login   |    register
Armor/AFV
For discussions on tanks, artillery, jeeps, etc.
German Panzer Dark Yellow (dunkelgelb)
jrutman
Visit this Community
Pennsylvania, United States
Joined: April 10, 2011
KitMaker: 7,436 posts
Armorama: 7,430 posts
Posted: Thursday, October 02, 2014 - 05:16 AM UTC
I have this box I picked up in Germany about 35 years ago. I believe it is army issue and of course is for hand washing brushes and soap.
The main interest for me is this possibly the real color for dunkelgelb? It matches some other pieces from that era that I have seen. Or was the paint color on small equipment different than that used on vehicles?
I took a snap in sunlight and shade for better ref.





165thspc
#0
Visit this Community
Kentucky, United States
Joined: April 13, 2011
KitMaker: 9,095 posts
Armorama: 8,346 posts
Posted: Thursday, October 02, 2014 - 07:42 AM UTC
Almost every manufacture mixed their own version of this paint color based on the published German government "official" formula. Therefore no two manufactures' paint colors matched exactly.

The Patton Museum did a full body off restoration of their 251/8 and when the floor plates were removed none of the paint under the floor exactly matched. Different parts coming from different sub-contractors (fuel tank, air tank, etc.) all had slightly different shades of paint.

Unless the color balance is seriously off on your photos (and I don't think it is.) I would say the piece you have there is way too grey to be the correct shade.
Headhunter506
Visit this Community
New York, United States
Joined: December 01, 2007
KitMaker: 1,528 posts
Armorama: 1,463 posts
Posted: Thursday, October 02, 2014 - 08:25 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Almost every manufacture mixed their own version of this paint color based on the published German government "official" formula. Therefore no two manufactures' paint colors matched exactly.

The Patton Museum did a full body off restoration of their 251/8 and when the floor plates were removed none of the paint under the floor exactly matched. Different parts coming from different sub-contractors (fuel tank, air tank, etc.) all had slightly different shades of paint.

Unless the color balance is seriously off on your photos (and I don't think it is.) I would say the piece you have there is way too grey to be the correct shade.



Dunkelgelb comes in a variety of hues, from the dark mustard yellow of Dunkelgelb nach Muster to a shade which is decidedly grayer than RAL 7027. Check out the color of the satchel on this BMW R75:



Your soap box looks pretty darn close, colorwise.
165thspc
#0
Visit this Community
Kentucky, United States
Joined: April 13, 2011
KitMaker: 9,095 posts
Armorama: 8,346 posts
Posted: Thursday, October 02, 2014 - 08:33 AM UTC
I hope this helps but just remember that various camera/flash/computer combinations will alter colors at least slightly.

Cross member right behind the engine. (Engine removed)
165thspc
#0
Visit this Community
Kentucky, United States
Joined: April 13, 2011
KitMaker: 9,095 posts
Armorama: 8,346 posts
Posted: Thursday, October 02, 2014 - 08:37 AM UTC
This is the best example I can offer of different items in the vehicle having slightly different shades of paint, in this case the brake cylinder (I think it is a brake cylinder) versus the frame color.

easyco69
Visit this Community
Ontario, Canada
Joined: November 03, 2012
KitMaker: 2,275 posts
Armorama: 2,233 posts
Posted: Thursday, October 02, 2014 - 08:51 AM UTC
I paint my tanks in black primer, I then thin the sh*t out of Tamiya Dark yellow..over several coats of very thin paint it becomes a great looking dunkelgeld.
165thspc
#0
Visit this Community
Kentucky, United States
Joined: April 13, 2011
KitMaker: 9,095 posts
Armorama: 8,346 posts
Posted: Thursday, October 02, 2014 - 08:52 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Dunkelgelb comes in a variety of hues, from the dark mustard yellow of Dunkelgelb nach Muster to a shade which is decidedly grayer than RAL 7027. Check out the color of the satchel on this BMW R75:



Joseph I think you just further proved my point; the saddlebag/box on your motorcycle is a different shade than the paint used on the rest of the bike. (Different sub-contractor supplied the saddlebag.)

However, none of the examples shown here are a match for the gentleman's soapbox.

