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Armor/AFV: Modern - USA
Modern Armor, AFVs, and Support vehicles.
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M41A3 In Detroit Riots?
Removed by original poster on 11/23/17 - 08:51:25 (GMT).
WXerock
#450
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California, United States
Joined: July 19, 2015
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Posted: Wednesday, November 22, 2017 - 01:47 PM UTC
Wayne, the M16 used a different twist to the barrel and used ammo that was optimized for the twist. I am only passing on info our combat arms people told us afterwards. I think the original one used a 1 in 14 twist with four grooves while the newer weapons our CE folks carried used a 1 in 7 twist with six grooves. A2 ammo would tumble out of the barrel. It had nothing to do with what we were told at the time we were given the ammo. The mistake was actually caught after we came home.

Regards,

Eric
Tank1812
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Posted: Wednesday, November 22, 2017 - 04:22 PM UTC

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I still live in the area and work in Detroit) since 67'of a tank dislodging a sniper from the second floor of an apartment building by putting a round into it, don't know if it's true or not . . .



Not. No cannons were fired. After the 1968 series of riots there was a presidential commission created to study the unrest. I guess there had been calls to use tank guns, heavy MGs, artillery, and even flamethrowers (!?!) by various law enforcement agencies, but the commission calmly analyzed the incidents and showed that heavy weapons were unnecessary and flat out rejected the use of such things in domestic law enforcement.

KL



Correct no tank rounds, but Sgt LeBlanc did put a burst of .50 cal though the window killing Tonya Blanding.
salt6
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Oklahoma, United States
Joined: February 17, 2002
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Posted: Thursday, November 23, 2017 - 01:44 AM UTC
A2 uses a 62 gr bullet where the earlier versions use a 55gr bullet
trickymissfit
Joined: October 03, 2007
KitMaker: 1,388 posts
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Posted: Thursday, November 23, 2017 - 06:12 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Wayne, the M16 used a different twist to the barrel and used ammo that was optimized for the twist. I am only passing on info our combat arms people told us afterwards. I think the original one used a 1 in 14 twist with four grooves while the newer weapons our CE folks carried used a 1 in 7 twist with six grooves. A2 ammo would tumble out of the barrel. It had nothing to do with what we were told at the time we were given the ammo. The mistake was actually caught after we came home.

Regards,

Eric



I was issued one of the early M16's in 1967. It came with the slow twist (I've heard 1:13 and 1:14 rate of twist). The bullet weighed 52 or 53 grains, and was pure hard ball. The flash suppressor was three pronged. No forward assist. everything was parkerized or iron oxide finished. Otherwise they looked similar to the other M16's. My M16 was so old that it had AR15 cast into the outside of the receiver.

The gun was called a "hummer"! It would shoot so fast that it sounded like it was buzzing. In March 68 they came out and installed a heavier spring in place of the OEM spring. A week later they installed a heavy buffer with the same spring. Shot slightly slower (I never had a problem with the first one). Two or three weeks later they replaced the entire upper receiver with all chrome plated parts (internal) including the barrel. New guys got forward assist guns, but we didn't.

Now they use a heavy bullet and a faster twist rate in the M16 platform.
gary
chazman
Joined: October 24, 2005
KitMaker: 88 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, November 29, 2017 - 07:19 AM UTC

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Similarly, I volunteered to deploy to New Orleans post Katrina. I am in the California Air National Gurd. We deployed with about 200 people in my unit's KC-135s. We carried M16A0s but had ammo we couldn't use because it was for the A2. We patrolled for two weeks in and around the airport in NO. The 82 AB came a week later. Because of the restrictions on active duty in the US, the 82 could only carry ammo for their sidearm. They all wanted to see our M16s because they were brand new from the crate and had very low 00 serial numbers. I heard later they were turned in for destruction because it would cost too much to convert them to A2 standard. Our armorers put safety restrictors on them so we could only fire them on semi after a few days. That was a tense couple of weeks. The people of NO who had lost everything wanted out and they were given one way rides to any city who would take them. There weren't any riots but the people were tested every day. Disorganization ran rampant. It was an experience I'll never forget.

