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For discussions on tanks, artillery, jeeps, etc.
Ode to Rivet Counters
ericadeane
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Michigan, United States
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Posted: Friday, March 20, 2015 - 06:35 PM UTC
@hugohuertas No one is talking about banning anyone. It's just a discussion. No need for you to remove yourself. The original poster, who happens to be a volunteer editor, is entitled to his opinions too, right?

Frankly, Armorama has been a leading arena where serious flaws have been discussed and brought to the doorsteps of industry. The DML M103, Hobby Boss GMC Water truck and the cited Bronco M24 Chaffee errors were widely discussed here.

As a matter of fact, anytime anyone on any site discusses DML M103 errors/fixes, invariably someone posts the link to Pavel's thread here on Armorama. What does that say?
KevPak
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Posted: Friday, March 20, 2015 - 06:58 PM UTC
Well, going back to the original post in which this subject was approached as a business decision,the actual evolution of company kits over time shows an alternate strategy: release the kit with the best dimensions, details, etc. you have available to your company and then wait for the RCs to point out the flaws in it. Then release the "updated" version which corrects those flaws. Having a specific interest in the Nashorn panzerjager, I can remember when Dragon/DML released their first model of this vehicle, way over 20 years ago (it was the first commercially available kit of this SPG). However, the kit was flawed in many ways, from basic dimensions to just the overall fit of the parts. I can remember reading numerous negative posts about this model and was dissuaded from buying it because of these comments. But over the next couple decades Dragon has released at least three more kits of the Nashorn/Hornisse, each better than the preceding one. The latest "3 in 1" kit is a superb rendition, IMO, correcting all the previous criticisms. So, IMO, RCs provide a valuable function - they provide necessary feedback to a company willing to listen and make corrections to produce more accurate kits based on the RCs.
jimbrae
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Provincia de Lugo, Spain / España
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Posted: Friday, March 20, 2015 - 06:59 PM UTC
Well, 'Rivet Counter' is, IMO, a deliberately insulting term. I've said it before and i'll say it again, without the 'RCs' (jeez I HATE that expression) we'd be sitting here going Ohhh!!!! and Ahhhh!!! at 40 year-old Airfix moulds (or worse) there's a (probably more) page on FB full of that stuff.

Good to see that a Managing Editor is doing his best to keep things nice and 'democratic' rather than urging people to strive for a higher lever in their modeling....

Not impressed....
jimbrae
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Provincia de Lugo, Spain / España
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Posted: Friday, March 20, 2015 - 07:19 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Almost all of us are aware that there's room for everybody in this hobby, as is in any other aspect of life, but I cannot help thinking that if this site becomes just an online magazine about new releases and a "herren club" where the only accepted conduct is to congratulate everyone because he just finished a model, being it great or so-so, the place will loose a huge number of visitors...
So, if one of the reasonable aims is on the "financial aid" of advertisers -just for not calling them the same manufacturers we seem to be supposed not to criticize ever-it does not seem the best managing strategy, at least not the one that may be expected from such "experts" in how to drive an enterprise as the initial post suggests we may find here...



I don't agree with all the points in the poster's response, this I DO agree with. Taken to its logical and worrying conclusión, should we be down on out knees thanking the manufacturers for such abberations as the M103 or (to a certain extent) the Saladin?

Not for me....
DKdent
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Rheinland-Pfalz, Germany
Joined: November 27, 2005
KitMaker: 182 posts
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Posted: Friday, March 20, 2015 - 07:21 PM UTC
Hello everybody,

I don`t see any specific sense in this threat so I guess I can sort it into the "cry for attention"-drawer. I think every forum should be very happy if some people with a decent knowledge of specific topics are on board and should try to keep them active.
Aside from that the simple fact that someone could be called a rivet counter doesn`t say something about his abilities to interact with other people. And I personally have never experienced the often mentioned "threat-destroying" rivetcounter of hell. I many cases I got pretty usefull stuff and lots of information from them and many were very happy to get usefull advices, both on the modelling and the rivet side, to beginners.

And I also don`t see any wrong with the business side as well. If the kit is pretty oubvious "not so good", why not name it??

I personally fear the "AK/MIG/AMMO/etc"-fanatics or the Dragon apologetics much more disturbing as some of these guys tend to act more on the emotional side than the fact based side.

So, at last: Hooray for well informed rivet counters. I am really thankfull for them.

