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M41A3 In Detroit Riots?
long_tom
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Posted: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 - 04:32 AM UTC
I swear I saw a brief clip of an M41 tank driving through Detroit in the recent movie abo0ut the 1967 Detroit riots. Does anyone know more?
gastec
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Posted: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 - 05:42 AM UTC
Google 'Detriot riots' and images show a few M41s and M113.

Gary
KurtLaughlin
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Posted: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 - 06:01 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I swear I saw a brief clip of an M41 tank driving through Detroit in the recent movie abo0ut the 1967 Detroit riots. Does anyone know more?



Yes, in fact I made a model of it that appeared in one of those "Great Scale Modeling" specials from FSM.

KL
HeavyArty
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Posted: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 - 08:02 AM UTC
Like these...




M48A1s too.


Some context:
The 1967 Detroit riot, also known as the 12th Street riot or the 1967 Detroit rebellion, was one of 159 race riots that swept cities in the United States during the "Long Hot Summer of 1967". It began in the early morning hours of Sunday July 23, 1967. The precipitating event was a police raid of an unlicensed, after-hours bar then known as a blind pig. Police confrontations with patrons and observers on the street evolved into one of the deadliest and most destructive riots in the history of the United States, lasting five days.

To help end the disturbance, Governor George W. Romney ordered the Michigan Army National Guard into Detroit, and President Lyndon B. Johnson sent in both the 82nd and 101st Airborne Divisions. The result was 43 dead, 1,189 injured, over 7,200 arrests, and more than 2,000 buildings destroyed.
KurtLaughlin
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Posted: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 - 04:33 PM UTC
The M48s may have been from 1968, during the riots after the murder of Dr. King.

KL
Vierville
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Gauteng, South Africa
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Posted: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 - 04:35 PM UTC
Jeez...sending in the Screaming Eagles and the 82nd airborne for riots...that's some serious crowd control!
Bravo1102
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Posted: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 - 05:58 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Jeez...sending in the Screaming Eagles and the 82nd airborne for riots...that's some serious crowd control!



Eisenhower used them for crowd control to enforce school integration.

159 riots also included Newark which were also extremely serious and saw the deployment of the NJ National Guard to include M16A1 Anti aircraft halftracks which were used for anti sniper building sweeps (see Guardlife magazine preserved in Alexander Library Rutgers University)

M48A1 and M41 and M113 were all deployed. Battalion Master Gunner told stories about it. Came out of basic with M14 rifle and given an M1 rifle and bayonet and WW2 web gear. He had no idea how to load it.
d6mst0
#453
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Posted: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 - 06:51 PM UTC
I grew up in southwest Detroit next to the neighborhood in Detroit were the riots started in 1967. Remember the sirens from the fire department and police along with gun shots and lots of smoke from the fires. Neighbors sitting on the front porches with guns and rifles. Cars full of men with guns and rifles sticking out the windows patrolling the neighborhood. All gas stations were closed. The first day curfew started at dusk to dawn. The army didn't arrive until the third or fourth day but when the did the riots ended very quickly. I can remember some general getting on the TV and radio and saying curfew starts at 5pm and anyone on the on the streets would be shot or arrested. At 5pm there was a lot of gun fire for about 20 minutes followed by intermitted shots after that. In the morning the same general announced the riots were over but the city still under military control. The 82nd bivouac at Clark Park and Patton Park in southwest Detroit. I and my buddies rode our bicycles right though their camp and they would yell at us and throwing stuff. It was a lot of fun. They even set up a machine gun nest at the telephone exchange on the next block over. Of course all of the kids had to check it out and they were real friendly and even showed us how the (I believe) 30cal was loaded and operated. Of course the didn't fire it but we sure tried to talk them into it. To finish up, my dad was missing from the first day the riot started until six or seven days later. Turns out that no one at the factory were he worked night shift knew of the curfew and he was arrested while walking home. The cops dropped him off on Belle Isle on the Detroit river. They were bringing all of the thousands of curfew violators there and letting them roam around the island for six days handling out sandwiches once in a while. Then they just released them all when the general announced the riot was over. Dad had to walk the six miles back home. We were real happy to see him.
Tojo72
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Posted: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 - 06:56 PM UTC
I lived in Newark NJ in 1967,was only 9,I seem to remember National Guard Tanks being around,they used they schools stadium as their staging area.I was able to find APC pics,but no tanks,so i'm not sure,but was cool but scary for a little kid to see that equiment on the streets.
Bravo1102
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Posted: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 - 07:48 PM UTC
You also can dig through the morgue of the Star Ledger newspaper. A fellow guardsmen showed me a clipping of the M16A1 halftrack back in the day. I also heard the tanks had no main gun ammo but had machine gun ammo.

There are Guard units in Newark, elements of the 113th infantry. The tanks may have come from Woodbridge.

