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Panzer IV wheel help
TDZepp
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Keski-Suomi, Finland
Joined: April 15, 2015
KitMaker: 48 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, October 12, 2016 - 07:46 PM UTC
Hello,

Im on my new build and had accident with the drivewheel.
My paintbooth was incomplete and I dropped the wheel while painting and it got sucked in to the fan.. needles to say it got nice hit.

So I tought to make this damaged. So I would like to know the contruction of the drivewheel. How would I best represent it as damaged.
See attached picture for reference, this is where Im with it atm.




So is the centrehub separate part and how is the wheel attached to the axle and so on.
retiredyank
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Arkansas, United States
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Posted: Wednesday, October 12, 2016 - 11:13 PM UTC
I recommend twisting the ends, where broken. This should look like it was damaged.
TDZepp
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Keski-Suomi, Finland
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Posted: Thursday, October 13, 2016 - 12:22 AM UTC
Im not sure, do these bend or shatter. I would thing they are hardened or such for better wear resistance.
retiredyank
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Arkansas, United States
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Posted: Thursday, October 13, 2016 - 08:00 PM UTC
I don't believe that they were cast.
AgentG
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Nevada, United States
Joined: December 21, 2008
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Posted: Thursday, October 13, 2016 - 08:18 PM UTC
The main body of the wheel was cast. The ring with the teeth was bolted on. It I believe was drop forged. The ring would bend. The wheel would shatter.

G
TDZepp
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Keski-Suomi, Finland
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Posted: Thursday, October 13, 2016 - 10:36 PM UTC

Quoted Text

The main body of the wheel was cast. The ring with the teeth was bolted on. It I believe was drop forged. The ring would bend. The wheel would shatter.

G



So was the bolts on the body of the wheel(where the inner teeth are), the outer ring was bolted on with the hubcap?
How was the whole wheel attached to axle? nut under the hubcap?
I would really appreciate if someone knows where to find refence pictures, I tried googling around but came up with nothing

I have the hubcap still, but tought if I could represent this without it, but if nothing else I will have to use it and "remove" the nuts and make only pinbolts somehow.

ps. Thanks for the input so far, both of you!
Frenchy
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Rhone, France
Joined: December 02, 2002
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Posted: Friday, October 14, 2016 - 12:23 AM UTC
Here you can see some missing teeth on the sprocket (but the ring is intact):




Here you can notice that a segment of the ring is missing :



and here the whole sprocket is gone...



You could even build your Panzer IV as a short-tracked one, just like these :


Full size

H.P.
TDZepp
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Keski-Suomi, Finland
Joined: April 15, 2015
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Posted: Friday, October 14, 2016 - 01:52 AM UTC
Nice pictures,

I think I will do partially removed bolts on the hub and bent/damaged outer ring. I will drill holes to the damaged bolt heads that I have atm. Like in this picture, 2 bolts missing.


Thanks for the help everyone!
TDZepp
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Keski-Suomi, Finland
Joined: April 15, 2015
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Posted: Friday, October 14, 2016 - 01:53 PM UTC
Well I dont mind having to make damaged model(kinda like the idea), if I can make it even somewhat acceptable. I have Henschel truck that I could use in the dio too as supply truck.

There is 2 extra outer rings in the dragon kit.. I havent checked if they are identical to the 2 I used, so I could make the it whole except like half of the bolts in the centerhub.

I dont really drive towards 100% accuracy, even 90%. Just that something isnt too obvious for avarage joe.
firstcircle
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England - South East, United Kingdom
Joined: November 19, 2008
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Posted: Friday, October 14, 2016 - 02:55 PM UTC

Quoted Text



You could even build your Panzer IV as a short-tracked one, just like these :

H.P.



How odd - I've seen photos before where the idler is gone and presumably the Tank is still mobile, but in this case, I don't understand... I guess it would still move with the power from one side only, without going round in circles?
easyco69
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Ontario, Canada
Joined: November 03, 2012
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Posted: Friday, October 14, 2016 - 05:33 PM UTC
Here is a good example of a damaged sprocket.





Namabiiru
Staff MemberAssociate Editor
MODEL SHIPWRIGHTS
#399
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Rhode Island, United States
Joined: March 05, 2014
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Posted: Friday, October 14, 2016 - 05:55 PM UTC
I notice in Sam's last photo the mismatched return rollers and road wheel. I wonder if it was found that way or if the curators of the display used whatever scrounged parts they could locate to get it as much into order as possible.

As for the rest of the photos, the prevalent theme seems to be the cast teeth would snap off easy enough, but the ring to which they were mounted generally remains intact, albeit deformed.

Removed by original poster on 10/16/16 - 03:04:27 (GMT).
tatbaqui
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ARMORAMA
#040
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Metro Manila, Philippines
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Posted: Saturday, October 15, 2016 - 08:08 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

The main body of the wheel was cast. The ring with the teeth was bolted on. It I believe was drop forged. The ring would bend. The wheel would shatter.

G



So was the bolts on the body of the wheel(where the inner teeth are), the outer ring was bolted on with the hubcap?
How was the whole wheel attached to axle? nut under the hubcap?
I would really appreciate if someone knows where to find refence pictures, I tried googling around but came up with nothing

I have the hubcap still, but tought if I could represent this without it, but if nothing else I will have to use it and "remove" the nuts and make only pinbolts somehow.

ps. Thanks for the input so far, both of you!