I am NOT saying that you're not right but can you offer a photographic sample of this much more grey Dunkelgelb to compare to the soapbox?

And that is why, down through the years, there has been so much discussion of the "correct" shade of Dunkelgelb on these and other websites.
165thspc
#0
Visit this Community
Kentucky, United States
Joined: April 13, 2011
KitMaker: 9,095 posts
Armorama: 8,346 posts
Posted: Thursday, October 02, 2014 - 09:22 AM UTC
Very late war 251 engine (NOT part of the Patton vehicle.)


Shot with available light above.


Shot with flash below.
jrutman
Visit this Community
Pennsylvania, United States
Joined: April 10, 2011
KitMaker: 7,436 posts
Armorama: 7,430 posts
Posted: Thursday, October 02, 2014 - 03:24 PM UTC
I do see a lot of disparate colors going on there with the different components. One thing is for sure,most paints offered by manufacturers are way too green in my opinion.
These are all awesome pics btw,and very useful. Thanks for posting them all.
J
GeraldOwens
Visit this Community
Florida, United States
Joined: March 30, 2006
KitMaker: 3,583 posts
Armorama: 3,544 posts
Posted: Thursday, October 02, 2014 - 04:58 PM UTC

Quoted Text

I do see a lot of disparate colors going on there with the different components. One thing is for sure,most paints offered by manufacturers are way too green in my opinion.
These are all awesome pics btw,and very useful. Thanks for posting them all.
J



Tomas Chory's book on German paint offered four different chips for Dunkelgelb, two of which were greenish. I suspect the model paint makers and the German wartime manufacturers faced the same problem. It probably came down to what pigment was used to darken the yellow ochre. If it contained any blue tones, it would kick the subsequent mix toward green when mixed with the yellow (and if you want to kill the green in a bottle of Dunkelgelb, just add a drop or two of red).
I believe the intended color for RAL 7028 was a slightly yellowish tan color. Personally, I've always liked that old standby of model builders of yore, Floquil Mud, to depict Dunkelgelb.
Hohenstaufen
Visit this Community
England - South East, United Kingdom
Joined: December 13, 2004
KitMaker: 2,087 posts
Armorama: 1,521 posts
Posted: Thursday, October 02, 2014 - 11:00 PM UTC
Thanks for the photos guys, this post is of great interest to me given my usual subjects.
However, I have got to say that it raises as many questions as it answers! Firstly, is Jerry's box of WW2 provenance? I don't know. The pictures of the engine are great, but as Jerry says there are a lot of disparate colours here, add lighting effects, and it could prove anything. Likewise is the paint on the bike original? It looks like it could be, but anything can happen in 70 years. Also paint will fade with age, so what we are seeing now, could bear no relevance to the original colour. I've seen original colour pictures of German equipment that makes "Dark Yellow" look almost like off-white, but the colour integrity of the old film is suspect here. Most restorers, including the Tank Museum at Bovingdon, who did meticulous research for their Tiger 1, paint their vehicles in a much "stronger" colour.
I think all this proves that "no one is wrong", and confirms that Dunkelgelb is something different to everyone.
jrutman
Visit this Community
Pennsylvania, United States
Joined: April 10, 2011
KitMaker: 7,436 posts
Armorama: 7,430 posts
Posted: Friday, October 03, 2014 - 02:02 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

I do see a lot of disparate colors going on there with the different components. One thing is for sure,most paints offered by manufacturers are way too green in my opinion.
These are all awesome pics btw,and very useful. Thanks for posting them all.
J



Tomas Chory's book on German paint offered four different chips for Dunkelgelb, two of which were greenish. I suspect the model paint makers and the German wartime manufacturers faced the same problem. It probably came down to what pigment was used to darken the yellow ochre. If it contained any blue tones, it would kick the subsequent mix toward green when mixed with the yellow (and if you want to kill the green in a bottle of Dunkelgelb, just add a drop or two of red).
I believe the intended color for RAL 7028 was a slightly yellowish tan color. Personally, I've always liked that old standby of model builders of yore, Floquil Mud, to depict Dunkelgelb.



