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Armor/AFV: Axis - WWII
Armor and ground forces of the Axis forces during World War II.
Hosted by Darren Baker
BR 52 Kriegsdampflokomotive 1/35 Scratched
Jor-el
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Colorado, United States
Joined: June 29, 2008
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Armorama: 9 posts
Posted: Tuesday, February 05, 2019 - 04:24 PM UTC
Greetings Stefan,

I trust that after all your efforts here and elsewhere, that you've not given up on this build. I assume you are concentrating on Facebook instead of this and other websites. As I told you before, I have no internet presence, nor access to Facebook. I'd like to see your progress on here or another site if possible. I'll be watching.

Carl
Blaubar
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Rheinland-Pfalz, Germany
Joined: December 15, 2016
KitMaker: 261 posts
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Posted: Friday, December 28, 2018 - 11:07 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Hi Stef.
In my research for SSys and SSyms I found very good reference for the Pressblech Drehgestellen. But where can I find good reference for the measurements wagons. Specially the SSyms have my interest. Bogies for this SSyms are easy to replicate, but the inner framework under the platform, including the installation of brake system is very hard to find.
Maybe you have sources I don't know.
Keep up with the excellent build and have a good Christmas.

Kind regards,

Robert Jan



Hi Robert Jan, send me a pm with your email. I will send you what I’ve got. Not sure if it is stuff you don’t already know. Hope you had a nice Christmas, mine was awesome and I hope everyone else’s also.
Tim and Carl, thanks, waiting for new rivets as of now....😂 and drawing and cutting a few more frame parts.

Have a happy new year, may you all be happy, successful and healthy in 2019!!!

Cheers and happy new year.

Some beautiful photos...
https://eisenbahnstiftung.de/bildergalerie/Reichsbahn%20im%20Krieg?search=&br=&page=1

And for all interested, our Facebook group with sources and in the future a file repository for railway modeling.
https://m.facebook.com/?_rdr#!/groups/483076225394624?multi_permalinks=817417675293809¬if_t=feedback_reaction_generic¬if_id=1546081005636578&ref=m_notif
Jor-el
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Colorado, United States
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Posted: Monday, December 24, 2018 - 07:25 AM UTC
Stefan,
You are appreciated. You keep this up and you may qualify as a librarian

Carl
Dioramartin
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New South Wales, Australia
Joined: May 04, 2016
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Posted: Sunday, December 23, 2018 - 10:29 PM UTC
Strangely fascinating – dare I say riveting? No. Anyhow looking forward to progress in 2019, have a great Xmas
SpeedyJ
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Bangkok, Thailand / ไทย
Joined: September 17, 2013
KitMaker: 787 posts
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Posted: Sunday, December 23, 2018 - 09:56 PM UTC
Hi Stef.
In my research for SSys and SSyms I found very good reference for the Pressblech Drehgestellen. But where can I find good reference for the measurements wagons. Specially the SSyms have my interest. Bogies for this SSyms are easy to replicate, but the inner framework under the platform, including the installation of brake system is very hard to find.
Maybe you have sources I don't know.
Keep up with the excellent build and have a good Christmas.

Kind regards,

Robert Jan
Blaubar
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Rheinland-Pfalz, Germany
Joined: December 15, 2016
KitMaker: 261 posts
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Posted: Sunday, December 23, 2018 - 09:04 PM UTC
Carl,
I am trying to minimize the chances, but it is not possible to exclude it totally as that would be almost impossible.
You might be lucky with your Anzio train as I have found a list of some K5 units somewhere, incomplete but there was quite a bit if I recall correctly. I’ll try and dig it out for you.

Merry Christmas to all of you!
/Stefan
Jor-el
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Colorado, United States
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Posted: Sunday, December 23, 2018 - 06:38 AM UTC
Stefan;

Once again astounding presentation, not only of your work but of your thorough research as well.

"It might sound stupid, but the reason doing this is that I want to build a train that has not been involved in the transport of KZ prisoners, at least I want to do my best at avoiding it."

From the above statement can I assume you can account for where a particular locomotive was at a certain time? By that I mean, where a loco was assigned in a time period? I would like to find out the number of the engine that hauled the K-5 "ROBERT" to Anzio, if possible.

Thanks again for all your efforts.

Carl
Blaubar
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Rheinland-Pfalz, Germany
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Posted: Monday, December 17, 2018 - 09:00 AM UTC
Thanks Jerry and Robert. It's a fun thing and quite entertaining. I might as well share all the research for others interested. Maybe at some point a better BR52 model will be manufactured .

Michael, that is quite crazy, but impressive. I am scared of the tools needed for such an undertaking as your friend does. As to the lights, I will ask Steve for his stuff and how he handled it^^, I will try and copy it.