Woodbridge historical society has pictures of Guard M47 and M41 tanks parading in the 1950s.
Frenchy
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Posted: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 - 08:46 PM UTC
150 period pics :

http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/index.ssf/2017/07/150_historic_photos_from_the_d.html

including these :





H.P.
ivanhoe6
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Posted: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 - 09:47 PM UTC
My Father was a Sgt. in the Michigan National Guard during the riots. He and his squad were assigned to protect firemen from snipers taking pot shots at them. Imagine that, shooting at firemen who are trying to save your neighborhood !
He did have a funny story about a carload of looters stopping and leaving some beer for the firefighters. At least somebody appreciated their brave efforts.
A sad moment in US history.
jstarn
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Posted: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 - 10:49 PM UTC
I was in Vietnam with the 1st Cav in 1967. I remember we joked about being recalled to Detroit.
Robbd01
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Posted: Wednesday, November 22, 2017 - 12:34 AM UTC
Wow... of all places a modeling sight that this subject would come up. I was there, well sort of. I was ten. We lived in the suburbs (Birmingham, Farmington area). My dad was so concerned it was going to spread out of the city he even allowed me to sit on the roof with my .22 cal rifle (my squirrel gun) and watch for trouble. Throughout the riots I do remember seeing military vehicles driving around though no tanks. Imagine a ten year old waiting for what today would be best described as the zombie apocalypse horde coming down the street(mind of a ten year old). BTW the same perch on the roof of the house doubled as a tornado watch, less the rifle

A few years later when my dad would take me down to the Squadron Shop, you could still see all the burned out buildings. I could see why my dad was concerned. But that was then...

Cheers


long_tom
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Posted: Wednesday, November 22, 2017 - 01:13 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Wow... of all places a modeling sight that this subject would come up. I was there, well sort of. I was ten. We lived in the suburbs (Birmingham, Farmington area). My dad was so concerned it was going to spread out of the city he even allowed me to sit on the roof with my .22 cal rifle (my squirrel gun) and watch for trouble. Throughout the riots I do remember seeing military vehicles driving around though no tanks. Imagine a ten year old waiting for what today would be best described as the zombie apocalypse horde coming down the street(mind of a ten year old). BTW the same perch on the roof of the house doubled as a tornado watch, less the rifle

A few years later when my dad would take me down to the Squadron Shop, you could still see all the burned out buildings. I could see why my dad was concerned. But that was then...

Cheers




Shouldn't be altogether surprising, not all our soldiers were in Vietnam in the 1960's. I was reminded of my Squadron book about the M41 tanks, and these were the only times the M41 could be said to be in action in US military service (outside of show of force deployments, exercises, etc.) There were enough riots and other violent incidents in that era so US forces outside of Vietnam would certainly have been engaged.
easyco69
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Posted: Wednesday, November 22, 2017 - 01:26 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Wow... of all places a modeling sight that this subject would come up. I was there, well sort of. I was ten. We lived in the suburbs (Birmingham, Farmington area). My dad was so concerned it was going to spread out of the city he even allowed me to sit on the roof with my .22 cal rifle (my squirrel gun) and watch for trouble. Throughout the riots I do remember seeing military vehicles driving around though no tanks. Imagine a ten year old waiting for what today would be best described as the zombie apocalypse horde coming down the street(mind of a ten year old). BTW the same perch on the roof of the house doubled as a tornado watch, less the rifle

A few years later when my dad would take me down to the Squadron Shop, you could still see all the burned out buildings. I could see why my dad was concerned. But that was then...

Cheers




Shouldn't be altogether surprising, not all our soldiers were in Vietnam in the 1960's. I was reminded of my Squadron book about the M41 tanks, and these were the only times the M41 could be said to be in action in US military service (outside of show of force deployments, exercises, etc.) There were enough riots and other violent incidents in that era so US forces outside of Vietnam would certainly have been engaged.


Didn't they use M41's at the East German stand off in 61'? They stood head to head with big Russian T -55's? I may be wrong...can anyone confirm? Just curious..
HeavyArty
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Posted: Wednesday, November 22, 2017 - 02:34 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Didn't they use M41's at the East German stand off in 61'? They stood head to head with big Russian T -55's? I may be wrong...can anyone confirm? Just curious..



No, they were Berlin BDE M48A1s.

trickymissfit
Joined: October 03, 2007
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Posted: Wednesday, November 22, 2017 - 02:47 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Jeez...sending in the Screaming Eagles and the 82nd airborne for riots...that's some serious crowd control!



When I was at Campbell, the units left for Detroit. I remember them leaving (think it was a full regiment of light infantry fresh out of Vietnam). They were not gone all that long, and the main issue was snipers on roof tops shooting at anything moving. They never spoke of tanks being there, but did use many M113's (not the ACAV version). I remember them saying that the 50 cal. shooting at the roof tops was the only thing that really worked.

Almost felt sorry for the rioters, when they brought those guys in (from the 101st). The guys from the 82nd had not been deployed yet, but would be in March or April of 68.
gary
WXerock
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Posted: Wednesday, November 22, 2017 - 03:17 AM UTC
Similarly, I volunteered to deploy to New Orleans post Katrina. I am in the California Air National Gurd. We deployed with about 200 people in my unit's KC-135s. We carried M16A0s but had ammo we couldn't use because it was for the A2. We patrolled for two weeks in and around the airport in NO. The 82 AB came a week later. Because of the restrictions on active duty in the US, the 82 could only carry ammo for their sidearm. They all wanted to see our M16s because they were brand new from the crate and had very low 00 serial numbers. I heard later they were turned in for destruction because it would cost too much to convert them to A2 standard. Our armorers put safety restrictors on them so we could only fire them on semi after a few days. That was a tense couple of weeks. The people of NO who had lost everything wanted out and they were given one way rides to any city who would take them. There weren't any riots but the people were tested every day. Disorganization ran rampant. It was an experience I'll never forget.

