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Ode to Rivet Counters
bill_c
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Posted: Sunday, March 22, 2015 - 09:01 PM UTC
Ian writes: (3)Is there a negative impact from rivet counting against modelers? Yes. Show-holders will deny it but attendance has dropped off at shows over the years and the true rivet counters bear some responsibility for it.

Not sure I agree.

Show attendance and models submitted are off across the board. My local club is thinking about dropping its annual show, and many others are struggling, whether in toy soldiers or whatnot. Kids today aren't taking up the hobby, and as our ranks die off or fellers lost their jobs in the Great Recession, people got out of the habit of going to shows. Or spending money.

Plus the Internet now means I can order 5x the items found at most shows, often for far less money. I never did understand the plastic vendors who will pay for tables, then schlepp home the same stuff they brought because their prices are too high.

Does "negativity" hurt the hobby, or force us to redouble our efforts at getting things right?

If you can't take criticism, maybe you shouldn't be entering a contest?
SgtRam
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Posted: Sunday, March 22, 2015 - 09:03 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

But my all time favorite complaint was when someone complained that the Armorama news article titles were too obscure, and he had to click on each news title to see what it was actually about.



That was me, and I still maintain that the titles of news articles, written by the staff, ought to at least try to describe what the article is about rather than use some cutesy pun or gibberish that makes the whole site smell like click bait. No, it is not a big deal to open the message - and then open another link to see the actual article - but as others agreed, if your purpose is to get people to read your content you should at least provide meaningful leads to get to it. As I said then, if the title was too obtuse I and others just skipped the post and article altogether, hardly the result that that the authors intended.



KL




Hey Kurt

Why don't you put your money where your mouth is and volunteer to be staff here and write news stories day after day? Or is that beneath you?

SdAufKla
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Posted: Sunday, March 22, 2015 - 09:28 PM UTC

Quoted Text

I have never removed anyone from the network for being classed as a rivet counter and nor would I. People are entitled to their opinions, even staff members. Kevin’s chain has obviously been rattled and he is letting off steam via a discussion.



Thank goodness.

I thought for a moment my days here on Armorama were numbered. Being an unapologetic "rivet counter," I didn't think I'd be allowed to stay with the Managing Editor's clearly stated position.

Frankly, I didn't find anything humorous or "light hearted" about Kevin's original post. He seemed to be pretty explicit with what he was saying and to whom.

The reactions and responses from us "rivet counters" is easily understood.

I might not be "banned," but it does make me question my participation here.
Vodnik
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Posted: Sunday, March 22, 2015 - 09:35 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Hey Kurt

Why don't you put your money where your mouth is and volunteer to be staff here and write news stories day after day? Or is that beneath you?



I don't get your point. I've written my share of news stories in the past and I still fully subscribe to what Kurt wrote. Armorama is not a tabloid - we want short and to-the-point titles, not such enigmatic efforts, in many cases completely impossible to understand for a non native speaker...
pseudorealityx
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Posted: Sunday, March 22, 2015 - 09:37 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

But my all time favorite complaint was when someone complained that the Armorama news article titles were too obscure, and he had to click on each news title to see what it was actually about.



That was me, and I still maintain that the titles of news articles, written by the staff, ought to at least try to describe what the article is about rather than use some cutesy pun or gibberish that makes the whole site smell like click bait. No, it is not a big deal to open the message - and then open another link to see the actual article - but as others agreed, if your purpose is to get people to read your content you should at least provide meaningful leads to get to it. As I said then, if the title was too obtuse I and others just skipped the post and article altogether, hardly the result that that the authors intended.



KL



I started a similar thread.

http://armorama.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=SquawkBox&file=index&req=viewtopic&topic_id=204777#1716841


And due to the response, I now refuse to open any of the news articles. Oh well.
pseudorealityx
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Posted: Sunday, March 22, 2015 - 09:42 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Quoted Text

But my all time favorite complaint was when someone complained that the Armorama news article titles were too obscure, and he had to click on each news title to see what it was actually about.



That was me, and I still maintain that the titles of news articles, written by the staff, ought to at least try to describe what the article is about rather than use some cutesy pun or gibberish that makes the whole site smell like click bait. No, it is not a big deal to open the message - and then open another link to see the actual article - but as others agreed, if your purpose is to get people to read your content you should at least provide meaningful leads to get to it. As I said then, if the title was too obtuse I and others just skipped the post and article altogether, hardly the result that that the authors intended.



KL




Hey Kurt

Why don't you put your money where your mouth is and volunteer to be staff here and write news stories day after day? Or is that beneath you?