Yup! I used to use the old floquil colors a lot and my german vehicles always looked a lot more "tanish" than the other guys.
This all comes down to what has been said. There are all kinds of shades that are "correct"
J
jrutman
Visit this Community
Pennsylvania, United States
Joined: April 10, 2011
KitMaker: 7,436 posts
Armorama: 7,430 posts
Posted: Friday, October 03, 2014 - 02:03 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Thanks for the photos guys, this post is of great interest to me given my usual subjects.
However, I have got to say that it raises as many questions as it answers! Firstly, is Jerry's box of WW2 provenance? I don't know. The pictures of the engine are great, but as Jerry says there are a lot of disparate colours here, add lighting effects, and it could prove anything. Likewise is the paint on the bike original? It looks like it could be, but anything can happen in 70 years. Also paint will fade with age, so what we are seeing now, could bear no relevance to the original colour. I've seen original colour pictures of German equipment that makes "Dark Yellow" look almost like off-white, but the colour integrity of the old film is suspect here. Most restorers, including the Tank Museum at Bovingdon, who did meticulous research for their Tiger 1, paint their vehicles in a much "stronger" colour.
I think all this proves that "no one is wrong", and confirms that Dunkelgelb is something different to everyone.



Couldn't agree more about your assessment. I too,would love to know if my box was from the Drittes Reich.
J
jrutman
Visit this Community
Pennsylvania, United States
Joined: April 10, 2011
KitMaker: 7,436 posts
Armorama: 7,430 posts
Posted: Friday, October 03, 2014 - 02:05 AM UTC
So I suppose saying one color of dark yellow is the correct color is like saying "so and so' was the best rock band.
All a point of subjection.
J
Biggles2
Visit this Community
Quebec, Canada
Joined: January 01, 2004
KitMaker: 7,160 posts
Armorama: 5,777 posts
Posted: Friday, October 03, 2014 - 02:32 AM UTC
So when brand "X" model paint company claims their paint is the only authentic Dunklegelb, all the paint manufacturers can make the same claim.
RobinNilsson
Staff MemberTOS Moderator
KITMAKER NETWORK
Visit this Community
Stockholm, Sweden
Joined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 5,517 posts
Armorama: 4,662 posts
Posted: Friday, October 03, 2014 - 03:07 AM UTC
Xtracolor have/had Dunkelgelb (X805) and Afrika Korps Sand grey (X809).

In this discussion the X809 is promoted as the best match
for Dunkelgelb
http://worldwartwozone.com/forums/index.php?/topic/15952-panzer-colours-via-david-byrden/
but who knows ....

I use a mix of four parts Humbrol 72 and one part Humbrol 63 (or was it Humbrol 83 ??).
Sort of grey-yellow-tan-ish Rahter similar to the images above ...
/ Robin
SdAufKla
Visit this Community
South Carolina, United States
Joined: May 07, 2010
KitMaker: 2,231 posts
Armorama: 2,151 posts
Posted: Friday, October 03, 2014 - 03:31 AM UTC
Like hand grenades and atom bombs - close enough is good enough with colors. Once adjusted for scale lighting and influenced by weathering, there is no such thing as a perfect color match on a scale model, only varying degrees of "close enough."

No two dark yellow items in my militaria collection are the same shade. The same applies to all the other hard items painted olive green or dark gray, or any of the Bakelite items (except for the solid black ones) - no two items manufactured in the "same" color are actually the exact same color. This even varies on the same equipment item where, for example, buckles and clips can be in different shades.

In fact, this also applies to all of the German uniform items I have - No two are the exact same shade of field gray, khaki or tan, and even the camouflaged shelter quarters are all different colors. It's clear from close examination that although some of this difference is from wear and fading, the base-line differences were in the "as manufactured" original colors.

It's no surprise that original dark yellow vehicles and parts are all in slightly different shades.

