login   |    register
Armor/AFV: IDF [Israeli Defense Forces]
Armor and AFVs of the IDF army from 1947-today.
Hosted by Darren Baker
Miniart Tiran 4 errors..
gloucesternige
Visit this Community
England - South West, United Kingdom
Joined: January 13, 2012
KitMaker: 307 posts
Armorama: 283 posts
Posted: Thursday, March 01, 2018 - 05:21 AM UTC
Hi everyone..

I have just delved into the Miniart Tiran 4 with interior. It is a beautiful kit with a wealth of detail at a very reasonable price, but I'm only at step one in the build and have already found errors in the instructions. I aim to post the errors here as I go, so it can be a reference for other builders of this very new kit.

The "Not used" parts are many, and I always like to remove these from the sprues before starting so I can ditch empty sprues as and when they're empty. well, on the first page of the instructions during engine construction you will need three of the "Not used" parts.. "Here we go" I thought.. this could be the start of a long and painful exercise? The parts in question are on sprue Gf and are no's 20 and two off 21.

Another error comes in the shape of the instructions telling you to remove 1.5mm from the end of the intake manifolds.. parts Ab18 and 19.. well, don't do it, you need the 1.5mm to fit the airbox. Luckily I sawed mine apart very neatly so was able to glue the cut off part back on..

There are some errors in the colour call outs as well.. I need confirmation on the actual interior colours used on the Tiran 4/T-55 as Miniart are calling a sky grey colour for the hull interior which is surely wrong?

I will post more related info as I go through the kit.
jasegreene
Visit this Community
Florida, United States
Joined: October 21, 2013
KitMaker: 660 posts
Armorama: 660 posts
Posted: Thursday, March 01, 2018 - 07:48 AM UTC
Thanks for the heads up on this.Planning on ordering one these in the next couple of days so this info will be of great wealth to me.
Das_Abteilung
Visit this Community
United Kingdom
Joined: August 31, 2010
KitMaker: 317 posts
Armorama: 303 posts
Posted: Thursday, March 01, 2018 - 05:53 PM UTC
Seconded. I was planning to get their early 4 and late 4Sh once both are available, although not the interior versions.

And probably the early 4Sh as currently released to do an SLA version. 4Sh with the D-10T gun were rare in IDF service as the gun was one of the first things to be changed. Tirans 4 and 5 often got the 105mm gun before the full Sh upgrade. SLA never had any 105mm Tirans.

Those parts must be common to their other T-54/55 kits, and I don't recall seeing the same errors identified there, which is odd.

Very good prices on MiniArt products can be had directly from stores in Ukraine, accepting the import tax risk. I've used Hobby.dn.ua many times and found them completely reliable. Look at currency options: paying in UAH is far cheaper than EUR if you'e in the UK at current GBP exchange rates.
Kharkov
Visit this Community
England - East Midlands, United Kingdom
Joined: April 09, 2011
KitMaker: 872 posts
Armorama: 866 posts
Posted: Thursday, March 01, 2018 - 08:24 PM UTC

Quoted Text

I need confirmation on the actual interior colours used on the Tiran 4/T-55 as Miniart are calling a sky grey colour for the hull interior which is surely wrong?



Interior pictures for T-54/55 generally tend to show a range of white, creamy white and light gray/gray blue for the interior, with the gun breech painted green, now whether or not Israel/IDF repainted the interiors on their Tiran 4/5 conversions I do not know, I've never seen any interior pictures for a Tiran.

I very much doubt that they would bother to repaint the interiors, but they might have done.


Matt
gloucesternige
Visit this Community
England - South West, United Kingdom
Joined: January 13, 2012
KitMaker: 307 posts
Armorama: 283 posts
Posted: Thursday, March 01, 2018 - 09:31 PM UTC
Thanks for the heads up Matt.. like you, I very much doubt they would have repainted them.

Peter.. You actually get three beautifully slide moulded one piece barrels in the kit, two are for the spares box. Check out the sprue shots at miniart.com

Glad to be of service Jason, I'm sure there will be more little errors but hey.. who cares when you have such a beautiful package at such a great price?
ReluctantRenegade
Visit this Community
Wien, Austria
Joined: March 09, 2016
KitMaker: 1,806 posts
Armorama: 1,801 posts
Posted: Friday, March 02, 2018 - 02:46 PM UTC

Quoted Text

I very much doubt that they would bother to repaint the interiors, but they might have done.



I actually think there's a very good chance that the extensive makeover some Tirans underwent (i.e. guns swapped out) did include repainting the interior in standard IDF glossy white. I hopped into an SLA Tiran when I was based in South Lebanon some 20 years ago, but unfortunately I can't remember the interior color...

