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Dioramas
Do you love dioramas & vignettes? We sure do.
Operation Anthropoid
Dioramartin
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New South Wales, Australia
Joined: May 04, 2016
KitMaker: 1,208 posts
Armorama: 1,203 posts
Posted: Tuesday, January 28, 2020 - 01:04 AM UTC
Thanks Erwin OK it’s what I imagined. Max span is about 75cms but only one as a straight single line that I can see - as the diagram shows the rest are linked in shorter tensioning sections…so because they zig-zag from one pole to another the actual length is even more than 75cms. I could be wrong and perhaps that tensioning will keep it all up, but I still think the kicker is how to divide the matrix into manageable pieces
G-man69
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England - South West, United Kingdom
Joined: October 17, 2017
KitMaker: 462 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, January 28, 2020 - 05:45 AM UTC
Hi Tim,

A dedicated wing sounds just the ticket...a 'Man Wing'...actually that sounds so wrong, , ...stick to 'Man Cave', a very large one, .

That did sound like a very traumatic removals experience, not sure how I would have coped...luckily the gun laws in the UK are very restrictive, "Ssshhhh! be vewy, vewy quiet, I'm hunting wemoval men! Huh-huh-huh-huh!" .

Cheers, ,

G
Golikell
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Noord-Holland, Netherlands
Joined: October 25, 2002
KitMaker: 1,445 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, January 28, 2020 - 07:11 PM UTC
I'm afraid there is only one way to find out the rigidity of the material: testing. But I think, that as long as both sides ar supported, and the powercables them selves are as light weight as possible (like very fine fishing wire) the possible sag will be neglible. As for how to keep it removable, I have not a final idea yet, but don't use elastic products. These will loose their elasticity in the end and become brittle.
justsendit
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Colorado, United States
Joined: February 24, 2014
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Posted: Wednesday, January 29, 2020 - 10:30 AM UTC
I guess what I'm imagining for the wire network is some sort of suspended spidey-net with provision for relatively easy break-down — maybe some creative soldering? Here's some micro-thin 'Albion Alloys' rod found at M&Models.

In the meantime, I can't stop seeing this... string! 🤪

Cheers!🍺
—mike
Bonaparte84
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Hessen, Germany
Joined: July 17, 2013
KitMaker: 324 posts
Armorama: 317 posts
Posted: Thursday, January 30, 2020 - 05:27 AM UTC

Quoted Text

The full url has been trunkated somehow...
http://www.aber.net.pl/detal,1249.html
I understand what you're saying. At least, the web should be very light, but also ridig enough. a mix of materials could do the trick. What is the maximum distance that should be spanned?



Yupp, Erwin, that's the one... Thanks for jumping in. How many scale mm do you need for the cables, Tim? German Wikipedia says 10 - 12 mm, but I have no idea whether this is historically accurate. If that's true, you only need 0,3 mm rods, which makes everything even lighter. I'll keep thinking about solutions...
Stickframe
#362
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California, United States
Joined: December 01, 2013
KitMaker: 1,509 posts
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Posted: Thursday, January 30, 2020 - 08:25 AM UTC
Hi Tim,

Don't drop your Xacto when you see it's me - yes, it's been a while since I've checked in, though I read your updates.

This time, regarding the question of overhead trolley hardware, I might be able to add to the discussion. Yes, I was for a while a model railroader - no, my layout never made much sense, but it was a lot of fun to build. Along the way, I added a single track trolley that begged for a representation of overhead power. The trolley car that I had was supposed to represent the F Line, historic rail car that still runs here in SF.

I ride to work every day on the bus, so I paid attention to how the power system is "strung" over the city streets. In brief, there are two basic cable elements: power lines; and, support lattice. I know, seems obvious, but a helpful realization for building a model.

In some places, the "support lattice" wires tie back to the pole with a single, horizontal wire, but in others, a second wire ties back to a location higher on the pole, creating a triangle shape - the pole, vertical, one wire horizontal and perpendicular to the pole, and another wire diagonal (hypotenuse), creating truss.

I used some strong white metal poles for support, essentially like yours. I also figured out string/thread/wire alone would not stay in place, look good, or be easy to align correctly. Instead, using very fine Phosphorous Bronze wire (which is stiffer than brass), I built a truss system hung from the poles to hold the "power" line.

This meant to "hang" one or two pieces of the thin wire to the top of the each pole via really tiny eye screws in the pole (not a permanent attachment - the thin wire just "hanging" on the eye screw on each pole, though with a curve on the end so the thin wire didn't fall off). This can be one or two thin wires, depending on the location on the layout, just like real life, but the thin wires are the various "legs" of the truss.