Although I think it's an academically interesting discussion, when it comes down to what's actually painted on a model, I think that guys who agonize over a "perfect" color match are looking for the impossible.
Headhunter506
Visit this Community
New York, United States
Joined: December 01, 2007
KitMaker: 1,528 posts
Armorama: 1,463 posts
Posted: Friday, October 03, 2014 - 03:53 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Thanks for the photos guys, this post is of great interest to me given my usual subjects.
However, I have got to say that it raises as many questions as it answers! Firstly, is Jerry's box of WW2 provenance? I don't know. The pictures of the engine are great, but as Jerry says there are a lot of disparate colours here, add lighting effects, and it could prove anything. Likewise is the paint on the bike original? It looks like it could be, but anything can happen in 70 years. Also paint will fade with age, so what we are seeing now, could bear no relevance to the original colour. I've seen original colour pictures of German equipment that makes "Dark Yellow" look almost like off-white, but the colour integrity of the old film is suspect here. Most restorers, including the Tank Museum at Bovingdon, who did meticulous research for their Tiger 1, paint their vehicles in a much "stronger" colour.
I think all this proves that "no one is wrong", and confirms that Dunkelgelb is something different to everyone.



I took the liberty of color correcting Jerry's photo to a daylight balance. Here's the corrected image:



The color looks like RAL 7027 Grau, the remaining stocks of which, according Chory, were remixed to make RAL 7028 Dunkelgelb. It was postulated that the color of the box was RLM 02. That wouldn't be the case. RLM 02 is the same as RAL 7003; and, it is a dark greenish gray, not the obviously tan color seen in the photos.

The photo of the bike is from Chory's book, Camouflage Colors, Wehrmacht Heer, 1939-1945 (p.58) and the paint is original. There is a photo on p.55 of a different motorcycle saddle bag painted in a very light, almost white, shade of Dunkelgelb. As Gerald pointed out, there are color chips for five (not four ) shades of Dunkelgelb. I couldn't locate the photos Michael asked for regarding the gray shade of Dunkelgelb; but, the second and third color chips provided in the book are exactly what I was describing.

As far as the reliability of determining colors from color film, the best and most reliable color images can be found in the Life Magazine galleries. Why? Because Life photographers used Kodachrome film, which used a more stable dye process than the Agfacolor film used by German Kriegberichters. This means, if the slides were properly stored (which they were), there would be almost no deterioration in the color fidelity. So, if you are looking at a Life Magazine color photo of Tiger Is at Hunt's Gap, you are seeing the actual colors of the vehicles.
bill_c
Staff MemberCampaigns Administrator
MODEL SHIPWRIGHTS
Visit this Community
New Jersey, United States
Joined: January 09, 2008
KitMaker: 10,420 posts
Armorama: 8,002 posts
Posted: Friday, October 03, 2014 - 04:00 AM UTC
Gents, remember ONE THING: the German means "dark YELLOW."

Paints that are almost totally gray are IMO either totally faded or another color entirely. DG is a 1943+ standard. Prior to that, there were other "sand" colors. Since we don't know in many cases when a particular relic was painted (or repainted, including since the war), I would be hesitant to make any judgement based on even the few surviving examples we have.

Your mileage may vary.
Headhunter506
Visit this Community
New York, United States
Joined: December 01, 2007
KitMaker: 1,528 posts
Armorama: 1,463 posts
Posted: Friday, October 03, 2014 - 04:38 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I too,would love to know if my box was from the Drittes Reich.
J



Not for nothing, Jerry, but, have you considered the possibility that this box is NVA (East German) issue? The reason I ask is that I was in FRG at around the same time ('81-'85) you were and there was a lot of DDR stuff sold by militaria dealers which was passed off as gen-OO-wine Dub-Dub Two "antiques". It isn't much of a stretch that there was a lot of DDR gear floating around. I happened to notice one day that the typewriter in my arms room was made in DDR. Being inquisitive, in a lower primate way, I started looking at the data plates of typewriters in our orderly room, PAC office, Division Finance, 45th Ord. Co. in Merrell Barracks and just about every other place I happened to visit. All of them were East German-manufactured. Go figure.
Headhunter506
Visit this Community
New York, United States
Joined: December 01, 2007
KitMaker: 1,528 posts
Armorama: 1,463 posts
Posted: Friday, October 03, 2014 - 05:53 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Gents, remember ONE THING: the German means "dark YELLOW."

