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Armor/AFV: AA/AT/Artillery
For discussions about artillery and anti-aircraft or anti-tank guns.
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8" hpwiter rounds: powder bags?
bill_c
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Posted: Monday, June 19, 2017 - 07:19 AM GMT+7
I am working on a fire base for the AFV Club 8" Howitzer, and want to have sufficient ammunition. The 203mm Howitzer Rounds & Cases set has 203mm ammo and decals! But what's in the cases? Powder bags? I assume the rounds were just projectiles that required propellant, but maybe someone can come up with a photo or two? Frenchy?
trickymissfit
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Posted: Monday, June 19, 2017 - 07:32 AM GMT+7

Quoted Text

I am working on a fire base for the AFV Club 8" Howitzer, and want to have sufficient ammunition. The 203mm Howitzer Rounds & Cases set has 203mm ammo and decals! But what's in the cases? Powder bags? I assume the rounds were just projectiles that required propellant, but maybe someone can come up with a photo or two? Frenchy?



Eight inch stuff is very similar to 155mm stuff in concept & style. The powder is stored in the metal tubes, and the promo's are shipped on a pallet like the 155. Fuses are shipped in a container that is similar to a 50 ammo can. Unlike the 155, there will be about twelve to eighteen rounds fused up. They just don't shoot them real fast.
Gary
bill_c
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Posted: Monday, June 19, 2017 - 08:04 AM GMT+7

Quoted Text

The powder is stored in the metal tubes....


Thanks, Gary, but which metal tubes? Are those the "cases" in that set?

trickymissfit
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Posted: Monday, June 19, 2017 - 10:02 AM GMT+7

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

The powder is stored in the metal tubes....


Thanks, Gary, but which metal tubes? Are those the "cases" in that set?




The tubes are similar for the 155mm and the eight inch. The shorter and fatter tube is for white bag. Also the most commonly used powder. The longer, but smaller diameter tube is green bag. I never shot green bag out of a M110, just white bag. Both are probably OK to use, but your goto is white bag.
Leave the tubes closed up. Things are a little different between the towed guns and the spg.
Gary
KurtLaughlin
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Posted: Monday, June 19, 2017 - 11:38 AM GMT+7

Quoted Text

I am working on a fire base for the AFV Club 8" Howitzer, and want to have sufficient ammunition. The 203mm Howitzer Rounds & Cases set has 203mm ammo and decals! But what's in the cases? Powder bags? I assume the rounds were just projectiles that required propellant, but maybe someone can come up with a photo or two? Frenchy?



What time frame are you modeling?

KL
bill_c
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Posted: Monday, June 19, 2017 - 01:28 PM GMT+7

Quoted Text

What time frame are you modeling?


Sorry, WW2, possibly around the time of Bastogne.
trickymissfit
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Posted: Monday, June 19, 2017 - 03:05 PM GMT+7

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

What time frame are you modeling?


Sorry, WW2, possibly around the time of Bastogne.



Data I supplied may or may not work. I have shot 1944 powder and projectiles, but were in the metal tubes. What they used I cannot verify.

Looking at the photo, the short fat tube is white bag. The longer tube is green bag. The pallets containing eight rounds are eight inch.
Hope this helps
Gary
KurtLaughlin
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Posted: Monday, June 19, 2017 - 03:17 PM GMT+7

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

What time frame are you modeling?


Sorry, WW2, possibly around the time of Bastogne.



OK, in WW II the cans ("cartridge storage cases" at the time) had a different closure mechanism than that set. Similar, but not the same. The green bag cases were 26-3/8 x 8-1/8 diameter. Green bag charges were 21 inches long and 6-1/2 in diameter. The white bag cases were 29-3/8 x 9-1/2 diameter. White bag charges were 24 inches long and 7-3/4 inches in diameter. I would measure the ammo set parts as I think it is a mixed 155mm and 8-inch set.