This system triangulates the thin wire(s) out from the poles to a prescribed middle point above the track, where I used a white metal bit (any fine metal would work, just something that won't tear or stretch) to connect the thin wire, coming from the poles on the other side of the street.

The small metal piece serves as a coupler, holding the various truss assemblies in tension (which is key) - and thus, no sag - at all.

To work around curves, the "trusses" can be set at tangents to the curve, to help "guide" the alignment, and might not be located directly above the track.

Under this web of trusses, I hung my fake power system using some heavy duty looking thread and it worked fine.

OK, lots of words, which I hope aren't too confusing! - these are the only pics I could find of my solution:





Sorry about the non-overhead-centric images - but, who knows, maybe useful?

Cheers

Nick



Dioramartin
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New South Wales, Australia
Joined: May 04, 2016
KitMaker: 1,208 posts
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Posted: Saturday, February 01, 2020 - 05:24 PM UTC
Many thanks for the input guys, always appreciated particularly when I wander into modelling quicksand. Seems like zero support for the Perspex idea, I guess this cabling issue goes to the heart of what is it I’m trying to do - make a permanent diorama or a stage-set for a photo-shoot? Big difference, because up until now I’d been thinking in terms of the latter. Ever since the Stalingrad dio I’ve voluntarily trashed (or recycled) all bases after photography for practical reasons – I don’t “show” them & can’t display them.

But this time I think I’d have a very hard time taking the big hammer to it, given the hours/work/money put in. Even if our new home doesn’t have enough room to display it maybe some institution or club might if it’s deemed worthy. But the more immediate problem is transporting it there & storing it, so if I’m going to attempt rigging it’ll have to wait until after the dust has settled which could be 6+ months hence…but I guess it is the one thing that can wait until the very end, there’s plenty to do in the meantime.

That would also buy time to ponder exactly how to do it (or rather how I can do it) now that Nick’s emerged cobra-like from deep lurkdom to throw down the gauntlet with visual evidence and a complete how-to guide…except maybe the problem of the base being in two halves with the most complex array of cabling running right through the joint…but dimly I’m beginning to see how even that might be resolved too. In any case mighty impressive images, and for relatively newcomers to this forum here’s some more reasons why Stickframe’s one of the very best, just scroll down this linked page…

https://armorama.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=SquawkBox&file=index&req=viewtopic&topic_id=246554&ord=&page=12

Spooky yet again Mike, the same day you posted I was in my LHS buying some samples of…Albion tubes, & noticed there was some super-fine rods on the racks. Maybe they’re the same phosphorous bronze type Nick mentioned - I’ll check that out soon but one problem at a time, right now Susie keeps walking past humming this…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxSarBcsKLU

Meanwhile back in the Cobblers Anonymous facility, serious relapses: Days 48 to 55…

















The wristwatch is off because the metal rulers’ magnetism stops it dead, that’s a glass of essential cobbling fuel, there’s the Albion tubes, and in the last shot you can see measures necessary to counter the balsa warping when the filler’s applied – compartment-braces & off-cuts glued to the underside of the panel. The sidewalk curve is the final step of the cobbling process which I hope to complete this coming week before going away for a few days (not only to recover), so next update a fortnight hence
Catsrcool
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England - West Midlands, United Kingdom
Joined: December 04, 2018
KitMaker: 30 posts
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Posted: Saturday, February 01, 2020 - 09:53 PM UTC
I don't know if you have seen this:
blob:https://www.youtube.com/d004c0ec-db7d-4484-a910-409d359bd2ee
if it is Heidrich's car there is some interesting details about the unique modifactions done to the vehicle.
jrutman
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Pennsylvania, United States
Joined: April 10, 2011
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Posted: Sunday, February 02, 2020 - 03:12 AM UTC
I have spent a lot of time making and installing scale roof tiles so I can sort of commiserate with you on the level of tedium taking place during your cobble battle. But I have to admit nothing I have attempted concerning anything like this comes close to what you have achieved. Holy crap man,that's a lot of stones. Hat off !
J
Stickframe
#362
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California, United States
Joined: December 01, 2013
KitMaker: 1,509 posts
Armorama: 1,198 posts
Posted: Sunday, February 02, 2020 - 06:28 AM UTC
Hi Tim,

Ha! Thanks for that generous introduction - I appreciate it! who knows, maybe that’s a catalyst for me to finish that build!