MikeKeenan
Visit this Community
Kildare, Ireland
Joined: February 20, 2008
KitMaker: 48 posts
Armorama: 42 posts
Posted: Friday, March 02, 2018 - 02:50 PM UTC
There is a nice walk-around of an Uruguayan Tiran 5 on the web, there is only a few photos of the interior, but they are painted white.

Link to walk-around
http://www.ipmsuruguay.com/ipms/index.php?option=com_phocagallery&view=category&id=70:tiran-5-ejercito-nacional&Itemid=23
GTDeath13
#481
Visit this Community
Attica, Greece / Ελλάδα
Joined: June 12, 2015
KitMaker: 761 posts
Armorama: 759 posts
Posted: Friday, March 02, 2018 - 02:57 PM UTC

Quoted Text

There is a nice walk-around of an Uruguayan Tiran 5 on the web, there is only a few photos of the interior, but they are painted white.

Link to walk-around
http://www.ipmsuruguay.com/ipms/index.php?option=com_phocagallery&view=category&id=70:tiran-5-ejercito-nacional&Itemid=23



Oh this is a treasure. I had been searching for such a walkaround, since the Uruguayan tanks have the mounting points for the Baltan blocks on them. Many thanks!!

Also many thanks to Nigel for sharing his experience with the kit. An easy way to see if the instructions are missing something is to compare them with the instructions of the kit the modification is based on. In this case with a kit of the T54 with full interior. This way you get a good idea of what was the original and what parts changed.
Das_Abteilung
Visit this Community
United Kingdom
Joined: August 31, 2010
KitMaker: 317 posts
Armorama: 303 posts
Posted: Friday, March 02, 2018 - 04:25 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Peter.. You actually get three beautifully slide moulded one piece barrels in the kit, two are for the spares box. Check out the sprue shots at miniart.com



I must admit I didn't notice the extra barrels when I looked. I was more interested in whether you got spider wheels too. I want my early 4 to have these, and the original D-10 gun. But I intend to get a T-54B to do an open-top SLA APC with starfish. This kit has both wheels so problem solved.

So with the 3 barrels this kit could also make a 4Sh late, the only difference AFAIK being the 105mm M68 gun. By leaving bits off you could also make the basic 4 early and late versions. One kit does all, unless you want spider wheels. But separate kits of these versions are planned by MiniArt: 4 different Tiran 4 kits, each with and without interior - 8 in all.

Because my Tiran projects have passed through several base kits without ever getting built (Skif, Esci, Tamiya) I have various metal D-10, D-10T and M68 barrels already. Despite slide-moulding there will still be annoying mould lines to eradicate without leaving little flats, especially troublesome around the fume extractor can on the M68.
gloucesternige
Visit this Community
England - South West, United Kingdom
Joined: January 13, 2012
KitMaker: 307 posts
Armorama: 283 posts
Posted: Friday, March 02, 2018 - 06:26 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

I very much doubt that they would bother to repaint the interiors, but they might have done.



I actually think there's a very good chance that the extensive makeover some Tirans underwent (i.e. guns swapped out) did include repainting the interior in standard IDF glossy white. I hopped into an SLA Tiran when I was based in South Lebanon some 20 years ago, but unfortunately I can't remember the interior color...




Thank you so much for this great pic Israel. So very valuable!!I hadn't realised the Israeli's were so thorough with "rebuilding" the tanks.
gloucesternige
Visit this Community
England - South West, United Kingdom
Joined: January 13, 2012
KitMaker: 307 posts
Armorama: 283 posts
Posted: Friday, March 02, 2018 - 06:31 PM UTC
I have come across anotherbit of advice that might come in useful for builders of this kit..

At step 9 you will fix the cast torsion bar mounts into the hull bottom. There are beautifully moulded weld seams everywhere, but be careful of flash where these hubs mount, also note that the hubs need to sit 0.66mm proud of the hull base where they slot into the hull sides.
Nagmakava
Visit this Community
England - East Anglia, United Kingdom
Joined: October 18, 2012
KitMaker: 116 posts
Armorama: 110 posts
Posted: Saturday, March 03, 2018 - 01:19 AM UTC
Thanks for putting this together Nigel. I’m just waiting for mine to arrive so appreciate this guide.
gloucesternige
Visit this Community
England - South West, United Kingdom
Joined: January 13, 2012
KitMaker: 307 posts
Armorama: 283 posts
Posted: Saturday, March 03, 2018 - 01:51 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Thanks for putting this together Nigel. I’m just waiting for mine to arrive so appreciate this guide.