The charges looked like this:




Also, at that time palletization of projectiles was exceedingly rare. I have only seen it used between factories and larger ammunition supply points or depots. The problem was that field units had no way to handle something that heavy (a pallet of six 8-inch rounds weighed over 1,200 pounds). Projectiles were most frequently handled individually. Also, rather than the protective "grommet" over the driving bands older WW II rounds used a hoop of rope to act as a bumper.

The markings in that set are postwar, IIRC. WW II projectiles and cases should have a five character code, like P2EAB. After ~1955 it was changed to a four character code like D580. (I think they even got the postwar markings wrong.) Finally, in WW II the ammunition would be marked "8H" or "8 HOW". I don't think 8-inch ammunition was ever marked "203".

KL
trickymissfit
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Posted: Tuesday, June 20, 2017 - 06:51 AM GMT+7

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Quoted Text

What time frame are you modeling?


Sorry, WW2, possibly around the time of Bastogne.



OK, in WW II the cans ("cartridge storage cases" at the time) had a different closure mechanism than that set. Similar, but not the same. The green bag cases were 26-3/8 x 8-1/8 diameter. Green bag charges were 21 inches long and 6-1/2 in diameter. The white bag cases were 29-3/8 x 9-1/2 diameter. White bag charges were 24 inches long and 7-3/4 inches in diameter. I would measure the ammo set parts as I think it is a mixed 155mm and 8-inch set.

The charges looked like this:




Also, at that time palletization of projectiles was exceedingly rare. I have only seen it used between factories and larger ammunition supply points or depots. The problem was that field units had no way to handle something that heavy (a pallet of six 8-inch rounds weighed over 1,200 pounds). Projectiles were most frequently handled individually. Also, rather than the protective "grommet" over the driving bands older WW II rounds used a hoop of rope to act as a bumper.

The markings in that set are postwar, IIRC. WW II projectiles and cases should have a five character code, like P2EAB. After ~1955 it was changed to a four character code like D580. (I think they even got the postwar markings wrong.) Fin

ally, in WW II the ammunition would be marked "8H" or "8 HOW". I don't think 8-inch ammunition was ever marked "203".

KL



When you look at a powder charge, you look at the type and lot number. The lot number never changes over the years. The shipping tube might or might not. Same can be stated for the projo's.

I've watched many a bunch of kids simply roll the rounds right off the back of a truck. Pallets are simply broken on the truck bed. Still there are a couple types you never do that to. Just HE.
Gary
bill_c
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Posted: Tuesday, June 20, 2017 - 09:10 AM GMT+7
Well, it looks like the sets I purchased are post-war, so I will have to reconsider the fire base.

But I thank you guys profusely for preventing me from making a YUGE mistake and using postwar stuff. I will have to think about making the gun towed instead. Thanks again, I really mean it. What a great place this is.
sgtreef
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Posted: Tuesday, June 20, 2017 - 09:20 AM GMT+7
I am doing one in the Nam era.
And yes those AFV club rounds are for Nam and beyond.
Doing the M-115 are you? I did one many moons ago a great kit.
Can't wait to see what you do with it.
One thing is this if the AFV Club one I would say the small metal deals are for the 155 MM rounds, if not well not then.
Gino will know also.


Cheers



Jeff
KurtLaughlin
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Posted: Tuesday, June 20, 2017 - 11:13 AM GMT+7

Quoted Text

When you look at a powder charge, you look at the type and lot number. The lot number never changes over the years. The shipping tube might or might not. Same can be stated for the projo's.



I wasn't talking about the lot number but the Ammunition Identification Code (WW II) and DOD Ammunition Code (1955+).

AIC R2BLA


DODAC D544



Quoted Text

I've watched many a bunch of kids simply roll the rounds right off the back of a truck. Pallets are simply broken on the truck bed.



He's looking at a scene 25 years earlier. Ordnance ammunition supply units then didn't have any way to put a pallet on a truck either.

