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Armor/AFV: IDF [Israeli Defense Forces]
Armor and AFVs of the IDF army from 1947-today.
Hosted by Darren Baker
Shot Kal Dalet Type II on Hobby Search
HermannB
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Bayern, Germany
Joined: October 14, 2008
KitMaker: 2,806 posts
Armorama: 2,780 posts
Posted: Monday, January 09, 2017 - 05:28 PM GMT+7
Anyone knows what the difference with the previous released Shot Kal Dalet model?
http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10441322
David1988
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England - East Anglia, United Kingdom
Joined: September 18, 2014
KitMaker: 88 posts
Armorama: 88 posts
Posted: Monday, January 09, 2017 - 06:42 PM GMT+7
There looks to be no battering ram on this one.
Gotrek58
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Nordrhein-Westfalen, Germany
Joined: January 11, 2009
KitMaker: 601 posts
Armorama: 254 posts
Posted: Monday, January 09, 2017 - 07:03 PM GMT+7
- metal gun barrel without thernal sleeve
- different cupola/hatch?
LAH1SS
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Australia
Joined: August 02, 2008
KitMaker: 229 posts
Armorama: 169 posts
Posted: Monday, January 09, 2017 - 08:30 PM GMT+7
Different ERA block configuration due to the mk 5 being up armoured on the glacis like the Aus Cents were........ Doesn't change the designation IDF simply referred to them as MK 3 or Mk 5

stephane
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Hauts-de-Seine, France
Joined: October 10, 2005
KitMaker: 342 posts
Armorama: 340 posts
Posted: Monday, January 09, 2017 - 09:31 PM GMT+7
Not the same based turret too.
I suggests you to go on Legend productions website they have two conversions for early AFV Club shot kal. The photos will show you the differencies between shot kal gimel and shot kal dalet.
Cantstopbuyingkits
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European Union
Joined: January 28, 2015
KitMaker: 1,873 posts
Armorama: 1,701 posts
Posted: Monday, January 09, 2017 - 10:27 PM GMT+7
But where is the Centurion Marks I-III?
ReluctantRenegade
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Wien, Austria
Joined: March 09, 2016
KitMaker: 953 posts
Armorama: 948 posts
Posted: Monday, January 09, 2017 - 10:37 PM GMT+7

Quoted Text

Not the same based turret too.
I suggests you to go on Legend productions website they have two conversions for early AFV Club shot kal. The photos will show you the differencies between shot kal gimel and shot kal dalet.



Yes, but the OP didn't ask about the difference between the Gimel and the Dalet, but rather about the difference between what seems to be two Dalet sub-versions.
Since the upgrade to Dalet started in the late '70's, I think this "Type II Operation Peace for Galilee 1982" is actually an early Dalet, while the other Dalet (with the battering ram) is resembling the ultimate Shot version towards the late '80's/early '90's. (according to the markings, this vehicle belongs to the 188th Brigade - the last regular Armored IDF Brigade equipped with Shot Dalets (decommissioned in 1992).
bison126
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Aube, France
Joined: June 10, 2004
KitMaker: 4,705 posts
Armorama: 4,581 posts
Posted: Monday, January 09, 2017 - 10:53 PM GMT+7
Here is what Michael Mass wrote on his FB page about this kit

"... Now, this new released Shot Cal (Shot-Cal with C, not K, as Cal is shortening for the Continental Motors engine), is another mismatch in the model and designation.
All Shot-Cal Dalet are with Thermal sleeve on the 105mm main gun. So if in this case, there is no Thermal Sleeve, it is a Shot-Cal Gimel.
There were 2 main version of the "Baltan" Blazer ERA on the Shot-Cal Gimel and Dalet:

1. Baltan on turret and hull on Centurion Mk. 3
ERA on Mk. 3 Centurion:
- On top of turret 4+4 tiles on both sides with a lifting ring in the center.
- On the hull upper front glacis there were two separate lines of tiles, 3+3 in the upper line with fire extinguisher port in the center, and 6 tiles in lower line.
- There was also a round welded (closed) hatch in the rear of the turret, typical to Mk. 3.

2. Baltan on turret and hull on Centurion Mk. 5
ERA on Mk. 5 Centurion:
- On top of turret 4+2 tiles on both sides with a lifting ring in the center. There is a periscope in the left, preventing the installation of an additional tile.
- On the hull upper front glacis there was only one combined line. There were two main in the right and 3 in the left with the fire extinguisher operating handles in the center. There were also two smaller tiles in the side, one on each side. There was no round welded (closed) hatch in the rear of the turret, typical to Mk. 3 only.