You're welcome sir. I can see me burning out in this kit mind you, I've spent hours on it and am no further forward than I would be getting the lower hull of a Tamiya T-55 out of the box



Another discovery... the suspension arms fit inside the pivots like the proverbial pointy thing into a standard top hat!! I think I'll need to make up some plastic sleeves and fix the arms in position as I don't think the plastic torsion bars will support the weight of the kit? They're quite brittle!!
gloucesternige
Visit this Community
England - South West, United Kingdom
Joined: January 13, 2012
KitMaker: 307 posts
Armorama: 283 posts
Posted: Saturday, March 03, 2018 - 06:53 PM UTC

Quoted Text



Those parts must be common to their other T-54/55 kits, and I don't recall seeing the same errors identified there, which is odd.



There seems to be a lot of parts which are exclusive to each variant, even different pedal assemblies, which would lead one to think Miniart have done their research?

I have discovered the error on the swinging arm location issue.. The pivot parts for the hull floor are different between kits, with the other versions using split two piece parts whereas 8 out of 10 are one piece on the Tiran 4. The two off split items fit the swinging arms perfectly!!
gloucesternige
Visit this Community
England - South West, United Kingdom
Joined: January 13, 2012
KitMaker: 307 posts
Armorama: 283 posts
Posted: Saturday, March 03, 2018 - 07:02 PM UTC
OK guys, I have found some more instruction errors on this beautiful kit..

Sprue B has part 8 marked as not required, it is needed in step 14.

Sprue Ba has part 13 marked as not required, again it is required in step 19.

Sprue Jb. Parts 12 and 9 are not required for the Tiran 4.

There are drilling requirements in steps 15, 16, 18 and 19. I can confirm the holes miniart tell you to drill here are all correct.
varanusk
Staff MemberManaging Editor
ARMORAMA
Visit this Community
Santa Cruz de Tenerife, Spain / España
Joined: July 04, 2013
KitMaker: 877 posts
Armorama: 624 posts
Posted: Sunday, March 04, 2018 - 02:56 PM UTC

Quoted Text

I'm sure there will be more little errors but hey.. who cares when you have such a beautiful package at such a great price?



Great way of thinking, instead of complaining it is crap in a box and how can they make such mistakes, you point and fix them, plus share it here for other modellers.

I take my hat off to you!
gloucesternige
Visit this Community
England - South West, United Kingdom
Joined: January 13, 2012
KitMaker: 307 posts
Armorama: 283 posts
Posted: Monday, March 05, 2018 - 01:43 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

I'm sure there will be more little errors but hey.. who cares when you have such a beautiful package at such a great price?



Great way of thinking, instead of complaining it is crap in a box and how can they make such mistakes, you point and fix them, plus share it here for other modellers.

I take my hat off to you!



Why thank you. I could never complain about this beautiful kit, but I do hope Miniart are watching to see where they can perfect their kit?
glock17c
Visit this Community
Jerusalem, Israel
Joined: May 16, 2007
KitMaker: 132 posts
Armorama: 129 posts
Posted: Monday, March 05, 2018 - 04:36 PM UTC
A few clarifications, dear friends
1. As far as definitions and names, the additional SH or beter 'Sharir', is only for 105mm Tirans. Tiran 4 Sharir, or Tiran 5 Sharir.
2. This configuration of the Tiran with the air recognition boxes, and 100mm gun never took service with the IDF. Those are retrofitted Tirans with the installation of the old 100mm guns.
3. Yes, the interior was painte white in the entire fighting and engine compartments.
4. Spider road wheels could be found in service, but not so common.
5. The gun was NOT M68 (the US version) but only a 105 L7 barrel connected to the 100mm original breech and recoil mechanism. The only change in the breech was the installation of the electrical firing pin, and the added manual generating mech.

All in all I LOVE the little details in the mini-art T series with all these tiny fine and to-the-scale parts, the welding seams, the perfect matching between parts and sub-assemblies, and the so many options to do a "different" model, showing the details under the front mud flaps, building it with the connectors for the mine roller system, or not. Etc..

It is evident that the Mini-art team had accesibilty to the manufacturer of the T54/55 in Charkiv Morozov plant, as the details.. for instance in the running gear and suspension, are a dream by themselves.

My two cents
Michael Mass
ReluctantRenegade
Visit this Community
Wien, Austria
Joined: March 09, 2016
KitMaker: 1,806 posts
Armorama: 1,801 posts
Posted: Monday, March 05, 2018 - 05:14 PM UTC
Thanks for the insight, Mr. Mass!


