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Ode to Rivet Counters
SgtRam
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#197
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Posted: Friday, March 20, 2015 - 06:23 AM UTC
Been looking at some of the negative posts that some of our "friendly rivet counter" members like to post concerning model kit releases and decided to look at it from a business perspective.

From a little research I have discovered that to engineer a model kit it cost somewhere around $250,000 and takes about a years worth of work. And to just recover that cost, the company would need to sell approximately 3500 kits. Now based on our "friendly rivet counters" we know that about 90% of the kits produced are wrong, therefore the time and money effort put into the kit are a waste.

Now if a company was started by our "friendly rivet counters" and it is say, called 100% Accurate Models.

1. To ensure that every rivet is with in a scale 1/1000th of a inch in the correct location, my guess would be that the time effort would be approximately 2 years, if not more cause you will have to get two "friendly rivet counters" to agree.

2. To complete the research of the model and since most vehicles prior to 1960 may not have original and/or accurate technical drawings the "friendly rivet counters" will have to locate the 100% accurate vehicle. And we know that some museums vehicles are not 100% accurate as they may of have to source parts from other locations and/or just to get the vehicle together to display. Thus you may have to add more time to above.

3. To add to above, the "friendly rivet counter" engineers will also have to content with vehicles in the museums that may have been modified in the field and are not 100% accurate, then have a heated discussion as to what field modification is actually correct for the vehicle by trying to determine what the field engineer was thinking when he decided to weld that extra bar on the side of the vehicle just for the hell of it.

4. To be able to build the model kit produced by 100% Accurate Models the "friendly rivet counter" engineers will have to engineer the assembly correctly, because it is not a model, it is a 100% accurate replica of a vehicle.


So after 5 years of engineering work by the "friendly rivet counters", the model is released. To cover the cost of the engineering, research, etc they kit will be released at a cost of $700, and the "friendly rivet counters" will complain that the average model builder cannot put it together correctly, thus decide to not release the kit and fold the company.

After which they go back to the forums and complain about the next model released by a company that is trying to sell to the average modeler who just likes to build models.




KurtLaughlin
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Posted: Friday, March 20, 2015 - 06:38 AM UTC
There's a question I've asked of the people who hate rivet counters but have never gotten a response. Perhaps you would like to answer Kevin: Why are the "average modelers who just like to build models" so bothered by rivet counters? Why on earth do they care what they think?

KL
SgtRam
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Posted: Friday, March 20, 2015 - 07:11 AM UTC

Quoted Text

There's a question I've asked of the people who hate rivet counters but have never gotten a response. Perhaps you would like to answer Kevin: Why are the "average modelers who just like to build models" so bothered by rivet counters? Why on earth do they care what they think?

KL



Because the average "friendly rivet counter" has to comment how bad a model is when it is released, then state how wrong it is when the average modeler builds it.

I do know quite a few "friendly rivet counter", the majority are very nice people, who keep the rivet counting comments to themselves, unless asked. There are some "friendly rivet counter" that just like to speak up when not asked and ruin every bodies fun.

And one thing I noticed, the rivets counters with the largest mouths tend not to actually build models.

AFVFan
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Posted: Friday, March 20, 2015 - 07:21 AM UTC
Wouldn't this be more in place in the "Modeling in General" forum.
Cookiescool2
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Posted: Friday, March 20, 2015 - 07:26 AM UTC
The way I look at Rivet-Counters is that while you may not like them, or they may get irritating, they are still important to the hobby.

I completely agree that a model does not need to be an exact replica, but Rivet-Counters help keep Model Companies accountable for accuracy. For example, while the Dragon M103 looks and seems like the real thing, several areas were completely misshapen and just wrong. A difference of a few millimeters is not something that really even needs to be mentioned.

But without Rivet-Counters, companies could simply claim a model is completely accurate when it is misshapen and inaccurate. While they can be irritating when bashing a kit that is completely adequate for 95% of builders, without them, kits may be less accurate and representative of what they actually should be.
KurtLaughlin
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Posted: Friday, March 20, 2015 - 08:00 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Because the average "friendly rivet counter" has to comment how bad a model is when it is released, then state how wrong it is when the average modeler builds it.

. . . There are some "friendly rivet counter" that just like to speak up when not asked and ruin everybody's fun.



I'm looking at this from the context of the Internet and not personal interactions, but why would they care, in either case? If you like a kit and you had fun building it, what does it matter that someone else doesn't? Why would you even let your fun be ruined by some douchebag?

I enjoy researching and correcting the details on my models. The fact that others don't - or the fact that there are others that do - is not even a ripple in my subconscious (unless I feel like jabbering on some newsgroup).