It's neither an actual reference photo nor something out of a technical manual. Dragon has these Pz IV superkits where the assembly of the sprocket may already be a small build in itself. Will this help you, at least visualize how things may have gone together?



AgentG
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Nevada, United States
Joined: December 21, 2008
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Posted: Saturday, October 15, 2016 - 10:00 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text



You could even build your Panzer IV as a short-tracked one, just like these :

H.P.



How odd - I've seen photos before where the idler is gone and presumably the Tank is still mobile, but in this case, I don't understand... I guess it would still move with the power from one side only, without going round in circles?



It's for towing purposes. Having a short track keeps the tank "balanced" in terms of ground resistance.

G
varanusk
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ARMORAMA
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Santa Cruz de Tenerife, Spain / España
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Posted: Sunday, October 16, 2016 - 12:54 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I reiterate--I really think you should find a replacement part. This strikes me as applying mud on mistakes and blemishes to cover mistakes and blemishes, not because that is where is mud should be...



I agree... according to logic and photos, you should not represent this damage alone. If the tank was hit on the sprocket it could not move and more hits would follow soon. Apart from the difficulty of realistically damaging the wheel.

A copy in resin from the other sprocket, or an additional one from someone who has a spare should not be that difficult.
KruppCake
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Ontario, Canada
Joined: July 13, 2015
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Posted: Sunday, October 16, 2016 - 08:24 AM UTC
You can contact the manufacturer and buy the sprue with the wheel on it for a few bucks.
Namabiiru
Staff MemberAssociate Editor
MODEL SHIPWRIGHTS
#399
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Rhode Island, United States
Joined: March 05, 2014
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Posted: Monday, October 17, 2016 - 03:12 AM UTC
SamOll,
As has been pointed out, finding a replacement sprocket will probably be easier than trying to retrofit the rest of the tank with enough damage to be consistent, which also is likely going to run into the need to add some level of interior detailing, and so on.

On the other hand, since you have expressed a desire to have a go at representing battle damage this may be a good opportunity to practice that skill.

I would also advise taking comments from the group with a grain of salt. While I understand everyone (and, yes, I do mean everyone) is trying in their way to be helpful and get very passionate about their hobby, it's not at all appropriate or necessary to use words like 'foolish' and 'chicanery' to describe an individual's choices with regard to how they go about their hobby, not to mention the idea that there is only one right way to do it. That choice of words sounds more like an attack on you than the constructive input I know it was meant to be.

BTW, If 100% accuracy were in fact the only acceptable outcome I might feel obligated to point out that Gerrymandering is manipulating the boundaries of an electoral constituency so as to favor one party or class, and that jerry rigging (or jury rigging) refers to makeshift repairs or temporary contrivances, made with only the tools and materials that happen to be on hand.

KruppCake
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Ontario, Canada
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Posted: Monday, October 17, 2016 - 03:40 AM UTC
Model realism also needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Model making is 50% art and 50% accuracy (in my opinion).
Bravo1102
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New Jersey, United States
Joined: December 08, 2003
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Posted: Monday, October 17, 2016 - 05:08 AM UTC
All the pictures shown thus far are of nearly catastrophic destruction. How about "oops" damage that the Crew can fix?

Have the track off and a new sprocket ring on the ground (this is where you sneak in the spare parts in the kit because it would not to be the same) Or have the crew looking at it wondering what the driver was thinking when he hit that big Rock and broke the sprocket. Also if you throw a track going over uneven ground it could also damage the sprocket like that, especially if someone was driving too fast.

There are plenty of things that can go wrong on a tracked vehicle without blowing its guts out. The suggested truck could be someone who stopped by to lend a hand or be the unit shop truck (though that does not mean it has to a special kind of box truck) It could be the truck with the parts.

But you don't have to do catastrophic damage to go with a bent sprocket ring.
TDZepp
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Keski-Suomi, Finland
Joined: April 15, 2015
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Posted: Monday, October 17, 2016 - 07:20 PM UTC
Well ya, it doesnt have to be antitank mine or something else more catastrophic.
I think such damage could be a hit from an angle that the projectile hit the ring and the track leaving little other damage, ricoche or debris from other explosion or hit to near by vehicle and so on. Bombing debris etc etc.
Damage could have come from so many sources that there isnt right way, other than how the material reacts to imagined scenario... What ever it was.

And Im going to make it so that it pleases me and doesnt look too weird IMO.


Like in this, the sprocket is missing an section and there is no other catastrophic damage around the area.
KruppCake
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Ontario, Canada
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Posted: Monday, October 17, 2016 - 07:36 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Well ya, it doesnt have to be antitank mine or something else more catastrophic.
I think such damage could be a hit from an angle that the projectile hit the ring and the track leaving little other damage, ricoche or debris from other explosion or hit to near by vehicle and so on. Bombing debris etc etc.
Damage could have come from so many sources that there isnt right way, other than how the material reacts to imagined scenario... What ever it was.

And Im going to make it so that it pleases me and doesnt look too weird IMO.


Like in this, the sprocket is missing an section and there is no other catastrophic damage around the area.



Good idea. Also, it might be useful to note that a lot of captured vehicles were using both during and after the war for anti-tank weapons testing, causing damage not normally encountered during battle. At the end of the day, as long as your artwork looks good and you're happy with it, 100% realism isn't very necessary.
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