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Early Aviation
Discuss World War I and the early years of aviation thru 1934.
Am asking for some assistance in this
maxmwill
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Posted: Sunday, December 11, 2016 - 09:48 AM UTC
Recently, I received a new book(it was a private treat to myself, because I normally look for as many books and other publications dating from the 60s to the 80s, because not all information on all aircraft types is not on the internet), titled, "Beyond the Spitfire, the unseen designs of R.J Mitchell", by Ralph Pegram. This is a new book, and covers all the paper designs and most of the musings of Mitchell.

As a source for the historian this should be welcomed. For the modeller, well, let's just say that the sky is the limit. So, if anyone hasn't heard of this, go to Amazon and go shopping.

Anyway, on the cover is a large 4 engine flying boat, with gull wings, and sponsons with struts attached joined with the wings. It was this which caught my eye(I have a very soft place in my heart for large flying boats, especially the passenger carrying variety), and, figuring that this was one of his designs, I was intrigued enough to purchase it.

If this is already old hat, then I ask forgiveness.

But, leafing through the book, I came upon the design. It was Type 232 for specification R.2/33.

What I'd like to know is if anyone ever heard of this. This was a purely paper project, and was never built. But, Mitchell did put pencil to paper and drew a 3 view, which is a start, but I'm wondering if anyone heard of this and built a model of it.

As a large flying boat it is kind of pretty, in a nautical sort of way, but also as a project, it'd be quite the labor of love.
JackFlash
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Posted: Sunday, December 11, 2016 - 11:00 AM UTC
I ran across this several months back. "The system of producing aircraft to a specification ran from 1920 to 1949 during which the Air Ministry was replaced by first the Ministry of Aircraft Production (MAP) and then the Ministry of Supply (MoS). The system was applied to commercial aircraft as well, two being the de Havilland Comet and Vickers Viscount. During the period, over 800 specifications were issued. . .

Each specification name usually followed a pattern. A leading letter was usually present to identify the aircraft purpose. The codes used included B for "heavy bomber", e.g., B.12/36, P for "medium bomber", e.g., P.13/36, F for "fighter", e.g., F.10/35, and A for "army co-operation", e.g., A.39/34. The second part was a number identifying it in sequence and then after the slash, the year it was formulated, so in the example given above, B.12/36 signifies a specification for a heavy bomber, the twelfth specification of all types issued in 1936. Specifications were not always issued in sequence. . ."

So your recon bird was the second recorded or patented such design for 1933. The Short Sunderland was later built to meet requirement R.2/33 of the Air Ministry.

The Short S.
Kevlar06
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Posted: Sunday, December 11, 2016 - 11:37 AM UTC
I suggest if you are interested in seaplanes and all things flying boats, you check out Bryan Ribbans Flying boat web site "Seawings" at Seawings.co.uk
If you want to read a modeling article about the civil Short S.23, the predecessor of the Sunderland, you can check out this article that I wrote for Internet Modeler in 2008:

http://www.internetmodeler.com/scalemodels/aviation/Czechmaster_Resin_1_72_Short_S-23.php

Bryan Ribbans has assembled tons of info on seaplane design and references on the Seawings website. As for the cover picture on your book, it's closer to the Saunders & Roe entry in the 1933 seaplane design competition than the Short entry which won the competition, as such, the machine on the cover is more of an "artist's representation than to the real thing.
VR, Russ
maxmwill
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Posted: Sunday, December 11, 2016 - 06:57 PM UTC
Yes, that is true. The specification was for a large, 4-engine flying boat for patrol. Mitchell's favored design was under the 232 type designation. There is a chapter in the book which discusses this and other similar types in chapter 22, with a three view for Mitchell's 232 on page 175 in the same chapter. I wish I had a way to scan the three view for posting here, because as a large flying boat, it is very pretty, and I can almost hear it crying out how badly it wants to be scratch built as a model(although I have little experience with scratch building such a complex-looking flying machine).

Something I failed to mention in the seeder post. This book helps explain better Mitchell's route in design work from the S4 and S6 to the Spitfire. previous to this, I've read, repeatedly, where Mitchell got his inspiration for the Spitfire, the structure, from designing both those seaplanes. However, the book begs to differ a bit. The journey from the S4 to the Spitfire is a fascinating and exciting(for a modeller or an historian) one which is chronicled in greater detail than elsewhere(at least in my humble opinion).
maxmwill
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Posted: Sunday, December 11, 2016 - 07:06 PM UTC
I went to the site, and I love the Sunderland. However, is there a forum or other way to ask questions there? The more I think about Mitchell's design(which stayed in the paper airplane stage), the more I've started thinking about how I could scratchbuild it(I might not have much in the way of experience with regard to scratching a large model, let alone a large flying boat, but about the only way to gain experience in something is to just start in a direction, and go from there, most likely making mistakes all the way. But then, if it was easy, it wouldn't be much fun, now, wouldn't it?)
Kevlar06
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Posted: Sunday, December 11, 2016 - 09:29 PM UTC

Quoted Text

I went to the site, and I love the Sunderland. However, is there a forum or other way to ask questions there? The more I think about Mitchell's design(which stayed in the paper airplane stage), the more I've started thinking about how I could scratchbuild it(I might not have much in the way of experience with regard to scratching a large model, let alone a large flying boat, but about the only way to gain experience in something is to just start in a direction, and go from there, most likely making mistakes all the way. But then, if it was easy, it wouldn't be much fun, now, wouldn't it?)



Go to the Seawings site-- they have a Forum where you can ask Seaplane questions-- it's on the left side of the page, once there you'll need to register at the bottom of the page.
VR, Russ
maxmwill
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Posted: Sunday, December 11, 2016 - 10:44 PM UTC
Ok, thanks
maxmwill
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Posted: Sunday, December 18, 2016 - 09:40 PM UTC

Quoted Text

I suggest if you are interested in seaplanes and all things flying boats, you check out Bryan Ribbans Flying boat web site "Seawings" at Seawings.co.uk
If you want to read a modeling article about the civil Short S.23, the predecessor of the Sunderland, you can check out this article that I wrote for Internet Modeler in 2008:

http://www.internetmodeler.com/scalemodels/aviation/Czechmaster_Resin_1_72_Short_S-23.php

Bryan Ribbans has assembled tons of info on seaplane design and references on the Seawings website. As for the cover picture on your book, it's closer to the Saunders & Roe entry in the 1933 seaplane design competition than the Short entry which won the competition, as such, the machine on the cover is more of an "artist's representation than to the real thing.
VR, Russ



I could not find anywhere on that(and any other page for that matter) page, nor anything else that could be an equivalent icon.
maxmwill
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Posted: Sunday, December 18, 2016 - 09:42 PM UTC
Ok, I found it. I feel stupid now.
CaptnTommy
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Posted: Sunday, December 18, 2016 - 10:17 PM UTC
A character in one of my stories once said---

Poop happens, if ya survive ya walk away, wida good story. -- Green Bob; Adventures of Green Bob and the Monk

bottom line we all do it.

Captn Tommy