Hans-Hermann, sadly not. I know there is one picture with this weird smoke deflector, as of now I have not found it. But still got these books to go through thoroughly to find it, I think it was in one of them. But there are other wooden designs, so it is just a unique one. As there were quite a few variations, maybe Trumpeter chose this weird one because no one could criticize its measurements as no real data was available? No clue, it's strange either way.
Ohne Titel by Stefan, auf Flickr

Oh and here the comparison of Big ED Set and the Voyager ones:


And here are strange trials with improvised wooden versions:
*
*

Speaking of smoke deflectors, here is a nice one from 1943, where they had also strengthened the rim.
*

* Deutsche Reichsbahn 1939-1945 - A. Knipping / R. Schulz
165thspc
#0
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Kentucky, United States
Joined: April 13, 2011
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Posted: Monday, December 17, 2018 - 07:30 AM UTC
Was looking again at your work on shaping/cutting out the side frames for this loco and it reminded me; I have a buddy who scratch built a Southern Pacific 2-8-8-2 cab forward in HO - out of brass!

He milled the side frames using his Unimat as a vertical mill.

After seeing the model with all the lights are you not tempted to add these to your build?
HermannB
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Bayern, Germany
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Posted: Monday, December 17, 2018 - 04:23 AM UTC
Can we assume that the kit provided deflectors are a work of imagination? They look like Bauart Wagner but made of wood?
SpeedyJ
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Bangkok, Thailand / ไทย
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Posted: Monday, December 17, 2018 - 03:07 AM UTC
Research is just outstanding!
Like this very much.

Kind regards,

Robert Jan
jrutman
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Pennsylvania, United States
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Posted: Monday, December 17, 2018 - 02:40 AM UTC
I have been following this build for a long time and I can only say something with this much research and work must be a total labor of love!
J
Blaubar
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Rheinland-Pfalz, Germany
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KitMaker: 261 posts
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Posted: Monday, December 17, 2018 - 02:19 AM UTC

Quoted Text

The proof was probably determined by practical application rather than working it out mathematically.

Have the division locomotive shop make a set that was larger, try them on for size. (Literally) Then make a smaller set, try them. Try mounting them forward, then move them more to the rear. Ask which set worked best in which position?

Let the locomotive engineer decide which works the best.

Problem solved!

I'm guessing the mathematical proof came later.



Yeah uhm this will be a boring postt^^. Witte did wind tests and actually, the placement was figured out to be rather not important at all, as long as it was about within the height of the windows it was supposed to cover. A bit lower or higher up did not matter. Also the big plates (BR01, 03 50...) all kind of turned obsolete as the smaller Witte Bleche were just as effective, smaller, lighter and saved materials.Wittebleche reduced the pair's weight from around 1000kg to 200kg with better performance. By request 127 of the "Arbeitsuasschuss Konstruktion" of late 1942, it requested the use of the Witte variant and not the older and larger ones. (Then, they scrapped them in total to save more steel, but decided this was stupid and introduced them again later on)
For quite some time, Eastern Germany thinned down the plates so much that they needed strengthening rims around as the plate would bend or get damaged, the West kept them a bit thicker, simplifying production at the cost of more material usage.
Quite interesting how many shapes and designs they came up with... and that's just from 2 books I rushed through yesterday.








Regarding the tender, there are some interesting approaches regarding efficiency and such.

For example the K4T30 was cheaper (25,000RM vs 32,000RM) than all other Wannentender (K2'2'T26 and K'2'2'T30) and compared to the BR50's K2'2'T26 it also had a better GTI (specific tender weight -> empty weight of tender vs tons of load capacity) value of 623kg/t compared to the K2'2'T26 (750kg/t), but much worse than the K2'2'T30 of 467kg/t. Westwaggon's K2'2'T30 was the most common tender (4800 units) after all due to standardization and amongst others, running gear performance. The K4T30 (1100 units) was a gap filler as the already ordered and constructed 4T30 chassis (for the BR50) had to be used and were too expensive to scrap. As such they were modified and specifically tailored for the BR52, with a complete overhaul and redesign of the mountings. Without this, the BR52 output would have been very low in 1943 and much lower in early 44 as the Westwaggon were not readily available in large enough numbers at first.
In the end, the new Westwaggon design saved almost 50% in labour time and 31% in materials as compared to the basic BR50's K2'2'T26. The empty weight dropped form 25.5t to 18.7t, despite an increase in coal capacity of 2t and water of 4t.* / **

Prost Angel. Well, this is what makes our hobby so interesting I'd say, learning new stuff along the way

Thanks Carl, bookmarked for tonight.

Oh and a BR52 that is no BR52 as it has a wrong tender


* Geschichte der deutschen Kriegslokomotiven - Helmut Griebl / Hansjürgen Wenzel
** Deutsche Kriegslokomotiven 1939-1954 - Alfred B. Gottwald
Jor-el
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Colorado, United States
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Posted: Monday, December 17, 2018 - 01:51 AM UTC
Here is an interesting link on this subject: http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/13/t/267714.aspx

Carl
ayovtshev
#490
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Sofiya, Bulgaria
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Posted: Sunday, December 16, 2018 - 10:58 PM UTC
Not only a challenging scratchbuild here, but also a lot to learn-never asked myself earlier what (the heck) those wind panels on both sides of the loc were used for.

Well done Steff!

165thspc
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Posted: Sunday, December 16, 2018 - 10:35 PM UTC
The proof was probably determined by practical application rather than working it out mathematically.

