Armor/AFV: Allied - WWII
Armor and ground forces of the Allied forces during World War II.
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Takom M3 Grant
Bravo1102
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Posted: Monday, October 16, 2017 - 02:40 PM UTC
Fire control system calibration. There's a lot to balancing a gun in a combination mount. If you stabilize a gun sometimes you have to off set balances and tolerances that were unforeseen in the design that only come up by putting the eye to the sight and squeezing the trigger.

Even a modern mount like in an M60 series tank has spots for weights to offset imbalance. Ever see a tank that no matter how you bore sighted it it couldn't hit a target because the gun and sights weren't calibrated properly? Ever calibrate the FCS in a tank?

That stuff. So sticking a pipe on the bottom of the gun to correct imbalance can actually work just the same as a couple of fishing weights on the back of a 105mm.

And is a 10 degree angle is discernible from a front 3/4 view? Or under a pile of baggage? The angle is only on the center of the rear over the exhaust. On a Lee and Grant the rear to the sponson was the same on all variants. So you can't tell from any other angle than directly to the rear or precisely from the side without any hull rear storage. The South African Grant OP tanks were photographed from those angles so you can see they're Grant II with Grant turrets and diesel engines, anything else? Guess your best. With 300 tanks shipped they must have shown up some place as replacement tanks. And there is one clear photo of one in North Africa in combat.

And why am I replying to this? Use your imagination and stop being so pedantic. I have stuff to go off and create rather than debate angels on the heads of pins.
KurtLaughlin
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Posted: Monday, October 16, 2017 - 03:46 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Fire control system calibration. There's a lot to balancing a gun in a combination mount. If you stabilize a gun sometimes you have to off set balances and tolerances that were unforeseen in the design that only come up by putting the eye to the sight and squeezing the trigger.

Even a modern mount like in an M60 series tank has spots for weights to offset imbalance. Ever see a tank that no matter how you bore sighted it it couldn't hit a target because the gun and sights weren't calibrated properly? Ever calibrate the FCS in a tank?

That stuff. So sticking a pipe on the bottom of the gun to correct imbalance can actually work just the same as a couple of fishing weights on the back of a 105mm.

And is a 10 degree angle is discernible from a front 3/4 view? Or under a pile of baggage? The angle is only on the center of the rear over the exhaust. On a Lee and Grant the rear to the sponson was the same on all variants. So you can't tell from any other angle than directly to the rear or precisely from the side without any hull rear storage. The South African Grant OP tanks were photographed from those angles so you can see they're Grant II with Grant turrets and diesel engines, anything else? Guess your best. With 300 tanks shipped they must have shown up some place as replacement tanks. And there is one clear photo of one in North Africa in combat.

And why am I replying to this? Use your imagination and stop being so pedantic. I have stuff to go off and create rather than debate angels on the heads of pins.



You do realize that people besides me have commented on the counterweights and diesel hull angles, don't you?

If so, do you realize that while you may not find anything interesting beyond outward appearances and broad generalizations, other people may be interested in the details, the whys and whens?

And you might want to consider that while you may have calibrated a control system, other people may have designed or built them, and understand quite well the principles of the system and how they go from lines on paper into metal and electronics.

KL
Das_Abteilung
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Posted: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 - 05:12 AM UTC
Damn good modelling! But it's a real shame that such a long-awaited kit still has such failings. 3 attempts - 5 if you include Monogram and Airfix 1/32 - and still not a really good one.

Looking through a photograph scrapbook in the Warwickshire Yeomanry museum a couple of months back I spotted a rear-on view of a diesel Grant serving with the regiment some time pre-Alamein, by which time they had all M4's. The deeper upper hull rear plate is unmistakable in a rear view. I read somewhere in the past that at least some diesel Grants in the desert had a red D painted on the rear plate, but I can't find the reference and I've never seen any evidence. But as noted above, rear views are rare.

By diesel here I mean the GM 6046 twin diesel, which necessitated the enlarged engine compartment. There were also a few Grants with the Guiberson radial diesel because of petrol engine shortages, which fitted in the same space as the petrol radials and AFAIK were externally identical. Perhaps it was these that sported the red D to avoid confusion. T24053 and T24061 were apparently radial diesel Grants - and one might assume also the numbers between 53 and 61
KurtLaughlin
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Posted: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 - 06:06 AM UTC

Quoted Text

T24053 and T24061 were apparently radial diesel Grants - and one might assume also the numbers between 53 and 61



Baldwin only made diesel Grants that month and the next (June and July 1942) so all Grants from T-23957 to T-24188 were diesels.

KL
27-1025
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Posted: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 - 06:28 AM UTC
Some might enjoy this timely walk around of the subject tank.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_p7eJr0grTc
27-1025
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Posted: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 - 06:32 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Some might enjoy this timely walk around of the subject tank.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_p7eJr0grTc



Well I stand corrected. This is new to me, disregard if you've already seen this
gastec
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Posted: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 - 11:47 AM UTC
Tools fitted along with lead sheet for straps with PE buckles. Also added some chains for the fuel flap pins....





Gary
GazzaS
#424
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Posted: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 - 11:49 AM UTC
Excellent!
ericadeane
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Posted: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 - 05:22 PM UTC
Gary Boxall: I've always appreciated your attention to detail. Your pics will keep me motivated as I get into my M3. May I make an observation? Your FF .30cal barrels seem to be jutting out a tiny bit too much, when I look at your pictures, as compared to pics of the real thing. Maybe look at pictures and see if they need adjustment?
Removed by original poster on 10/23/17 - 14:29:53 (GMT).
gastec
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Posted: Saturday, October 21, 2017 - 01:25 PM UTC
Managed to remove the .30 cal barrels without any damage, re-drill the holes, and recess them futher back....