Best Regards

Dennis
iowabrit
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Iowa, United States
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Posted: Friday, March 20, 2015 - 08:04 PM UTC
This entire discussion highlights the main reason I will never, ever post pics of my models on Armorama. I try my best to get things right and sometimes I miss things, not because I can't be bothered but because I didn't have the information when I was doing the build. To put 2-3 months effort in to a model and then have someone say 'yes but blah blah blah is wrong' would ruin any pleasure I got from my efforts....I enjoy building models and really, other peoples opinions are not my concern.
SgtRam
Staff MemberEditor-in-Chief
AEROSCALE
#197
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Posted: Friday, March 20, 2015 - 08:15 PM UTC
I see that the intend of the post has gone understood. The main point is that it is almost impossible to get a 100% accurate replica from a company.

And to clarify CONSTRUCTIVE comments are always welcome, and yes when they are constructive they help. But negative comments do not help.

And it was all said with a little humor, people take things way too seriously. The world needs to lighten up!

obg153
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Posted: Friday, March 20, 2015 - 08:48 PM UTC
My .02 cents: I'm not sure I see what the whole point was of even initiating this talk about rivet counters. How much $$, time & effort a company spends in creating a new kit doesn't factor in my decision to buy a kit, that's their cost of doing business. What I expect to get for my $$ is a reasonably accurate kit. I can live with roadwheels whose lightening holes are 1/4 mm smaller than the real thing was.
For me, there is a very distinct difference in the critiques by the RC's. When it's done to point out flaws in a newly released kit such as the ones already mentioned, then it serves a useful purpose. When it's done to criticize someone's finished build for no other reason than to say "well the latch on the toolbox needs to have a hex-head bolt," then that's both wrong & rude.
jimbrae
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Provincia de Lugo, Spain / España
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Posted: Friday, March 20, 2015 - 08:58 PM UTC
Yes, people DO take things too seriously.

I've been down this particular path before and the problem remains that the moment any member of staff posts anything critical/contraversial etc., it immediately gets taken as Editorial.

Saying that, I repeat what I said, no-one can expect a 100% accurate model, it's unreasonable. What did happen,again open to interpretation, is that the original post let some manufacturers (we all know who they are) off a pretty large hook. Now that, COULD be interpreted as Editorial at its worst. There is compelling evidence that certain manufacturers are sloppy, arrogant and treat their customers like muppets. I hope this ISN'T an editorial trend?

Some will remember the long-off days, when to be a member of Staff here was to be considered by some as little more than a shill for DML. Staffer beware?
CMOT
Staff MemberEditor-in-Chief
ARMORAMA
#406
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Posted: Friday, March 20, 2015 - 09:26 PM UTC
Jim: I cannot think of who you mean.

Rivet Counters did come about as a negative term, but I no longer think of it as one. After all it basically means expert and I am not going to write expert without seeing credentials. I will however admit that there are some on site who are very knowledgeable people and that has been proved by them time and again.
SgtRam
Staff MemberEditor-in-Chief
AEROSCALE
#197
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Posted: Friday, March 20, 2015 - 09:44 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Jim: I cannot think of who you mean.

Rivet Counters did come about as a negative term, but I no longer think of it as one. After all it basically means expert and I am not going to write expert without seeing credentials. I will however admit that there are some on site who are very knowledgeable people and that has been proved by them time and again.



Rivet Counter has always been used in the hobby, I first encountered in Model Railroading. It has as always been used as a light-heart term for the expert. It was never meant to be insulting.

The whole idea was to remind people why, financially and in terms of business, why getting the perfect model is impossible.

People posting negative comments on an open forum do nothing by hurt the hobby. It scares those who would like to try to hobby or are new to it. It says to them that companies are making crap, so why spend my money on this hobby?

Now if people were to phrase the comments in a constructive manner, it would be helpful to the hobby and may cause more companies to stand up and take notice, like they have in some cases with correct replacement parts provided by the company.
ChrisDM
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Posted: Friday, March 20, 2015 - 09:52 PM UTC
I can't agree with any of that Kevin

It might put people off a kit, but I think its stretching things to a somewhat ridiculous degree to say criticising a kit puts people off this hobby.