Paints that are almost totally gray are IMO either totally faded or another color entirely. DG is a 1943+ standard. Prior to that, there were other "sand" colors. Since we don't know in many cases when a particular relic was painted (or repainted, including since the war), I would be hesitant to make any judgement based on even the few surviving examples we have.

Your mileage may vary.



Dunkelgelb does translate to "dark yellow"; BUT, it's RAL code is what is important. Colors are grouped according to hue and given a number corresponding to a particular grouping:

1xxx - Yellow
2xxx - Orange
3xxx - Red
4xxx - Violet
5xxx - Blue
6xxx - Green
7xxx - Gray
8xxx - Brown
9xxx - White/Black

Dunkelgelb was assigned the code 7028, which places it in the group of gray hues. It doesn't matter if it looks yellow. If RAL sez it's gray, it's gray, see? Say, who are you to question Teutonic logic anyhow? You some kind of troublemaker or sumthin' to that effect? Keep it up and you can guarantee yourself a transfer to the Metropolitan Mobile Home Park in Moonachie, pal. On the bright side, you also receive a coupon for a complimentary Nova lox bagel



courtesy of Goldberg's Bagels, located on Rte. 17 S, in scenic Hasbrouck Heights. Back to you, Bill.
spoons
Visit this Community
England - East Anglia, United Kingdom
Joined: January 09, 2008
KitMaker: 527 posts
Armorama: 500 posts
Posted: Friday, October 03, 2014 - 08:06 AM UTC
Guys we also have to think about what was used to dilute the paint prior to spraying/brushing and the local temperature and what was used to dilute the paint Gasoline, petrol,oil or water? From factory there maybe a standard being kept to but I think in a war they may be too many variables to say this is the exact/correct/only Dunkelgelb to use. i once noticed work mates repainting a garage floor in patches using the same paint tin and once dry was noticeably different in colour. i have always had trouble spraying enamels in cold weather due to damp getting in to the air and shifting the colour.
Hohenstaufen
Visit this Community
England - South East, United Kingdom
Joined: December 13, 2004
KitMaker: 2,087 posts
Armorama: 1,521 posts
Posted: Friday, October 03, 2014 - 10:01 PM UTC
Question for Joseph - is "Dunkelgelb" even an original wartime German term, or does it belong with "Hanomag", "FAMO", "pea pattern" and "palm tree" as post war appellations that have achieved acceptance through continued application?
We all know what we think it means, but I think we all think of something different! I seem to recall that Tamiya used to provide a "recipe" in their old kit instructions, before we got into the pre-mixed era. It involved yellow, white and black in different amounts, I forget the exact amounts (I could look it up if anyone is really interested),the result did not include any of the "tan" element most pre-mixed colours have now. Interesting to think they might have been more right then than now...
1stjaeger
Visit this Community
Wien, Austria
Joined: May 20, 2011
KitMaker: 1,744 posts
Armorama: 1,727 posts
Posted: Friday, October 03, 2014 - 10:25 PM UTC

Gentlemen,

apart from the well known difficulties of "nailing" colours in general, we are speaking about a wartime issued colour with shortages appearing already here and there in 1943.

Nevertheless, I have this site that seems quite serious (sorry only in german), and they give RAL 7028 a greyish tone! Have a look:

http://www.militaerlacke.de/lack/1kkunstharzlacke/wehrmacht/ral7028dunkelgelb.php

Cheers

Romain

jrutman
Visit this Community
Pennsylvania, United States
Joined: April 10, 2011
KitMaker: 7,436 posts
Armorama: 7,430 posts
Posted: Saturday, October 04, 2014 - 02:40 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Gentlemen,

apart from the well known difficulties of "nailing" colours in general, we are speaking about a wartime issued colour with shortages appearing already here and there in 1943.

Nevertheless, I have this site that seems quite serious (sorry only in german), and they give RAL 7028 a greyish tone! Have a look:

http://www.militaerlacke.de/lack/1kkunstharzlacke/wehrmacht/ral7028dunkelgelb.php

Cheers

Romain





Thanks for that helpful limk Romain!
There has been a long held view by many that the later war dark yellow was decidedly more tan and grey in color and this site seems to support that quite clearly.
J