It's not beneath me. I simply have no desire to post up months old "news" stories with click-bait titles.

That said, given the number of modeling/reference books that Kurt's name shows up on, I think he's pulling his weight within the modeling community.
Unreality
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Posted: Sunday, March 22, 2015 - 09:46 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Ian writes: (3)Is there a negative impact from rivet counting against modelers? Yes. Show-holders will deny it but attendance has dropped off at shows over the years and the true rivet counters bear some responsibility for it.

Not sure I agree.

Show attendance and models submitted are off across the board. My local club is thinking about dropping its annual show, and many others are struggling, whether in toy soldiers or whatnot. Kids today aren't taking up the hobby, and as our ranks die off or fellers lost their jobs in the Great Recession, people got out of the habit of going to shows. Or spending money.

Plus the Internet now means I can order 5x the items found at most shows, often for far less money. I never did understand the plastic vendors who will pay for tables, then schlepp home the same stuff they brought because their prices are too high.

Does "negativity" hurt the hobby, or force us to redouble our efforts at getting things right?

If you can't take criticism, maybe you shouldn't be entering a contest?




I think there are a lot of reasons for drops in attendance. But honestly, I stopped doing shows after some of my work was reamed because the judges didn't like the more artistic style I went with. They didn't like the modulation or the rust I did. Now, there was some genuine constructive criticism, which helped. But there was also a lot of "my way is the right way...and if you don't do it my way, then you are wrong". That kind of mentality can be shared by anyone, of course. However, I do see a lot of "rivet counters" with that attitude (not all, mind you).

And if you think about young people not wanting to get into the hobby...who would if they are going to be told how bad a kit is or how they need to buy all this aftermarket stuff to make it salvageable. Not that I don't appreciate the research some people do, but it's undeniable that the attitude of some (not all) experienced modelers has affected how much younger people wish to participate in the hobby.
SgtRam
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Posted: Sunday, March 22, 2015 - 09:47 PM UTC

Quoted Text


It's not beneath me. I simply have no desire to post up months old "news" stories with click-bait titles.

That said, given the number of modeling/reference books that Kurt's name shows up on, I think he's pulling his weight within the modeling community.



Month old? We get news directly from manufacturer before it is released publicly. But since it is "click and bait" I guess you are missing out.

And Kurt, who cares where his name appears. He is not doing it for the modeling community, he is doing it for his own pocket book.
Unreality
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Posted: Sunday, March 22, 2015 - 09:48 PM UTC
Also, I didn't mean any offense to you Kurt or anyone else who wrote about the news section. I get where you're coming from...I just think it's a small drop in a rather large ocean.
junglejim
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Posted: Sunday, March 22, 2015 - 09:51 PM UTC
Geez, give it a rest. Antagonizing everyone isn't helping your cause

Jim
jimbrae
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Posted: Sunday, March 22, 2015 - 10:00 PM UTC

Quoted Text

It's not beneath me. I simply have no desire to post up months old "news" stories with click-bait titles.



If that comment wasn't so ill-informed, it'd be almost funny....
Vodnik
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Posted: Sunday, March 22, 2015 - 10:06 PM UTC

Quoted Text

We get news directly from manufacturer before it is released publicly.


So you have it so easy these days... Back in my day (with jimbrae in charge of News) we had to hunt for news, browsing manufacturer's sites and Asian online shops every day in hope of catching the hot news as soon as possible (never ending race with Terry at PMMS ).

Quoted Text

He is not doing it for the modeling community, he is doing it for his own pocket book.


Huh... And what is wrong with getting paid for a job well done?...
SgtRam
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Posted: Sunday, March 22, 2015 - 10:09 PM UTC

Quoted Text


So you have it so easy these days... Back in my day (with jimbrae in charge of News) we had to hunt for news, browsing manufacturer's sites and Asian online shops every day in hope of catching the hot news as soon as possible (never ending race with Terry at PMMS ).



Guess you did not know how to build relationships with manufacturers? You need to work smarter, not harder.

SgtRam
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Posted: Sunday, March 22, 2015 - 10:11 PM UTC


Quoted Text

He is not doing it for the modeling community, he is doing it for his own pocket book.

Huh... And what is wrong with getting paid for a job well done?...



Then you can't say he is giving back to the modeling community, he is taking the modeling communities money. While I volunteer. Seems like there is a difference on who is giving back to the community?
jimbrae
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Posted: Sunday, March 22, 2015 - 10:23 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


So you have it so easy these days... Back in my day (with jimbrae in charge of News) we had to hunt for news, browsing manufacturer's sites and Asian online shops every day in hope of catching the hot news as soon as possible (never ending race with Terry at PMMS ).