I know *I* didn't come into this hobby as a ready made superdetailling accuracy fan, but I read comments by people saying this kit was bad and that kit was bad

Sometimes it put me off buying a kit and I bought something else instead (informed choice anyone?) sometimes I thought 'well that detail the criticise doesn't matter to me, so I'll buy it anyway'

To claim people are unable to reason for themselves when seeing negative comments on models is to infatilize them

Modellers are either grown ups, or kids who have reached a certain age or level if they are perusing reviews on forums. They are not toddlers



As for 'hurting the hobby' websites about modelling are not the hobby, anymore than car magazines are the auto industry. Modelling is sitting at your bench building a model. Negative comments on news items and reviews is hurting no-one but maybe the bottom line of the manufacturer and frankly, unless its a stinker bashed on EVERY site and in EVERY magazine, then I don't think it will do more than give it a little dent.

This is a good site; but its not the centre of the modelling universe
Robbd01
#323
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Posted: Friday, March 20, 2015 - 09:56 PM UTC
I would like to comment that after 30+ years in the IT industry, I have discovered that this fine forum appears to be 53 Pixels short of a standard internet forum. A also noted that the red used in the nations flags for members appears to be off color. For this I have made a decision to end my subscription and to search for a more accurate designed forum.

Cheers
Removed by original poster on 03/21/15 - 17:01:48 (GMT).
Robbd01
#323
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Posted: Friday, March 20, 2015 - 10:02 PM UTC

Quoted Text

I would like to comment that after 30+ years in the IT industry, I have discovered that this fine forum appears to be 53 Pixels short of a standard internet forum. A also noted that the red used in the nations flags for members appears to be off color. For this I have made a decision to end my subscription and to search for a more accurate designed forum.

Cheers




JUST KIDDING !!!!!!!
I think this place is great. I do want to comment that I do not mind the 'Rivet Counters' at all just don't get more then one discussing the same subject as it does tend to get ugly (I have examples). I do use rivet counters (I call them Acute Accuracy Syndrome (AAS) (I know what you are thinking, don't need to go there) in par with AMS) to get a better idea on what I will be getting into or to expect if I decide to get that particular kit. I know that not every kit is perfect (and don't expect it) and if I did ever get a 100% perfectly accurate kit I don't think my current modeling skill set would do it justice. I must admit though that I have often found myself that my use/need for rivet counter (AAS's) comments is directly proportional to the cost of the kit.

Cheers
miniflea
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Joined: October 17, 2011
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Posted: Friday, March 20, 2015 - 11:35 PM UTC
The great thing about this hobby is that you can be as accurate or as detail oriented as you want to. When I started, I built kits I thought looked good with no regard for historical accuracy or much knowledge of the subject, and no reference material beyond what was on the box or in the instructions. I now have an extensive reference library (although not as extensive as I'd like) and I see each new build as an opportunity to learn about a slice of history. I would not call myself a rivet counter but I find as I go I am moving slowly in that direction.

I don't see anything wrong with either end of the spectrum, if you enjoy what you are doing (and we all are doing this because we enjoy it, right fellas?) I don't think it matters if that enjoyment comes from building straight out of the box or if it comes from researching and modifying/scratching to be as accurate and detailed as possible.
sauceman
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Posted: Friday, March 20, 2015 - 11:48 PM UTC
I'm not a rivet counter, but I like to play one on the internet.


cheers
junglejim
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Posted: Saturday, March 21, 2015 - 02:48 AM UTC
That's far from being an 'Ode' as well...
More confusing than anything. I'm curious where you get those numbers from.
What we need is a true definition of 'rivet counter'. Is it someone who notices all the deficiencies and is quick to point them out, yet never seems to build anything; or do you include those who notice and try to fix those problems as they build them, striving to reproduce as best they can the real item? If I want to make something accurate to the best of my ability am I a 'friendly rivet counter' or maybe the dreaded 'accuratizer'?

Jim
joepanzer
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Posted: Saturday, March 21, 2015 - 03:53 AM UTC
What's a rivet?
highway70
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Posted: Saturday, March 21, 2015 - 04:23 AM UTC
There are knowledgeable people who provide useful information, which can help the manufactures develop better kits, help the modeler to chose the most accurate models, and to build more accurate models from the kits available. This site has many of them.

Unfortunately there are some others who think they know, but don't. For instance many years ago a now defunct magazine had a review of a particular kit of a vehicle that said it was inaccurate, and could not be built into a good representation of any real vehicle. I own several books with numerous pictures of the vehicle depicted taken when it was new. It was actually a pretty accurate model of that one specific, although not typical of the type, vehicle. There were some compromises for motorization but they were only visible from a very low angle or by picking it up and looking at the underside.

