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Armor/AFV: Axis - WWII
Armor and ground forces of the Axis forces during World War II.
Hosted by Darren Baker
BR 52 Kriegsdampflokomotive 1/35 Scratched
165thspc
#0
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Kentucky, United States
Joined: April 13, 2011
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Posted: Sunday, December 16, 2018 - 10:35 PM UTC
The proof was probably determined by practical application rather than working it out mathematically.

Have the division locomotive shop make a set that was larger, try them on for size. (Literally) Then make a smaller set, try them. Try mounting them forward, then move them more to the rear. Ask which set worked best in which position?

Let the locomotive engineer decide which works the best.

Problem solved!

I'm guessing the mathematical proof came later.
ayovtshev
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Sofiya, Bulgaria
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Posted: Sunday, December 16, 2018 - 10:58 PM UTC
Not only a challenging scratchbuild here, but also a lot to learn-never asked myself earlier what (the heck) those wind panels on both sides of the loc were used for.

Well done Steff!

Jor-el
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Colorado, United States
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Posted: Monday, December 17, 2018 - 01:51 AM UTC
Here is an interesting link on this subject: http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/13/t/267714.aspx

Carl
Blaubar
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Rheinland-Pfalz, Germany
Joined: December 15, 2016
KitMaker: 261 posts
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Posted: Monday, December 17, 2018 - 02:19 AM UTC

Quoted Text

The proof was probably determined by practical application rather than working it out mathematically.

Have the division locomotive shop make a set that was larger, try them on for size. (Literally) Then make a smaller set, try them. Try mounting them forward, then move them more to the rear. Ask which set worked best in which position?

Let the locomotive engineer decide which works the best.

Problem solved!

I'm guessing the mathematical proof came later.



Yeah uhm this will be a boring postt^^. Witte did wind tests and actually, the placement was figured out to be rather not important at all, as long as it was about within the height of the windows it was supposed to cover. A bit lower or higher up did not matter. Also the big plates (BR01, 03 50...) all kind of turned obsolete as the smaller Witte Bleche were just as effective, smaller, lighter and saved materials.Wittebleche reduced the pair's weight from around 1000kg to 200kg with better performance. By request 127 of the "Arbeitsuasschuss Konstruktion" of late 1942, it requested the use of the Witte variant and not the older and larger ones. (Then, they scrapped them in total to save more steel, but decided this was stupid and introduced them again later on)
For quite some time, Eastern Germany thinned down the plates so much that they needed strengthening rims around as the plate would bend or get damaged, the West kept them a bit thicker, simplifying production at the cost of more material usage.
Quite interesting how many shapes and designs they came up with... and that's just from 2 books I rushed through yesterday.








Regarding the tender, there are some interesting approaches regarding efficiency and such.

For example the K4T30 was cheaper (25,000RM vs 32,000RM) than all other Wannentender (K2'2'T26 and K'2'2'T30) and compared to the BR50's K2'2'T26 it also had a better GTI (specific tender weight -> empty weight of tender vs tons of load capacity) value of 623kg/t compared to the K2'2'T26 (750kg/t), but much worse than the K2'2'T30 of 467kg/t. Westwaggon's K2'2'T30 was the most common tender (4800 units) after all due to standardization and amongst others, running gear performance. The K4T30 (1100 units) was a gap filler as the already ordered and constructed 4T30 chassis (for the BR50) had to be used and were too expensive to scrap. As such they were modified and specifically tailored for the BR52, with a complete overhaul and redesign of the mountings. Without this, the BR52 output would have been very low in 1943 and much lower in early 44 as the Westwaggon were not readily available in large enough numbers at first.
In the end, the new Westwaggon design saved almost 50% in labour time and 31% in materials as compared to the basic BR50's K2'2'T26. The empty weight dropped form 25.5t to 18.7t, despite an increase in coal capacity of 2t and water of 4t.* / **

Prost Angel. Well, this is what makes our hobby so interesting I'd say, learning new stuff along the way

Thanks Carl, bookmarked for tonight.

Oh and a BR52 that is no BR52 as it has a wrong tender


* Geschichte der deutschen Kriegslokomotiven - Helmut Griebl / Hansjürgen Wenzel
** Deutsche Kriegslokomotiven 1939-1954 - Alfred B. Gottwald
jrutman
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Pennsylvania, United States
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Posted: Monday, December 17, 2018 - 02:40 AM UTC
I have been following this build for a long time and I can only say something with this much research and work must be a total labor of love!
J
SpeedyJ
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Bangkok, Thailand / ไทย
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Posted: Monday, December 17, 2018 - 03:07 AM UTC
Research is just outstanding!
Like this very much.

Kind regards,

Robert Jan
HermannB
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Bayern, Germany
Joined: October 14, 2008
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Posted: Monday, December 17, 2018 - 04:23 AM UTC
Can we assume that the kit provided deflectors are a work of imagination? They look like Bauart Wagner but made of wood?
165thspc
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Kentucky, United States
Joined: April 13, 2011
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Posted: Monday, December 17, 2018 - 07:30 AM UTC
Was looking again at your work on shaping/cutting out the side frames for this loco and it reminded me; I have a buddy who scratch built a Southern Pacific 2-8-8-2 cab forward in HO - out of brass!