Have the division locomotive shop make a set that was larger, try them on for size. (Literally) Then make a smaller set, try them. Try mounting them forward, then move them more to the rear. Ask which set worked best in which position?

Let the locomotive engineer decide which works the best.

Problem solved!

I'm guessing the mathematical proof came later.
Blaubar
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Rheinland-Pfalz, Germany
Joined: December 15, 2016
KitMaker: 261 posts
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Posted: Sunday, December 16, 2018 - 06:55 AM UTC
Exactly!

Well, there is the research by Witte, it was posted on a German forum years ago but the link is now dead. The link had all the research with regards to sizes, arrangements and so forth of the 30s. Stupid as I was, I had not downloaded the pdf.
There might be wind tests about it? I will ask the curators at the museums in Germany and contact Meiningen RAW, someone might know more. The maths regarding the placement would be interesting.
165thspc
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Posted: Sunday, December 16, 2018 - 06:45 AM UTC
I entirely see your point now - when the boiler front "splits" the airstream the lifters contain that airstream and an area of higher air pressure is created between the lifter and the side of the boiler.

As that increased air pressure disperses; up, down and to the rear, it blows the smoke up and the steam down keeping the engineer's vision clear.

I was incorrect in my thinking, in that the purpose of the lifter never was to increase the draw through the smoke stack, it was to improve vision.

If he wanted to increase the draw the engineer could always turn on the power blower to move more air through the firebox and up the stack!

That also answers another question I had as to why the lifters on the BR52 extend so far forward? On many US engines the lifter begins just slightly ahead of the front edge of the smokebox. The design used on the BR52 has to be much more efficient and functional.
Blaubar
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Rheinland-Pfalz, Germany
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Posted: Sunday, December 16, 2018 - 05:59 AM UTC
Michael,
Simplified speaking: by channeling and mildly compressing (creating an air cushion) the air on either side of the smoke box up front as it is “split” by the nose of the locomotive. They therefore prevent the steam from the cylinders and other parts of the lower engine to either go up and those of the chimney to go down and as such keep the view fairly free of smoke at higher speeds. It is not really that important at very low and lower speeds.
An engineer will be able to explain this in a more awesome and a bit more detailed with some maths n stuff😂
165thspc
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Posted: Sunday, December 16, 2018 - 05:31 AM UTC
Speaking of smoke lifters in general, I have always been at a loss to understand just how they might actually function in the first place.

Most lifters have at least a bit of a wing shaped contour but it would seem to me to be oriented 90 degrees off axis from anything that would actually function to "lift smoke" and therefore improve the draw on the firebox.

Then too I thought perhaps there might be wind vanes or tubes attached between the lifter panel and the boiler to catch incoming horizontal winds when running at speed and channel them upwards - but again no to that explanation????

So how does, what appears to be a nonfunctional airfoil, actually lift smoke?
Blaubar
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Rheinland-Pfalz, Germany
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Posted: Sunday, December 16, 2018 - 04:37 AM UTC
One of them.
I know that there were 3 designs during the war and a few more thereafter. Mostly to do with the edges and the framing style, no clue if the sizes differed, but that will be some interesting research for the future.
HermannB
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Bayern, Germany
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Posted: Sunday, December 16, 2018 - 02:43 AM UTC
According to a drawing in " Kriegslokomotive 52" by Helmut Skasa, the Witte Blech is 1700mm long and 950mm in height.
HermannB
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Bayern, Germany
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Posted: Sunday, December 16, 2018 - 02:32 AM UTC
Hi Stef,

this document

http://eisenbahnfreunde.transnet-ffo.de/Priewisch/Baureihe%2052/Index_52.html

might give you information about the size of the Witte Windleitbleche.
Blaubar
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Rheinland-Pfalz, Germany
Joined: December 15, 2016
KitMaker: 261 posts
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Posted: Sunday, December 16, 2018 - 02:13 AM UTC
Thanks to HHB,
He sent me the voyager smoke deflectors set and I began comparing it with Eduards... For now, the raw dimensions of the two. I have not done any research with regards to the smoke deflectors yet, so can’t comment on any kind of accuracy and type. Thad will be part of a separate post with an in-depth analysis.


https://www.flickr.com/photos/blaubar/32466532848/
Vertical dotted lines represent the smoke box mountings for the strouds.
Thanks again HHB!
/STEFAN
Blaubar
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Rheinland-Pfalz, Germany
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KitMaker: 261 posts
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Posted: Saturday, December 08, 2018 - 11:06 AM UTC
Hi all,
Minor progress with the frame and all the rivets, the first few hundred are there now.
I have begun adding the rivets to the rear of the first batch of rivets and have finished adding the rivets to the top of the frame support along with a few hex bolts.

Frame top rivets by Stefan

BR52 Frame rivets by Stefan

The top of the frame is almost done. It needs some more 1.2mm hex bolts and nuts, but all rivets are in place now.
BR52 Frame rivets by Stefan

I am waiting for the resupply from MasterClub, as I will run out of the 1.2mm rivets soon^^.

Hope you like it, have a good weekend modelling. The weather is awful here, so there should be some bench time tomorrow.
/Stefan