KL
trickymissfit
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Posted: Tuesday, June 20, 2017 - 01:41 PM GMT+7

Quoted Text

Well, it looks like the sets I purchased are post-war, so I will have to reconsider the fire base.

But I thank you guys profusely for preventing me from making a YUGE mistake and using postwar stuff. I will have to think about making the gun towed instead. Thanks again, I really mean it. What a great place this is.



Actually might work for Korea. Shot a lot of Korean War ammo, and looks just the same as Vietnam.
Harry
bill_c
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Posted: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 - 01:03 AM GMT+7

Quoted Text

Actually might work for Korea. Shot a lot of Korean War ammo, and looks just the same as Vietnam.
Harry


Thanks, Harry, that might work!
trickymissfit
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Posted: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 - 08:47 AM GMT+7

Quoted Text

I am doing one in the Nam era.
And yes those AFV club rounds are for Nam and beyond.
Doing the M-115 are you? I did one many moons ago a great kit.
Can't wait to see what you do with it.
One thing is this if the AFV Club one I would say the small metal deals are for the 155 MM rounds, if not well not then.
Gino will know also.


Cheers




Jeff



Actually the powder tubes from 44 were identical. As I said before, it's the lot numbers they go by. Might also note the colors are way off in the photos. Green is just slightly darker than sea foam green, and the white bags are an ivory color. Both still have the red ignitor pad on the first charge.

Gary
trickymissfit
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Posted: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 - 08:51 AM GMT+7

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Actually might work for Korea. Shot a lot of Korean War ammo, and looks just the same as Vietnam.
Harry


Thanks, Harry, that might work!



A WWII howitzer used regular truck tires most of the time. While Korea used the military tread pattern. If your doing a diorama, don't forget to dig in the spades. Otherwise the gunner is going for a ride.
Gary
KurtLaughlin
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Posted: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 - 12:03 PM GMT+7

Quoted Text

Actually the powder tubes from 44 were identical. As I said before, it's the lot numbers they go by.



That's incorrect.

> Lot numbers are used to keep track of the manufacturing and performance of the ammunition. It can tell who made it and when. For a particular fire mission a weapon would want all of the components to be of a single lot - projectiles from same lot, powder from same lot, fuzes from same lot, primer from same lot. This minimizes ballistic variation and simplifies the calculation of firing data. It has nothing to do with logistics, which is what the AIC and DODAC do. Those numbers provide a simple method of identifying a type of ammunition.

A battery may want to draw each day's ammunition from the same lot they used yesterday. Once that has run out they go to another lot, recalculate the data, and run with that number. If a 155mm howitzer runs out of D544 ammunition, it no longer has anything to shoot.

Another distinction: In an ammo dump, there may be 500 green bag 155H powder charges with a particular lot number, 500 with a second, 250 with a third, 100 with a fourth and 23 with a fifth. All will work in the 155H. All 1,373 charges will have the same AIC/DODAC though, indicating exactly what they are but not who made them or when they were made.

> The WW II and postwar cans had different closure designs, as I said. This is a WW II can.

Note the J-notches cut into the rim.

This is a postwar can.



The mouth has three indented areas with J-notches in them, keeping the rim continuous.

KL
KurtLaughlin
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Posted: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 - 12:23 PM GMT+7

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Actually might work for Korea. Shot a lot of Korean War ammo, and looks just the same as Vietnam.
Harry


Thanks, Harry, that might work!



Well, Korea was practically fought with WW II weapons and ammunition. The changes in markings, container design, and nose plug design - as in the AFV set - were post-Korea.

You could use most of the AFV set for a WW II or Korea model if you do a little tweaking of details and source appropriate markings.

KL
trickymissfit
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Posted: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 - 02:43 PM GMT+7

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Actually the powder tubes from 44 were identical. As I said before, it's the lot numbers they go by.



That's incorrect.