Guess you did not know how to build relationships with manufacturers? You need to work smarter, not harder.



It did become easier. This site is still, as far as i'm aware, enjoying the 'legacy' that we left regarding trade contacts? The above statement is fairly insulting considering that if it wasn't for the work put in in development of contacts, years ago, you probably wouldn't have 50% of the sources of Review and News material that you have now?

jimbrae
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Posted: Sunday, March 22, 2015 - 10:27 PM UTC

Quoted Text



Quoted Text

He is not doing it for the modeling community, he is doing it for his own pocket book.

Huh... And what is wrong with getting paid for a job well done?...



Then you can't say he is giving back to the modeling community, he is taking the modeling communities money. While I volunteer. Seems like there is a difference on who is giving back to the community?



When Kurt published his excellent book on the M5, he told me privately how much he made from it. I can't remember the actual quantity, but suffice to say, he didn't buy a beach house in Malibu on the proceeds....
Biggles2
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Posted: Sunday, March 22, 2015 - 10:29 PM UTC
Gentlemen, please! Will someone close this thread before all-out war begins? It's not even amusing anymore!
SgtRam
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Posted: Sunday, March 22, 2015 - 10:30 PM UTC

Quoted Text


It did become easier. This site is still, as far as i'm aware, enjoying the 'legacy' that we left regarding trade contacts? The above statement is fairly insulting considering that if it wasn't for the work put in in development of contacts, years ago, you probably wouldn't have 50% of the sources of Review and News material that you have now?



Like when you up and disappeared without a word and left the news team high and dry. We pretty well had to start over again. You left us nothing.
jimbrae
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Posted: Sunday, March 22, 2015 - 10:40 PM UTC
Good to see that you're still capable of working on your own initiative Kevin....
hugohuertas
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Posted: Sunday, March 22, 2015 - 10:40 PM UTC
Well, after reading the 100+ replies here, from both people with whom I usually agree and people that almost always see things all the other way than me, I have to point out one simple conclusión:
the original post, no matter what the intention of the editor was, just succeeded in simultaneously bother/offend people that usually are on opposite sidewalks, disagreeing and arguing -sometimes in a hard way, like Mr. Laughlin and myself- about new releases or "early reviews", not to mention other guys who are/were undoubtfully helpful and colaborative in this very site.

My understanding of the initial post was that it was mainly aimed to people like myself, who are considered excessively critical to the accuracy/price ratio of some recently or soon to be released kits... Fair enough, but I do not care about that and will keep being demanding with manufacturers if they want to get my money.
But later, while going further in the debate I see how it reached the point of flaming out the opinions of RC no matter their position about this point.

I've just read a direct reply kind of saying to Mr. Laughlin -with whom I frequently disagree but deserves my full respect, and whose contributions to this site as a frequent poster cannot be ignored nor denied- "why don't you just shut the * up, or come here and teach us how to do our stuff?".
Maybe I'm too sensitive, but that's the way I read it, and I'm not even involved in it...

And now it became a personal rant against anyone who post a critic about things that with no doubt can be improved in this site...
Well, not the best "marketing" strategy, I must say once more...
A site like this "lives" through its visitors and the people posting in its fórums. Otherwise, how would it go on??
And how will you know if you are doing the job in a right way without the feedback of the people the site is aimed to, even if it is not always as kind as you might expect?

On a last note, talking about "news": I more often than not see that some members post advice of new or future releases way before the editors do the same -I can give you a list of news posted by Hisham sometimes a day earlier than the News section, just to give an example-.
Something is definitely not working in that statement : "We get news directly from manufacturer before it is released publicly"

Good modeling to everyone
yeahwiggie
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Posted: Sunday, March 22, 2015 - 10:43 PM UTC
Good grief, people...
Will you look at yourself?
What is this? A pissingcontest? A show off of the my way or the highway attitude?

I do believe the key issue here is lack of mutual respect and common manners. That goes both for the so called rivetcounters as well as for some of the more "senior" members.

And I would like to point out that in my humble opinion the tone of voice within the forum has deteriorated as of late. It has become ladyy, know it all-ish and above all disrespectful.

Some egos have become too bloated and some toes have become too long.

We build models, we paint them and we come here to show that and receive comments or to learn. Bashing someone's build because the model is incorrect or even if the finish is toylike, is a prime example of disrespect. You might want to consider how much time, effort and money the other guy put into his work, before you bring out a sledgehammer. If you have nothing constructive or to the point to say or can not do that with courtesy , then shut the hell up!
Goes pretty much for any topic, as far as I am concerned.
If a manufacturer releases a model with glaring errors, than that too should be pointed out without grinding it down.