Added some stowage to the rear....





.30 cal tripod mounted on alternative bracket....



Gary
JSSVIII
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Posted: Saturday, October 21, 2017 - 03:10 PM UTC
Really fine work Gary!
gastec
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Posted: Sunday, October 22, 2017 - 12:44 PM UTC
Thanks John.

Primer time. I usually use the grey Tamiya primer - thought I'd give white a go this time...



Not only does primer give a good base for the main colours - especially when you use PE, it can also show up any imperfections. Like this...



Fortunately an easy fix with a little filler.







Had to touch up a couple of areas - especially where the panels join, but otherwise happy with the result. Next step will be the camo colours.

Gary
GazzaS
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Posted: Sunday, October 22, 2017 - 01:06 PM UTC
Looks great!
gastec
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Posted: Sunday, October 22, 2017 - 01:22 PM UTC
Thanks. Noticed a few issues from the photos that escaped the naked eye!!!
Hederstierna
#247
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Posted: Sunday, October 22, 2017 - 02:56 PM UTC
So far it looks excellent. I really look forward to see it painted.
Jacob
Das_Abteilung
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Posted: Sunday, October 22, 2017 - 04:37 PM UTC
Apologies if any of this is not new or is covered in the walkaround posted above, but it seems that every time I look at the Bovington Grant I find something new.

Unfortunately some of the pics I took on my phone in haste after I'd packed my camera away didn't come out. Those would have shown better the hooking of the sprocket teeth and that the objects fitted in the hull gun bays on the kit are external plugs. While there may be an internal rotor, it doesn't protrude to the exterior.

The Mack data plate eluded me again as it's too shallow to catch the light. But I did manage to sketch the layout. Here's an attempt at making a facsimile. It's not far off, except that the cut corners are slightly concave on the real thing. The unit is serial no 7 from 1941: I knew this was a very early Grant. I don't know who Mack made powertrains for - I'm sure someone like Kurt does. I surmise they would NOT have made them for Chrysler, who AFAIK were the only assembly plant who could build the complete vehicle, including engines later.


I noticed 2 other oddites too. The lower run of rivet heads on the angled left front plate look like domed screw heads, with a slot. There is also a series of small drilled holes down both sides and across the curved top edge of the 75mm mount, presumably for attaching the canvas dust shield.


Das_Abteilung
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Posted: Sunday, October 22, 2017 - 04:41 PM UTC
BTW, where do you guys get your information on vehicle serial numbers - such as the T numbers allocated to Grant Diesels in a reply above? In other posts here and elsewhere I've seen people identify trucks and other vehicles just from their serial number.
165thspc
#521
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Posted: Sunday, October 22, 2017 - 06:12 PM UTC
Fantastic work - Gary you are really selling this kit to the rest of us. Hard to resist following in your fine footsteps! Well done.
165thspc
#521
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Posted: Sunday, October 22, 2017 - 06:21 PM UTC
Regarding those small drilled holes around the main gun: As you say they are to attach the snaps that would retain the canvas cover around the mantlet of the gun. They were just stamped sheet metal and over the years would have rusted away.

As to those slotted screws rather than rivets: Clearly the sloping armor in that area precluded the riveter's back man from getting into that lower corner on the inside of the tank to support the hot rivet as it was pounded home. They had no choice but to switch to using screws in this area.


A short You Tube video on hot riveting:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRk4MtK4as4
KurtLaughlin
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Posted: Sunday, October 22, 2017 - 09:17 PM UTC

Quoted Text

BTW, where do you guys get your information on vehicle serial numbers - such as the T numbers allocated to Grant Diesels in a reply above? In other posts here and elsewhere I've seen people identify trucks and other vehicles just from their serial number.



Through research. Typically it's by combining a number of bits of data (I've never seen a complete list):

- total production data
- production by contract
- acceptances by month and by contract
- lists of registrations
- list of serials
- documents pairing registrations and serials
- photographs of vehicles with known registrations
- knowledge of how things were done practically and administratively

You sort this all out to see what you have and what is missing. Often it's a matter of extrapolating and checking it by comparing it to other data. Even then, there are a lot of unknowns.

KL
gastec
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Posted: Sunday, October 22, 2017 - 11:58 PM UTC
Some excellent information. Would love to add the Mack plate but think the letterinv would be a little challenging. Hopefully the likes of Voyager, Aber or ET could do one?
As for the canvas clips - good call and easy to add at this stage.
Gary
Nahuel19431
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Posted: Monday, October 23, 2017 - 04:58 AM UTC
Excelent Job, good advances
Omar
Bravo1102
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Posted: Monday, October 23, 2017 - 12:05 PM UTC
There was a listing online by vehicle type of all allocations of W/D numbers for the British and Canadian army. It would provide the numbers the tanks actually wore in service.

I remember it because a gamer had me do a custom decal sheet of w/D numbers for his collections so he could have masses of vehicles with proper numbers by type even if not completely accurate at least they were real numbers. This was about 10 years ago?
gastec
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Posted: Monday, October 23, 2017 - 12:50 PM UTC
Canvas cover 'snaps' added....



Photos hopefully tomorrow, but managed to get the camo colours on tonight along with decals and a filter (productive evening!!!).

Gary