People need to get a handle on what they give a [auto-censored] about, and what isn't worth it.

KL
accelr8
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Posted: Friday, March 20, 2015 - 08:10 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Been looking at some of the negative posts that some of our "friendly rivet counter" members like to post concerning model kit releases and decided to look at it from a business perspective.



Yes, let's look at it from a business perspective, shall we? If I'm a consistently good worker who succeeds in what work I am given, isn't it a fair expectation to think that i'll continue with that consistently good output? If i were to "phone it in" a few times here and there, would that not lower others' opinion of the quality of my work? Do they simply say "eh, it looks close enough." "The data might be wrong, but whatever"?

Personally, I find distasteful the way you wield the phrase "friendly rivet counter" like it's a slur. I didn't expect that from one with the title of Managing Editor. I think the atmosphere around these forums has become just a little hostile as of late regarding the "accuracy vs adequate similarity" arguments. Accuracy improves the breed. If kit manufacturers weren't pursuing perfection, Tamiya's early 70s offerings would still be state-of-the-art. Please accept my token .02 from a lifelong "friendly rivet counter".
mpeplinski
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Posted: Friday, March 20, 2015 - 08:18 AM UTC
I remember a gentleman on here that had the phrase"build what you like.and like what you build"Kind of sums it up for me,though I do like watching guys tweak the living crap out of a kit.It is what gives them pleasure.I'll do a bit of tweaking,adding aftermarket and such,but I won't even go near trying some of the work guys have shown on here.My hat is off to them,but that's not the way I roll. Do what ever it is that pleases you,it's a hobby.

Mike
SgtRam
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Posted: Friday, March 20, 2015 - 08:24 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Personally, I find distasteful the way you wield the phrase "friendly rivet counter" like it's a slur. I didn't expect that from one with the title of Managing Editor.



There is no intention of insult nor is it pointed at anyone in particular, just poking a little fun while trying to explain why it is next to impossible for a company to produce a 100% accurate replica.

CMOT
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Posted: Friday, March 20, 2015 - 08:47 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Because the average "friendly rivet counter" has to comment how bad a model is when it is released, then state how wrong it is when the average modeler builds it.

. . . There are some "friendly rivet counter" that just like to speak up when not asked and ruin everybody's fun.



I'm looking at this from the context of the Internet and not personal interactions, but why would they care, in either case? If you like a kit and you had fun building it, what does it matter that someone else doesn't? Why would you even let your fun be ruined by some douchebag?

I enjoy researching and correcting the details on my models. The fact that others don't - or the fact that there are others that do - is not even a ripple in my subconscious (unless I feel like jabbering on some newsgroup).

People need to get a handle on what they give a [auto-censored] about, and what isn't worth it.

KL



If I am honest Kurt: I don't care if someone knocks a model or even if it is the news and reviews of the model they knock. I do feel for the members who build a model and take the time to display it only to have someone knock the model, not for finish or weathering the modeller has done but because the model has weaknesses. I will say I can't blame just those considered 'rivet counters' for this though.
paintMixer
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Posted: Friday, March 20, 2015 - 09:31 AM UTC
The modeling world is big enough for the rivet counters, as well the non-rivet-counters!
All of us count.
Each! --has just as much fun.
The joy of wringing out the last bit of detail--from any model,
is commensurate unto the experience of bringing forth even the most simple of non detailed
builds; each according to his/her particular temperament, talents, etc.

I seldom count rivets, but will do everything to lengthen and fatten my barrel if it is too short;
as well shorten, and thin it (if necessary)---when too long.

Personally, I prefer models from the 50s---to early 70s---such as Renwal, and Monogram.
I am just about to start my third Monogram Panzer IV reissue!
At the most, I am going to make a slightly thicker barrel with a slightly larger muzzle brake.
The fact that the gun out of the box is a wee bit too thin--does not hinder me one iota from
relishing the modelling experience.

If someone told me I was wasting my time with these, so called--by some,
obsolete, inaccurate, and poorly detailed models,
I would be exceedingly amused rather than angered.

Model What Thou wilt.
dommy20
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Posted: Friday, March 20, 2015 - 11:20 AM UTC
Oh Lord, more complaints about rivet counters. It's bad enough every hack Facebook modeling group has been filled with "No Rivet Counters Allowed" nonsense, now it's spreading to this page? This is one of the places I like to come to because the members who participate care about what they're doing, or have a desire to improve! It's not rivet counting, its an attempt to pass on knowledge and help others. And people who are rude are not rivet counters, they're just rude.

Look, when a person posts pictures they're opening themselves up for responses. If you don't want criticism, put a disclaimer, "Warning: I Only Accept Compliments." Then you can feel nice and get a bunch of disingenuous atta-boys and good for yous, and you don't have to worry that your hatch is upside down or that you have Bundeswehr markings on a Panther.