He milled the side frames using his Unimat as a vertical mill.

After seeing the model with all the lights are you not tempted to add these to your build?
Blaubar
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Rheinland-Pfalz, Germany
Joined: December 15, 2016
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Posted: Monday, December 17, 2018 - 09:00 AM UTC
Thanks Jerry and Robert. It's a fun thing and quite entertaining. I might as well share all the research for others interested. Maybe at some point a better BR52 model will be manufactured .

Michael, that is quite crazy, but impressive. I am scared of the tools needed for such an undertaking as your friend does. As to the lights, I will ask Steve for his stuff and how he handled it^^, I will try and copy it.

Hans-Hermann, sadly not. I know there is one picture with this weird smoke deflector, as of now I have not found it. But still got these books to go through thoroughly to find it, I think it was in one of them. But there are other wooden designs, so it is just a unique one. As there were quite a few variations, maybe Trumpeter chose this weird one because no one could criticize its measurements as no real data was available? No clue, it's strange either way.
Ohne Titel by Stefan, auf Flickr

Oh and here the comparison of Big ED Set and the Voyager ones:


And here are strange trials with improvised wooden versions:
*
*

Speaking of smoke deflectors, here is a nice one from 1943, where they had also strengthened the rim.
*

* Deutsche Reichsbahn 1939-1945 - A. Knipping / R. Schulz
Jor-el
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Colorado, United States
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Posted: Sunday, December 23, 2018 - 06:38 AM UTC
Stefan;

Once again astounding presentation, not only of your work but of your thorough research as well.

"It might sound stupid, but the reason doing this is that I want to build a train that has not been involved in the transport of KZ prisoners, at least I want to do my best at avoiding it."

From the above statement can I assume you can account for where a particular locomotive was at a certain time? By that I mean, where a loco was assigned in a time period? I would like to find out the number of the engine that hauled the K-5 "ROBERT" to Anzio, if possible.

Thanks again for all your efforts.

Carl
Blaubar
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Rheinland-Pfalz, Germany
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Posted: Sunday, December 23, 2018 - 09:04 PM UTC
Carl,
I am trying to minimize the chances, but it is not possible to exclude it totally as that would be almost impossible.
You might be lucky with your Anzio train as I have found a list of some K5 units somewhere, incomplete but there was quite a bit if I recall correctly. I’ll try and dig it out for you.

Merry Christmas to all of you!
/Stefan
SpeedyJ
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Bangkok, Thailand / ไทย
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Posted: Sunday, December 23, 2018 - 09:56 PM UTC
Hi Stef.
In my research for SSys and SSyms I found very good reference for the Pressblech Drehgestellen. But where can I find good reference for the measurements wagons. Specially the SSyms have my interest. Bogies for this SSyms are easy to replicate, but the inner framework under the platform, including the installation of brake system is very hard to find.
Maybe you have sources I don't know.
Keep up with the excellent build and have a good Christmas.

Kind regards,

Robert Jan
Dioramartin
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New South Wales, Australia
Joined: May 04, 2016
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Posted: Sunday, December 23, 2018 - 10:29 PM UTC
Strangely fascinating – dare I say riveting? No. Anyhow looking forward to progress in 2019, have a great Xmas
Jor-el
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Colorado, United States
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Posted: Monday, December 24, 2018 - 07:25 AM UTC
Stefan,
You are appreciated. You keep this up and you may qualify as a librarian

Carl
Blaubar
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Rheinland-Pfalz, Germany
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Posted: Friday, December 28, 2018 - 11:07 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Hi Stef.
In my research for SSys and SSyms I found very good reference for the Pressblech Drehgestellen. But where can I find good reference for the measurements wagons. Specially the SSyms have my interest. Bogies for this SSyms are easy to replicate, but the inner framework under the platform, including the installation of brake system is very hard to find.
Maybe you have sources I don't know.
Keep up with the excellent build and have a good Christmas.

Kind regards,

Robert Jan



Hi Robert Jan, send me a pm with your email. I will send you what I’ve got. Not sure if it is stuff you don’t already know. Hope you had a nice Christmas, mine was awesome and I hope everyone else’s also.
Tim and Carl, thanks, waiting for new rivets as of now....😂 and drawing and cutting a few more frame parts.

Have a happy new year, may you all be happy, successful and healthy in 2019!!!

Cheers and happy new year.

Some beautiful photos...
https://eisenbahnstiftung.de/bildergalerie/Reichsbahn%20im%20Krieg?search=&br=&page=1

And for all interested, our Facebook group with sources and in the future a file repository for railway modeling.
https://m.facebook.com/?_rdr#!/groups/483076225394624?multi_permalinks=817417675293809¬if_t=feedback_reaction_generic¬if_id=1546081005636578&ref=m_notif
Jor-el
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Colorado, United States
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Posted: Tuesday, February 05, 2019 - 04:24 PM UTC
Greetings Stefan,

I trust that after all your efforts here and elsewhere, that you've not given up on this build. I assume you are concentrating on Facebook instead of this and other websites. As I told you before, I have no internet presence, nor access to Facebook. I'd like to see your progress on here or another site if possible. I'll be watching.

Carl