As to your dilemma of temporarily establishing a strong bond between the two parts of your build, model rr might provide an approach. The pictures I include above are also modules. They had a 1”x3” frame with thin plywood on top, framed like a wall, with the 1” wide side glued and screwed to the plywood. I used nuts and bolts to hold the modules together - easy to tighten up, and just as easy to undo and separate. Pretty straightforward - two small (1/4” dia) bolts located in holes drilled through the 1x3s. You’re sandwiching the 1x3s of the two modules together with the bolts. Making it easier, these were carriage bolts with washers and wing nuts - perfect!

As to your cobblestones! Wow - quite a feat! I built a 1/35 scale building that had a brick facade - and like this, a LOT of hand placed bricks!! Can drive you crazy! For that I used really thin styrene strips (cut from .01” sheet) for brick spacing (I’ll see if I can find a pic). This provides a good general layout of the bricks (like you’ve done) - then to simulate mortar, or just to fill gaps, I used lightweight spackle (it’s super light, easy to use, can be sanded, cleans up w/ water etc). It’s a great general gap filler. If you look in either the dio forum or my gallery for a build called rough road, on the road again, you can see it in use in the WIP photos. Might be helpful and a lot more forgiving than plaster.

Keep up the great work - I’ve really enjoyed watching so much excellent scratch work - your trolleys are fantastic!

Cheers
Nick
Dioramartin
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New South Wales, Australia
Joined: May 04, 2016
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Posted: Wednesday, February 05, 2020 - 04:05 PM UTC
You’re very welcome Nick & thanks for the kind words, I’m sure your legion of fans would be delighted if you did return & finish that masterpiece - there’s a bunch of newcomers to this forum who like having their minds blown too, you da man.

Maybe you slightly misunderstood my problem (or I have!), it’s not about joining the two halves of the dio base but about the fact the joint is directly under the most complex part of the cabling array. Once we’re installed in our new home yes I can join the two halves to construct the array but I may need to un-join/store the bases again, and I see difficulties in making the array in such a way it can be easily divided. But I think we’ve already concluded the array could in fact be made in modules – they won’t necessarily conform to the bases but that doesn’t matter as long as they’re relatively easy to put together.

Agreed for dioramas ordinary plaster can be an unmitigated disaster – as you’ve seen I’ve been using External (as opposed to Internal) wood-filler (similar to spackle but tougher) & been impressed by its durability & reluctance to crack. I’d already come up with a different idea for the brickwork (having abandoned the “Waferbrix” prototype as too labour-intensive...stop laughing) which I’ll be trialling again next week (Patent Pending) but now I know if that doesn’t work the Evergreen stamp/wood-filler concept should rescue me. This space watching keep
cheyenne
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New Jersey, United States
Joined: January 05, 2005
KitMaker: 2,022 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, February 05, 2020 - 10:17 PM UTC
Don't go making fun of my red neck arkeetecurural blueprint .
If you're using rigid wire , rr guys use ho , s , g , scale sleeves made for model rr overhead wiring .

Sherlock Holmes once said , " Once you eliminate all the possibles and probables , whatever's left is your answer ........ "

Dioramartin
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New South Wales, Australia
Joined: May 04, 2016
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Posted: Thursday, February 06, 2020 - 12:09 AM UTC
Ah Glenn I’ll call off the search, thought you might have tried swimming the Atlantic (& back) before breakfast. Can’t mock your sketch alas, thanks for doing it & does the job just fine – so, the ol’ sleeve ploy eh? Yep provided the wires wedge firmly into them & don’t drop out…but hey did Holmes eliminate elasticated wires?...rigid for the “ladders” but the support lines stretched across & hooked/unhooked at the pylons? ....it’s late here so I’ll take that idea into the land of Nod with me
jrutman
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Pennsylvania, United States
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Posted: Thursday, February 06, 2020 - 02:15 AM UTC
The issue should be an easy fix for you,considering the awesome amount of work you've accomplished here so far and the myriad problems that came up and got solved already as well. This build even got Nick to break radio silence ! Impressive.
J
Dioramartin
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New South Wales, Australia
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Posted: Friday, February 14, 2020 - 01:23 AM UTC
Thanks Jerry, well we all got limitations and (one of) mine’s anything to do with wire but with the help of the above contributors it’s less daunting now, even if I have kicked it down the road so to speak. Meanwhile I was finally released from The Facility after finishing the last section of cobbling…



…the hidden hatch in the road there for the IED & the kerbstone that opens it seem to have blended in nicely. Take a tour…