> Lot numbers are used to keep track of the manufacturing and performance of the ammunition. It can tell who made it and when. For a particular fire mission a weapon would want all of the components to be of a single lot - projectiles from same lot, powder from same lot, fuzes from same lot, primer from same lot. This minimizes ballistic variation and simplifies the calculation of firing data. It has nothing to do with logistics, which is what the AIC and DODAC do. Those numbers provide a simple method of identifying a type of ammunition.

A battery may want to draw each day's ammunition from the same lot they used yesterday. Once that has run out they go to another lot, recalculate the data, and run with that number. If a 155mm howitzer runs out of D544 ammunition, it no longer has anything to shoot.

Another distinction: In an ammo dump, there may be 500 green bag 155H powder charges with a particular lot number, 500 with a second, 250 with a third, 100 with a fourth and 23 with a fifth. All will work in the 155H. All 1,373 charges will have the same AIC/DODAC though, indicating exactly what they are but not who made them or when they were made.

> The WW II and postwar cans had different closure designs, as I said. This is a WW II can.

Note the J-notches cut into the rim.

This is a postwar can.



The mouth has three indented areas with J-notches in them, keeping the rim continuous.

KL


A simple question. How many rounds have you shot thru an eight inch? I have a couple hundred under my belt, plus another hundred fifty or more out of a 175gun. Add to that, several thousand rounds thru various 155's and ,105's.
Gary
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Posted: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 - 02:58 PM GMT+7

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Actually the powder tubes from 44 were identical. As I said before, it's the lot numbers they go by.



That's incorrect.

> Lot numbers are used to keep track of the manufacturing and performance of the ammunition. It can tell who made it and when. For a particular fire mission a weapon would want all of the components to be of a single lot - projectiles from same lot, powder from same lot, fuzes from same lot, primer from same lot. This minimizes ballistic variation and simplifies the calculation of firing data. It has nothing to do with logistics, which is what the AIC and DODAC do. Those numbers provide a simple method of identifying a type of ammunition.

A battery may want to draw each day's ammunition from the same lot they used yesterday. Once that has run out they go to another lot, recalculate the data, and run with that number. If a 155mm howitzer runs out of D544 ammunition, it no longer has anything to shoot.

Another distinction: In an ammo dump, there may be 500 green bag 155H powder charges with a particular lot number, 500 with a second, 250 with a third, 100 with a fourth and 23 with a fifth. All will work in the 155H. All 1,373 charges will have the same AIC/DODAC though, indicating exactly what they are but not who made them or when they were made.

> The WW II and postwar cans had different closure designs, as I said. This is a WW II can.

Note the J-notches cut into the rim.

This is a postwar can.



The mouth has three indented areas with J-notches in them, keeping the rim continuous.

KL


A simple question. How many rounds have you shot thru an eight inch? I have a couple hundred under my belt, plus another hundred fifty or more out of a 175gun. Add to that, several thousand rounds thru various 155's and ,105's.
Gary



Gary, he is correct Lot numbers change
KurtLaughlin
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Posted: Thursday, June 22, 2017 - 03:38 AM GMT+7

Quoted Text

A simple question. How many rounds have you shot thru an eight inch? I have a couple hundred under my belt, plus another hundred fifty or more out of a 175gun. Add to that, several thousand rounds thru various 155's and ,105's.
Gary



Zero. Which I'm guessing is also the exact number of rounds you shot against the Germans during the Battle of the Bulge. So what? I've never been to the Moon either, but I know I can't breathe there.

Can you not accept that things might have been different a quarter century before you were in the service? The guy was asking about the suitability of the AFV Club ammo for a model set in 1944. It isn't suitable. The AFV Club set depicts postwar ammunition so it isn't right for the 1940's. Why do you keep insisting it's OK for WW II based on your experiences 25 years later? You are not helping the guy.