It can take some time to separate those who know from those who think they know and even the true experts can be wrong once in awhile.

------------

I once saw a cartoon of a young man telling an Air Force pilot that the color of his plane was not prototypical.

JPTRR
Staff MemberManaging Editor
RAILROAD MODELING
#051
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Posted: Saturday, March 21, 2015 - 05:06 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I once saw a cartoon of a young man telling an Air Force pilot that the color of his plane was not prototypical.



I don't care who ya' are - THAT's funny!

There's also some truth to that in that Robin Olds once said he didn't know the colors and markings of his P-51 until a modeler presented him with a model and the photos used for source material.

There is also the matter of the field-applied camouflage on some yellow-nosed P-51s; they are popularly modeled as blue yet a former curator of NMUSAF told me that the surviving pilots of the flight wrote an affidavit that it was an olive drab, and NMUSAF did research with the original film that proved it. Yet a well known researcher (whom I hold in absolute high esteem) stated - at least a few years ago - that it had to be blue, based on ground observers. A bright sky reflects blue to surfaces as this shot by a friend shows:


:[]--

Back on topic. I concur with both Kevin and Darren;
Quoted Text

Rivet Counter has always been used in the hobby, I first encountered in Model Railroading. It has as always been used as a light-heart term for the expert. It was never meant to be insulting.



Quoted Text

Rivet Counters did come about as a negative term, but I no longer think of it as one. After all it basically means expert...



One of my backgrounds is art and in art one weathers critiques and peer reviews; some people are there to spit in the punch bowl while some are there to help improve the recipe. I tend to [proudly!] be a rivet counter on some subjects while there are some that I am satisfied to say it looks like a _____ to me. Personally, if someone pays me enough, I will wave my magic wand and make every model 100% accurate and authentic. Until then, I encourage people to tell me that my whatchimaschinenischawaski isn't quite right; I'll seek sources and say "thank you for helping me improve", or refute them. Not everyone gets it right every time - a (literally) rocket scientist friend just forwarded me an issue of a professional aerospace journal which mistakenly stated that NASA was founded by President Kennedy!

So critique me. If you have good intentions and knowledge, I have a thick skin. Regardless, I'll enjoy my hobby as I choose to enjoy it.
wedgetail53
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Posted: Saturday, March 21, 2015 - 05:11 AM UTC
Gentlemen

Kevin - you succeeded in making a lot of people contribute to the forum, and I for one could see that you were intending a bit of dry humour but I fear a lot of people just see what is written in front of them.

I agree with one of the previous posters - "to each his own". If there are some who don't like my work, c'est la vie!

Regards

Rob
C_JACQUEMONT
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Posted: Saturday, March 21, 2015 - 06:38 AM UTC
I think the rant was more about people critisizing new releases than about people nitpicking about other modellers' work.

It's free speech plain and simple, to be able to speak against or in favour or such or such new kit. I've been on both sides of the fence myself.

Like others have said, I like to build and detail/correct stuff sometimes when I have the references available and the will to do so. At other times, I'll build strictly out of the box. When I do go the superdetail/correction route I'm glad some modellers have pointed out on forums the failings of a kit.

So I guess I have to give a BIG thank you to rivet counters out there!

Cheers,

Christophe
DocEvan
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Posted: Saturday, March 21, 2015 - 06:40 AM UTC
Being a long time truck modeler, who has had to depend mostly on the ~45 year old AMT kits as subject matter, I've long learned that it's better to light a candle than curse the darkness.

But I can understand the logic of "for $50, they could have gotten THAT PART correct", because Tamiya did and at half the cost."

Believe me, I know car modelers who complain bitter about minute mistakes ("they left off that chrome trim line and the wheel wells are oval, not elliptical!"). From their ire, you'd think the models were made from human body parts.

I've also learned that the people who complain the loudest, build the least.

C_JACQUEMONT
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Posted: Saturday, March 21, 2015 - 06:46 AM UTC

Quoted Text



I've also learned that the people who complain the loudest, build the least.




Is that really the case with the "notorious" rivet counters on Armorama? Actually I think the cheerful "everything's rosy" crowd aren't that prolific.

Cheers,

Christophe