatch with the commander one...
Have to fix that.
The original idea was as you suggest, but I've mistaken the hatch.
LeoCmdr
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Alberta, Canada
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Posted: Friday, August 29, 2014 - 03:02 PM UTC
I am sure you'll make it look great.

On a side note Voyager Model has already released a detail set for the kit...PE, brass parts, and a metal gun barrel. It does not correct faults in the kit but it does enhance the existing details.
hugohuertas
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Buenos Aires, Argentina
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Posted: Saturday, August 30, 2014 - 06:39 AM UTC
For those who want to build one of the "real" Kpz 70 prototypes, getting an AM metal gun barrel is a MUST.
The kit one is just horrible.

RB one looks good, but I cannot talk about its accuracy.
LeoCmdr
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Alberta, Canada
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Posted: Monday, March 02, 2015 - 10:38 AM UTC
Any updates on this project?
M4A1Sherman
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New York, United States
Joined: May 02, 2013
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Posted: Monday, March 02, 2015 - 01:28 PM UTC

Quoted Text

I've been collecting bits to do the same thing. Except it'll be a US version.



How come no US version? Aside of that, I'm not very impressed with BLACK LABEL, except for their SECOND M48, #3546 US M48A3, and possibly their up-coming #3559 M48A1... Some of the guys on this site are already posting gripes about #3559, and THAT KIT HASN'T EVEN HIT THE MARKET YET!!!

BLACK LABEL seems to revel in their mistakes. I WISH DRAGON would let the guys that work on their WWII German stuff work on the BLACK PLAGUE kits...
Bravo1102
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New Jersey, United States
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Posted: Monday, April 24, 2017 - 04:17 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

I've been collecting bits to do the same thing. Except it'll be a US version.





BLACK LABEL seems to revel in their mistakes. I WISH DRAGON would let the guys that work on their WWII German stuff work on the BLACK PLAGUE kits...



You mean like the GERMAN Marder II that has mis-matched parts from every Panzer II kit they ever did in one box and nonsensical cut and paste directions? Or the Marder III ausf H where everything is just slightly out of place even compared to the ancient Italeri one? Looks like the guys who did those kits graduated to doing Black Death kits.
SWATdoc
#503
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Texas, United States
Joined: June 29, 2006
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Posted: Monday, April 24, 2017 - 09:52 AM UTC
Hello Hugo,

I like your model. With the side skirts, it reminds me of how the American XM803 was proposed to look like.

Respectfully,
Allen
hugohuertas
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Buenos Aires, Argentina
Joined: January 26, 2007
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Posted: Tuesday, April 25, 2017 - 02:16 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Hello Hugo,

I like your model. With the side skirts, it reminds me of how the American XM803 was proposed to look like.

Respectfully,
Allen



Thanks Allen!
I expect to go back to this project during May, if I manage to get some free-time for modeling.