Regards,

Eric

Edit: I forgot the whole reason I started writing this! The airport was covered with every sort of military equipment, except for those with tracks. I was able to get a few photos. Mostly LMTVs and HMMWVs but there were a few quads. Most of the equipment arrived by air. There was also a constant stream of helicopters in four approach lanes constantly bringing rescues in. I saw almost every type that could carry a stretcher being used. There were a lot of Navy birds, CH-46s and CH-53s. At one point as a -53 was landing the downwash blew stacks of stretchers hundreds of feet across the airport. Aircrew were telling us they had to sweep ammo that was left behind out of their birds by people who were told not to take firearms into the airport. I've often thought some of this would make for interesting dioramas.
knewton
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Posted: Wednesday, November 22, 2017 - 04:19 AM UTC
This really interests me as a subject to study, and maybe model. Are there any good written histories on this. I did see there is a movie pending release, but Id like a little more than Hollywood depth.

Thank you,

Kylie
U-mark
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Michigan, United States
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Posted: Wednesday, November 22, 2017 - 04:29 AM UTC
I lived in Northeast Detroit in 1967. We were quite far from 12th and Hastings and only saw the occasional jeep or 5 ton truck. There has been a story floating around here ( I still live in the area and work in Detroit) since 67'of a tank dislodging a sniper from the second floor of an apartment building by putting a round into it, don't know if it's true or not, maybe someone has some more info on that. Going a little off topic, the Tigers and Yankees actually played a double header the Sunday the riot started. Mickey Lolich pitched the first game (Yankees won) left the ballpark,went home and found himself back in Detroit 2 days later when his Guard unit was called up.
U-mark
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Posted: Wednesday, November 22, 2017 - 04:47 AM UTC
Kylie, A couple books you might want to check out are, The Algiers Motel Incident by John Hershey and The Detroit Riot of 67 by Hubert Locke. This past July was the 50th anniversary of the riot and both the Detroit News And Detroit Free Press did multiple articles on the subject. You can find those by doing a web search. Hope that helped. Mark
KurtLaughlin
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Posted: Wednesday, November 22, 2017 - 07:16 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I still live in the area and work in Detroit) since 67'of a tank dislodging a sniper from the second floor of an apartment building by putting a round into it, don't know if it's true or not . . .



Not. No cannons were fired. After the 1968 series of riots there was a presidential commission created to study the unrest. I guess there had been calls to use tank guns, heavy MGs, artillery, and even flamethrowers (!?!) by various law enforcement agencies, but the commission calmly analyzed the incidents and showed that heavy weapons were unnecessary and flat out rejected the use of such things in domestic law enforcement.

KL
knewton
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Posted: Wednesday, November 22, 2017 - 11:56 AM UTC
Thanks, U-mark; I’ve ordered The Algiers Motel Incident by John Hershey from the local library.

Kylie
AgentG
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Posted: Wednesday, November 22, 2017 - 01:18 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Similarly, I volunteered to deploy to New Orleans post Katrina. I am in the California Air National Gurd. We deployed with about 200 people in my unit's KC-135s. We carried M16A0s but had ammo we couldn't use because it was for the A2. We patrolled for two weeks in and around the airport in NO. The 82 AB came a week later. Because of the restrictions on active duty in the US, the 82 could only carry ammo for their sidearm. They all wanted to see our M16s because they were brand new from the crate and had very low 00 serial numbers. I heard later they were turned in for destruction because it would cost too much to convert them to A2 standard. Our armorers put safety restrictors on them so we could only fire them on semi after a few days. That was a tense couple of weeks. The people of NO who had lost everything wanted out and they were given one way rides to any city who would take them. There weren't any riots but the people were tested every day. Disorganization ran rampant. It was an experience I'll never forget.

Regards,

Eric

Edit: I forgot the whole reason I started writing this! The airport was covered with every sort of military equipment, except for those with tracks. I was able to get a few photos. Mostly LMTVs and HMMWVs but there were a few quads. Most of the equipment arrived by air. There was also a constant stream of helicopters in four approach lanes constantly bringing rescues in. I saw almost every type that could carry a stretcher being used. There were a lot of Navy birds, CH-46s and CH-53s. At one point as a -53 was landing the downwash blew stacks of stretchers hundreds of feet across the airport. Aircrew were telling us they had to sweep ammo that was left behind out of their birds by people who were told not to take firearms into the airport. I've often thought some of this would make for interesting dioramas.



The M16 has used the same 5.56mm caliber cartridge since it's adoption. An M16 or M16A1, A2 or M4 all use the same magazines and ammo.

G
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