Anyhow, as for the original post it's goofy and senseless with exaggerated assumptions obviously made to prove a point. I would retort that the rivet counters have already done all the research and already know all the answers, so the kits could go to tooling tomorrow, no additional research needed. After all, that's why they're rivet counters!
CMOT
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Posted: Friday, March 20, 2015 - 11:51 AM UTC
I have never removed anyone from the network for being classed as a rivet counter and nor would I. People are entitled to their opinions, even staff members. Kevin’s chain has obviously been rattled and he is letting off steam via a discussion.
jon_a_its
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Posted: Friday, March 20, 2015 - 01:09 PM UTC
Mild ironic Amusements here?

Please remember that even with smileys the 'tounge-in-cheek' doesn't always come across in written texts.

I do like to know, from the R-C's that a kit has issues, but I ignore the comments based just on seeing Mfr press releases, & look for informed comments based on evidence.

They do have a place, eg, Academys' M3 Grant, Bogies wrong, correction set made available by Mfr, later editions had the corrections included.
Or Bronco's Chaffee Corrected turret available.

What there shouldn't be a place for is nit-picking & slagging off someone's work because they have made a small error, there is a difference between constructive comments & flaming.

Examples:
HobbyBosses' 750 Gallon Tanker, doors wrong, lots of heat, little light on forums, & Knowing there was an issue, I bought the Kit Anyway, as I was interested in it!

Since I already had an Italeri Water Tanker, I did a side by side comparison of the parts as it hadn't been done, to inform others & allow them to make their choice.

Yes it would be better if the Mfr got it right, but we are modellers, we can fix things!
A: Use the Italeri cab
B: leave the HB doors OFF/open or paint a very contrasting colour to make it less obvious
C: HB have delayed the release of their SWB Tin-Top, haven't seen it yet, we have yet to see if they have corrected it. but it wouldn't stop me buying it if not.

There are also at least 2 Resin Tin-Top Jimmys/Chevvys available, but I haven't seen anyone compare them to HB or IT versions, so I can't comment on them.

Others may have a different accuracy attitude to a few MM here or there, but if you know, you get to choose.

Personally, I like to read when someone 'tweaks/corrects the 'heck' out of a kit...
It serves as inspiration/motivation/amusements, but I don't have the time/skill/inclination do do likewise, but I can admire those that do.

Repeat as needed: It's Only a Hobby....
HermannB
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Posted: Friday, March 20, 2015 - 01:19 PM UTC
Sometimes I wonder if these "friendly rivet counters" even seen the original vehicle that they speak of (or tear apart)?
bison126
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Posted: Friday, March 20, 2015 - 01:23 PM UTC
Well, the accuracy of a kit is not a question of rivet counting in my opinion. I can live with some missing rivets, bolts or any other details I can add myself but when the kit sells around 50-60 USD and comes with a wrong shape or/and wrong dimensions that bothers me more.

Sometimes I build ala rivet counter when I have the sufficient documentation to do so. However, I'm happy with OOTB kits too. This is a hobby and pleasure is the key in it. If you dont't have fun with your kit whatever the category you are in it is a waste if time. And it's everyone's choice to go in one category or another. I think there is room enough for everybody.

The problem with some rivet counters is they can be condescending with "average" modelers. Most of them are nice guys from whom I learnt a lot here and in other sites.

My 2 cents
Olivier
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Posted: Friday, March 20, 2015 - 02:41 PM UTC
There is a place for the rivet counters to keep the model producers from pushing junk. Had said that, I left another site but cause "rivet expert" told me my photos of the M-1114's that I was on in Iraq were wrong. The modifications we did could not have been done. So there is a good and bad side of the counters.
PanzerKarl
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Posted: Friday, March 20, 2015 - 03:26 PM UTC
I'll leave the rivet counting to the experts
KurtLaughlin
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Posted: Friday, March 20, 2015 - 03:36 PM UTC
I'll be quick as I'm about to run off to a model show (Which counts as modeling!! ) but it looks like people don't have a problem with rivet counters, per se, but are conflating the RCs with other classic posting stereotypes. I think the real issue is that nobody likes as$holes.

KL
ChrisDM
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Posted: Friday, March 20, 2015 - 04:24 PM UTC

Quoted Text

If I am honest Kurt: I don't care if someone knocks a model or even if it is the news and reviews of the model they knock. I do feel for the members who build a model and take the time to display it only to have someone knock the model, not for finish or weathering the modeller has done but because the model has weaknesses. I will say I can't blame just those considered 'rivet counters' for this though.



the thread was about people who knock releases and reviews though Darren
ChrisDM
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Posted: Friday, March 20, 2015 - 04:29 PM UTC
Kurt, I think you've hit a whole bag of nails on their head here


Quoted Text

There is no intention of insult nor is it pointed at anyone in particular, just poking a little fun while trying to explain why it is next to impossible for a company to produce a 100% accurate replica.