Quoted Text

This configuration of the Tiran with the air recognition boxes, and 100mm gun never took service with the IDF. Those are retrofitted Tirans with the installation of the old 100mm guns.



What was the reason for this rather complicated 'backdating' before handing them over to SLA? Ammo availability (or the lack thereof)?
glock17c
Visit this Community
Jerusalem, Israel
Joined: May 16, 2007
KitMaker: 132 posts
Armorama: 129 posts
Posted: Monday, March 05, 2018 - 07:11 PM UTC
Main reason was the the availabilty of 100mm rounds (enough for the SLA) and the dear and expansive 105mm rounds that were still in use at that time by the majority of the IDF fleet, i.e. the entire Magach + Shot-Cal fleet in addition to the Merkava Mk. 1+2.
gloucesternige
Visit this Community
England - South West, United Kingdom
Joined: January 13, 2012
KitMaker: 307 posts
Armorama: 283 posts
Posted: Tuesday, March 06, 2018 - 01:09 AM UTC

Quoted Text

A few clarifications, dear friends
1. As far as definitions and names, the additional SH or beter 'Sharir', is only for 105mm Tirans. Tiran 4 Sharir, or Tiran 5 Sharir.
2. This configuration of the Tiran with the air recognition boxes, and 100mm gun never took service with the IDF. Those are retrofitted Tirans with the installation of the old 100mm guns.
3. Yes, the interior was painte white in the entire fighting and engine compartments.
4. Spider road wheels could be found in service, but not so common.
5. The gun was NOT M68 (the US version) but only a 105 L7 barrel connected to the 100mm original breech and recoil mechanism. The only change in the breech was the installation of the electrical firing pin, and the added manual generating mech.

All in all I LOVE the little details in the mini-art T series with all these tiny fine and to-the-scale parts, the welding seams, the perfect matching between parts and sub-assemblies, and the so many options to do a "different" model, showing the details under the front mud flaps, building it with the connectors for the mine roller system, or not. Etc..

It is evident that the Mini-art team had accesibilty to the manufacturer of the T54/55 in Charkiv Morozov plant, as the details.. for instance in the running gear and suspension, are a dream by themselves.

My two cents
Michael Mass



Thank you so much for your input Mr Mass. Your advice is much appreciated by many I'm sure.

I would like some clarification on point no 2 please. Are you actually saying the kit in this format as Miniart would have you build it is inaccurate for idf service?

I have just ordered the Orange Hobby L7 barrel for my Dragon M60 wERA so your info on that is well received.

One more point.. is the Tamiya Tiran 5 actually a Sharir?

glock17c
Visit this Community
Jerusalem, Israel
Joined: May 16, 2007
KitMaker: 132 posts
Armorama: 129 posts
Posted: Tuesday, March 06, 2018 - 05:15 AM UTC
Nigel,
Thank you for your reply.
As for #2, the fact is that the 105mm gun, was installed already on Early Tiran 5 that were not yet fitted with the air-recognition boxes. In other words, the boxes and this configuration, was already fitted with the 105mm so it cannot be with the 100mm. It is perfect as a SLA service Tiran w/100mm gun.
The Tamiya Tiran 5 is a 'Sharir' version for sure.

Important note:
The fact that some fume extractor cylinders on the 'Sharir' 105mm guns on the Tirans 4/5 were of the rounded edges, does not indicate that the gun is the M68. The guns were always the L7, but with the welded or round corner cylinders.
gloucesternige
Visit this Community
England - South West, United Kingdom
Joined: January 13, 2012
KitMaker: 307 posts
Armorama: 283 posts
Posted: Tuesday, March 06, 2018 - 12:27 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Nigel,
Thank you for your reply.
As for #2, the fact is that the 105mm gun, was installed already on Early Tiran 5 that were not yet fitted with the air-recognition boxes. In other words, the boxes and this configuration, was already fitted with the 105mm so it cannot be with the 100mm. It is perfect as a SLA service Tiran w/100mm gun.




So, if I want to build this kit as IDF out of the box I just need to add a 105mm barrel? I have a couple unwrapped spares from other kits although, the Dragon M60 barrel is surely an M68.

Again, all advice will be gratefully received!!
vettejack
Visit this Community
Florida, United States
Joined: November 23, 2012
KitMaker: 895 posts
Armorama: 872 posts
Posted: Tuesday, March 06, 2018 - 06:01 PM UTC
Thank god I bought the Takom Tiran 4 kit instead. That should be no where near the issues you guys are experiencing with the MiniArt kit! Yea, right!
Removed by original poster on 03/08/18 - 02:26:51 (GMT).