The sidewalk cobble-patterns (and the roadways) are as close to the photo refs as I can make ‘em, I’m spent/content. Stand-ins for approximate positions of agents Gabcik & Kubis…











MiniArt drains test-fit – they’ll do the job with some better integration (& then some paint)…





I’m still on parole though, the cobbles need generally sanding down & levelling in some places and the track slots will need in-filling when the rails get embedded. I’m in no hurry to throw paint around yet, either the rails or the brick pillars will be the subject of the next update. Then there’s the lamp-posts, railings, signposts, sunken garden…
jrutman
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Pennsylvania, United States
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Posted: Friday, February 14, 2020 - 02:23 AM UTC
Since a lot of the details are frequently being covered here it is easy to forget the sheer scale of this project. That overview pic brings home the point. HUGE ! And no loss of fidelity as well. Epic,just epic.
J
smallcastle
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Attica, Greece / Ελλάδα
Joined: December 03, 2019
KitMaker: 57 posts
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Posted: Friday, February 14, 2020 - 07:43 PM UTC
Congratulations, the whole project is excellent and I imagine it will end up amazing, it impressed me,how natural is the attitude of the figures
Dim
Golikell
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Noord-Holland, Netherlands
Joined: October 25, 2002
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Posted: Saturday, February 15, 2020 - 05:41 AM UTC
It really looks great! Nothing to be ashamed of here... 😍
G-man69
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England - South West, United Kingdom
Joined: October 17, 2017
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Posted: Saturday, February 15, 2020 - 05:54 AM UTC
Hi Tim,

Mind-blowing, the sheer scale of the project is awe inspiring. How many hundreds of hours do you reckon you've put into the project to date?

Cheers, ,

G
strongarden
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Florida, United States
Joined: May 14, 2012
KitMaker: 730 posts
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Posted: Saturday, February 15, 2020 - 12:56 PM UTC
Absolutely amazing Tim. I went back thru a doz pgs or so and I'm just in awe. Nice technique with the plank-stacks becoming brick work! Never saw that used before, nor the cobblestone stamp work either.
Really looking frwd to your progress, keep on keepin' on!


Regards
Dave
Dioramartin
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New South Wales, Australia
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Posted: Saturday, February 15, 2020 - 03:40 PM UTC
Thanks very much guys, and Gareth – this is what slightly early Retirement allows. By the time of this project’s 2nd anniversary in March I guess it’ll be approx. 3,000 hours & I’m guessing it’ll be 4,000 by the time I’m done. So far that’s including research, building/converting Heydrich’s car & the three trams, the base, the photography, the therapy….scary, but then I’ve never been able to say just sit there and watch TV, I have to be doing something else at the same time or have background music instead. To put it in some kinda desperate context 3,000 hours is roughly what I sleep per 500 days…
cheyenne
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New Jersey, United States
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Posted: Saturday, February 15, 2020 - 10:34 PM UTC
Big , bad and beautiful Tim .
Have you done any off bench paint tests on the cobbles ?
Plaster/filler/wall mud , has different absorbing rates when painted without a primer or sealer which makes for some interesting patterns .
Grey tone wood stain would work good for this , cheaper too , then brushed with watered down brown shades .
Whatever , you know what you're doing man and it's fantastic !!!!
Dioramartin
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Posted: Saturday, February 15, 2020 - 10:50 PM UTC
Hah thanks mate & if you think I know what I’m doing my new career as a con-artist’s off to a flyer! Yeah I did some paint tests (amazingly) before I started cobbling, usually I discover a disaster way too late. I’m hell-bent on using powder-paints because of their matt effect & low dime-per-sq. ft. ratio. I had to check the relatively high-water content wasn’t rejected by the filler or “melt” the cobbles, results were good & it just absorbs OK. But maybe you’ve sensed the possible problem I need to deal with – the greenish filler & its contrast to the white. I’m tossing up finding a white primer or maybe a greyish primer to even it all up, but I’ll need to check the paint’ll hold on that. About #23 on the issues list!
cheyenne
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Posted: Saturday, February 15, 2020 - 11:02 PM UTC
Ouch , yeah , stain won't work cause of the two different filler colors .
Dioramartin
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New South Wales, Australia
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Posted: Saturday, February 15, 2020 - 11:28 PM UTC
Exactly & I can’t just use a base wash of powder paint - it’s a once-only cover because a second application just dissolves what’s underneath, and I’m not sure any kind of fixative to secure the wash-layer would allow a 2nd coat of paint on top. The filler’s slightly porous so it absorbs the paint perfectly, the problem may be finding something that doesn’t block that porosity