Kevin, it was a pretty specific attack on people that express anything other than a positive opinion on kit news or reviews. I find that somewhat worrying to say the least.

People are not allowed to express negative views on the accuracy of a kit without the managing editor posting a thread about how stupid they are

especially a long four point demolition

us 'Rivet Counters' (That phrase sticks in my throat, I've never called someone an 'assembler') do not expect 100% fidelity in scale. we DO expect a kit to be accurate within the realms of possibility

an example is the feedback I gave on the numerous very avoidable errors on the DML churchills on a review on this site. I was torn up for daring to do so.
trakpin
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Posted: Friday, March 20, 2015 - 04:33 PM UTC
not a rivet counter, but shouldn't there be a CERtain amount of accuracy when molding a kit, let alone building one?. look at the disappointment in dragon's M103, and yet the release of their AIM/SEP are MORE accurate
ChrisDM
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Posted: Friday, March 20, 2015 - 05:54 PM UTC
anyone remember the issues with the turret roof of teh Bronco Chaffee? It was 'rivet counters' pointing out the errors on that part that lead to Bronco releasing a correction.

Kudos to Bronco for not going the usual route and ignoring it, but kudos too to those that gave a hoot and pointed out the problems
hugohuertas
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Posted: Friday, March 20, 2015 - 06:23 PM UTC
I was not going to post anything further in this site, but what the heck...
I'll avoid any emoticons because what I write is plainly what I want to mean, even if english is not my natural language.

If I keep visiting this place is just and only to see other people's great work, or the posts of some friends I made through the internet, and some really useful reviews and comments about new -and not so new- releases before spending my own bucks on a given kit.

But if I left adding other comments, replies or advice here, is because I cannot care less about opinions -them being from an editor or another fellow modeler- , since I only invest my time in the opinions of the people I respect and actually care about -it sounded like a circular thinking, doesn't it?- and in the well proven knowledge of experts in a given subject.
So, if -f.e.- Mr. Pawel points out something about a M1A"whatever" Abrams kit, or Mr. Byrden does something alike about a Tiger I, I read, listen and take notes about their comments.
Why banning them for being experts and be generous with their knowledge, or banning the people who cares about it? Let me see if I got it straight : because this should be a "be happy with anything you get" people only place?

Almost all of us are aware that there's room for everybody in this hobby, as is in any other aspect of life, but I cannot help thinking that if this site becomes just an online magazine about new releases and a "herren club" where the only accepted conduct is to congratulate everyone because he just finished a model, being it great or so-so, the place will loose a huge number of visitors...
So, if one of the reasonable aims is on the "financial aid" of advertisers -just for not calling them the same manufacturers we seem to be supposed not to criticize ever-it does not seem the best managing strategy, at least not the one that may be expected from such "experts" in how to drive an enterprise as the initial post suggests we may find here...

On the other hand, its still interesting -even knowing quite well the human nature at my more tan fifties- how some people can contradict themselves without hesitating from one trend/topic to another.
The same guys we found looking anxious for pictures of a given vehicle/unit, and/or cry out loud about right cammos, uniforms, gear or unit badges, don't hesitate in this post to criticize other people's asking for accuracy.

Or the same people that may say "why do we complain about the new "Mxxxx cold-war era kit issues? It builds in a nice model anyway, so be happy to pay 100 bucks for it. How can you be so stupid that you aren't eager to burn your money? Its new! And its the only in town! Smile and be grateful to the gods of model manufacturing, because if you don't,who knows, they might leave releasing pieces of plastic and what would you do then???", and then talking about what accuracy means.

Well, we are all just simple men, no more no less...
But this trend in "editorial thinking" is what keeps me taking more distance from this site each time.
We know, any media has its editorial line, but that is what defines what and how many customers/readers/followers it will have. And also it defines what makes that media different from the rest, and offering an added value -remember this concept, its a key stone in bussiness-...

All that said, see you when I see you, and good modelling to everyone
retiredyank
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Posted: Friday, March 20, 2015 - 06:32 PM UTC
I like rivet counters and wish I was one. They provide fairly accurate advice on how to make a build more realistic. I stop somewhere around 3mm. For one, I have five rulers and don't trust the width of the indicator to within a millimeter. If I don't care, I still enjoy learning about the vehicles I build. I truly enjoy following their builds. It helps, when I encounter the need to scratch build parts. Finally, to each his own.