KL

trickymissfit
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Posted: Thursday, June 22, 2017 - 07:13 AM GMT+7

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Actually the powder tubes from 44 were identical. As I said before, it's the lot numbers they go by.



That's incorrect.

> Lot numbers are used to keep track of the manufacturing and performance of the ammunition. It can tell who made it and when. For a particular fire mission a weapon would want all of the components to be of a single lot - projectiles from same lot, powder from same lot, fuzes from same lot, primer from same lot. This minimizes ballistic variation and simplifies the calculation of firing data. It has nothing to do with logistics, which is what the AIC and DODAC do. Those numbers provide a simple method of identifying a type of ammunition.

A battery may want to draw each day's ammunition from the same lot they used yesterday. Once that has run out they go to another lot, recalculate the data, and run with that number. If a 155mm howitzer runs out of D544 ammunition, it no longer has anything to shoot.

Another distinction: In an ammo dump, there may be 500 green bag 155H powder charges with a particular lot number, 500 with a second, 250 with a third, 100 with a fourth and 23 with a fifth. All will work in the 155H. All 1,373 charges will have the same AIC/DODAC though, indicating exactly what they are but not who made them or when they were made.

> The WW II and postwar cans had different closure designs, as I said. This is a WW II can.

Note the J-notches cut into the rim.

This is a postwar can.



The mouth has three indented areas with J-notches in them, keeping the rim continuous.

KL


A simple question. How many rounds have you shot thru an eight inch? I have a couple hundred under my belt, plus another hundred fifty or more out of a 175gun. Add to that, several thousand rounds thru various 155's and ,105's.
Gary



Gary, he is correct Lot numbers change



Not saying you all are right, and not saying I'm right. All I'm saying is my unit shot the ammo dump out in Frisco in 68. A lot of the ammo was pre Korean War, and the tubes were not close to being new. Paint had been on there awhile. Yet still carried the 1944 thru 1947 dates. Plus for what reason would you change the lot numbers?

Now a 175 is going to have recent lot numbers, but an eight inch might go back in time. Folks shooting monitor lot numbers for an accuracy thing. FDC seriously monitors them. You often check different lots when registering a base piece. On the other hand
You mix lot numbers all the time for generic shooting ( not danger close to friendlies). Only time you separate projo lots is for contact fire, but you often check the weight variations when adjusting into friendlies. With an eight inch, it's not as critical due to their inherent accuracy from shot to shot.
Gary
trickymissfit
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Posted: Thursday, June 22, 2017 - 07:31 AM GMT+7

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

A simple question. How many rounds have you shot thru an eight inch? I have a couple hundred under my belt, plus another hundred fifty or more out of a 175gun. Add to that, several thousand rounds thru various 155's and ,105's.
Gary



Zero. Which I'm guessing is also the exact number of rounds you shot against the Germans during the Battle of the Bulge. So what? I've never been to the Moon either, but I know I can't breathe there.

Can you not accept that things might have been different a quarter century before you were in the service? The guy was asking about the suitability of the AFV Club ammo for a model set in 1944. It isn't suitable. The AFV Club set depicts postwar ammunition so it isn't right for the 1940's. Why do you keep insisting it's OK for WW II based on your experiences 25 years later? You are not helping the guy.

KL




Kurt,

I admit I was a little course with you, and apologize. All I'm trying to say is that I've shot powder dated 1944, and the tubes were very similar to sixties stuff. There was one small variation in the end cap. At Sill, I spent a couple weeks on the M110. Most ammo was Korean era stuff. Sure looked the part to me. But! We never saw palleted rounds, and powder did come in metal tubes like the photos.

Is it possible that the Pentagon returned all powder? Yes, but what a mess that would have been! Still I've seen Korean era projo's on brand new pallets out of Frisco. I can see that happening.

And while on the subject. WWII rounds are slightly different from sixties stuff. were e is a white nylon ring inside the driving band. I never saw any fuses that were older than four or five years, so figure old ones were destroyed.
Gary