Both were considered as one version, and excluding the "Baltan" layout, we didn't really consider them as two different sub-versions."
ReluctantRenegade
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Wien, Austria
Joined: March 09, 2016
KitMaker: 953 posts
Armorama: 948 posts
Posted: Monday, January 09, 2017 - 11:11 PM GMT+7
Thanks Olivier, great info!
glock17c
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Jerusalem, Israel
Joined: May 16, 2007
KitMaker: 108 posts
Armorama: 105 posts
Posted: Tuesday, January 10, 2017 - 03:55 AM GMT+7
All AFV Club Shot-Cals seems to be nice and decent models.
Above all, it is a line of models we never had before.

Although people complain about their vynil "rubber" tires and the toy-like suspansion, the result is very good, and they arebest in town.

As I wrote in my FB post (see above), the main problem is not the models...it is the definition and invention of bizare names, when one do not know how to call the version.

Another issue is, that all Shot-Cals were based mainly on Mk.3 and Mk. 4 Centurions. There were also 16 pcs of Mk. 8 that had a different "Baltan" (Blazer), but they are the minority out of a fleet of almost 1100 Centurions served in the IDF in the late 70s till its end of service.

Regarding to the Baltan ERA tiles layout, the tiles were arranged differently on the upper turret glacis, or the upper hull glacis, of the Mk. 3 and Mk. 5.
The mistake in the latest so-called Shot-Cal Dalet (D version) is that the so-called 2nd type of hull tiles do not fit the tank version, and that the name Shot-Cal Dalet, CANNOT be used to a Shot-Cal w/o a thermal sleeve, and a Shot-Cal Dalet, was not in service in the "Peace for Galilee" operation in June 1982, simply because the FCS was not ready yet.
Here is a short summery, that I tried to draw on the AFV Club various 1/35 models:
Here it is Jamal"
35282 - Shot-Cal Gimel on Mk. 5
35277 - Shot-Cal Dalet on Mk. 3
35267 - Shot-Cal Gimel on Mk. 3
35122 - Shot-Cal Alef on Mk. 5
35159 - Shot on Mk. 5
35124 - don't have a propper pic.

And.. please use Shot-Cal, and NOT Shot-Kal. Cal stands for a shorten Continental (the AVDS17902AC 750hp ENGINE).

Visit also here in my FB page:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/deserteagle.publishing/
SabIngaMartin
Joined: September 24, 2007
KitMaker: 171 posts
Armorama: 169 posts
Posted: Tuesday, January 10, 2017 - 05:34 AM GMT+7
Hi all
As I was heavily involved with the development of the original first two IDF Centurion kits by AFV (thus SabIngaMartin Publication Logo on their boxes), I can say the following things:
1) AFV Centurion kits are great, however although the team in AFV work well and implemented most of my suggestions, they ignore several times suggestions that I made to make the kits even better (Mantlet cover, full plastic wheels option, different types of turrets and hull stowage boxes and etc).
2) They also cut corners with the names, to make them more marketable (like Centurion 1967 name!!!!!) that I don't agree with but again it was not so much under my control.
3) Since I stop to work with them they introduce the Shot Kal “Gimel” and “Daled”, that based on the “Shot Kal Alef” that I helped them design with some minor additions of ERA blocks and etc. They are accurate in general but have some funny mistakes that are result of lack of info or understanding (for example placing ERA block over the loaders periscope, funny).
4) This new Shot Kal again has wrong name and probably again because of marketing attempt, it looks to me as “Gimel” and for sure it is not “Daled” since it lacks the late type barrel without thermal sleeve as well as wrong time frame (in 1982 First Lebanon War the Centurions that been operated were A, Beth and Gimels).
5) For more info look in my 3 books on Israeli Centurions by SabIngaMartin Publications: Vol 1 on first and early types of Israeli Centurions; Vol 3 on “Shot Kal Alef” and Vol 7 on “Shot Kal Gimel”.

There is no need to add additional mistakes to names.
The use of “Kal” is not wrong BUT the right one in the case of the Shot tanks. Anyone that know very well and from inside the history of Centurion tanks in IDF as well know Hebrew writing rules will agree with that, while ones that don't know such things will suggest the opposite.
To add to that use of Cal is also possible, but the right name and proffered one in English should be KAL!!!!! (will explain more if needed).
The same thing regarding the use of Magach 1 and 2, it is NOT wrong as suggested in the facebook.
I suggest the person that claims that the use of Magach 1 and 2 is wrong, to take a look on some official IDF documents from the late 60’s to find out that indeed IDF use the names Magach 1 for M48A1 tanks and Magach 2 for M48A2C tanks in its service and after upgraded both of them with 105 mm gun and diesel engines, tanks that got the name Magach 3. For full info of early Magach tanks in IDF service you can find in the books by SabIngaMartin:
1) Magach Tanks of the IDF, Magach 1 & 2
2) Magach Tanks of the IDF, Volume 2 - Magach 2 and 3 Tanks of the Six-Day War
Hope this helps
Robert Manasherob

Dr. Robert Manasherob
www.SabIngaMartin.com
https://www.facebook.com/SabIngaMartin-Publications-993784533998080/