And if you hit the wrong tone, because your having a bad day... hey that happens to all of us, but at least have the decency to apologise.
Unreality
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Posted: Sunday, March 22, 2015 - 10:45 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Good grief, people...
Will you look at yourself?
What is this? A pissingcontest? A show off of the my way or the highway attitude?

I do believe the key issue here is lack of mutual respect and common manners. That goes both for the so called rivetcounters as well as for some of the more "senior" members.

And I would like to point out that in my humble opinion the tone of voice within the forum has deteriorated as of late. It has become ladyy, know it all-ish and above all disrespectful.

Some egos have become too bloated and some toes have become too long.

We build models, we paint them and we come here to show that and receive comments or to learn. Bashing someone's build because the model is incorrect or even if the finish is toylike, is a prime example of disrespect. You might want to consider how much time, effort and money the other guy put into his work, before you bring out a sledgehammer. If you have nothing constructive or to the point to say or can not do that with courtesy , then shut the hell up!
Goes pretty much for any topic, as far as I am concerned.
If a manufacturer releases a model with glaring errors, than that too should be pointed out without grinding it down.

And if you hit the wrong tone, because your having a bad day... hey that happens to all of us, but at least have the decency to apologise.



Agreed!
CMOT
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Posted: Sunday, March 22, 2015 - 10:45 PM UTC
News titles are written following direction from the publisher, yes we did get it wrong for a while due to a lack of understanding on our part. The titles as they are now are staying as they are, if that offends you then don't read them. A perfect example of free choice.

I am not bothered by people classed as rivet counters or whatever title they prefer, I suspect that they don’t have a title and don’t give it any thought either, at the end of the day we try to build models as best we can and to our satisfaction. I do pay attention to what members like Pawel and Kurt write in relation to reviews and news, but I also listen to others comments as well and I do not always agree regardless of who wrote whichever comment. Models like the M103 which seems to be the model of choice is a great example of why people with a good eye and knowledge should be listened to, as I like to be informed when deciding to buy or not, however I also suspect 1,000s have been bought and built by modellers of all skill sets and the result is pleasing to them.

To try and clear up what Pawel took offence to: you are welcome to point out short comings in a model using whatever material you choose to clarify your point. What I referred to was the replies that are along the lines of ‘the wheels are 0.5mm out as indicated by the angled CAD drawing and the turret is 1mm to far forward and because of these you are an idiot if you buy this model. Yes this is an exaggeration, but you know the sort of replies to which I refer.

And I will say again for the HARD of HEARING that Kevin wrote a piece about something that was irritating him and he tried to write it in an amusing but informative way. He may have failed in both respects, as people have taken what they want from his writing and twisted into a personal attack on them. He has then been attacked for holding an opinion by some and so has attacked as well. It is called human nature in this respect so get over it.
SaxonTheShiba
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Posted: Sunday, March 22, 2015 - 10:49 PM UTC
Bill, I never avoided a show/contest because of criticism. Actually I like contests/shows and if there was conflict and trash talking in the venue that made it even better. Even saw a fight break out between some folks in a certain venue in a nearby state which shall remain nameless. Fortunately the important stuff didn't get broken....the models.

Best wishes,

Ian


Quoted Text

Ian writes: (3)Is there a negative impact from rivet counting against modelers? Yes. Show-holders will deny it but attendance has dropped off at shows over the years and the true rivet counters bear some responsibility for it.

Not sure I agree.

Show attendance and models submitted are off across the board. My local club is thinking about dropping its annual show, and many others are struggling, whether in toy soldiers or whatnot. Kids today aren't taking up the hobby, and as our ranks die off or fellers lost their jobs in the Great Recession, people got out of the habit of going to shows. Or spending money.

Plus the Internet now means I can order 5x the items found at most shows, often for far less money. I never did understand the plastic vendors who will pay for tables, then schlepp home the same stuff they brought because their prices are too high.

Does "negativity" hurt the hobby, or force us to redouble our efforts at getting things right?

If you can't take criticism, maybe you shouldn't be entering a contest?

hugohuertas
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Posted: Sunday, March 22, 2015 - 10:59 PM UTC
Yes Darren, no doubt, the guilt is always on the readers, not on the writer. An Editor is a superior and error-less race, and we members owe them a silent and distant respect no matter what they say about us...

But you are right in one point: its time to get over it.
Best luck to all, and bye bye "Armorama Herren Klub", at my almost 60 I have better things to do -actually build models, for instance-