Regards,

Eric




Love to see pics if you have them!
AgentG
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Posted: Wednesday, November 29, 2017 - 09:28 PM UTC
Regardless of bullet weight, it is still the same 5.56 x 45 cartridge. It could be fired in any weapon chambered for it.

Accuracy now, well that's "subjective".

G
Frenchy
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Posted: Wednesday, November 29, 2017 - 11:39 PM UTC
Talking about Katrina, here's a dio idea :



Sorry for the digression, Tom


H.P.
chazman
Joined: October 24, 2005
KitMaker: 88 posts
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Posted: Saturday, December 02, 2017 - 01:23 AM UTC

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Regardless of bullet weight, it is still the same 5.56 x 45 cartridge. It could be fired in any weapon chambered for it.

Accuracy now, well that's "subjective".

G



I believe that the later 5.56 ammo designed to be fired from the M-16A2 and M-16A4 is also a more powerful round. Although an M-16 or M-16A1 can fire it, the round is a bit too robust for them, shortening weapon's life and reliability. In general you don't want to use the later more powerful rounds in an M-16A1 if you can help it. That's probably why the armorers modded Eric's unit's M-16A1s to fire only semi-auto.

As an aside, my neighbor who recently got out of the USMC, said they were using early 5.56 ammo for training in their M-16A4's as recently as 2 or 3 years ago.
trickymissfit
Joined: October 03, 2007
KitMaker: 1,388 posts
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Posted: Saturday, December 02, 2017 - 07:08 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Regardless of bullet weight, it is still the same 5.56 x 45 cartridge. It could be fired in any weapon chambered for it.

Accuracy now, well that's "subjective".

G



I believe that the later 5.56 ammo designed to be fired from the M-16A2 and M-16A4 is also a more powerful round. Although an M-16 or M-16A1 can fire it, the round is a bit too robust for them, shortening weapon's life and reliability. In general you don't want to use the later more powerful rounds in an M-16A1 if you can help it. That's probably why the armorers modded Eric's unit's M-16A1s to fire only semi-auto.

As an aside, my neighbor who recently got out of the USMC, said they were using early 5.56 ammo for training in their M-16A4's as recently as 2 or 3 years ago.



the 5.56 is virtually the same round as the commercial .223, but is loaded at a higher chamber pressure. The spec is either 60K psi or 62K psi, but they are actually loaded at 58K psi. Doesn't matter which bullet, they still do the same pressures. It's a combat round and not much more by design, yet by design it made an excellent hunting round (remember the .223 case evolved out of the .222 Remington. The .222 is known as one of the most accurate rounds ever produced). If you punch holes in paper, it' a good 500 yard round. Holds all military records under 600 yards. Yet in combat, it's really no more than a 350 yard weapon at best. No power at those ranges. I've shot people at 300 yards with one, and about all you do is make them mad! Three rounds gets the job done, but never one. Still you couldn't begin to do that with an AK47. On the battlefield, 90% of all KIA's shot are under 100 yards (70% under 60 yards), so you really don't need that kinda range anyway. Yet on the battlefield; artillery takes 85% of the total KIA's. Airstrikes compile another 10%, and the rest are infantry and accidents.
gary
amoz02t
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Kentucky, United States
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Posted: Saturday, December 02, 2017 - 08:26 AM UTC

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A2 uses a 62 gr bullet where the earlier versions use a 55gr bullet



Yes. With the barrel twist on my AR I get best results with 77 grain .223 Very hard to find stuff though
knewton
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New Zealand
Joined: June 19, 2013
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Posted: Monday, December 18, 2017 - 07:47 AM UTC
So I read “The Algiers Motel Incident” by John Hershey; what an amazing story, but sheds no light on tank deployment in the riots.

H.P., there is also a photo of an MH 60 Pavehawk landed in water in a suburban street if you’re looking for inspiration.

Kylie
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