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Armor/AFV: Axis - WWII
Armor and ground forces of the Axis forces during World War II.
Hosted by Darren Baker
Dragon Tiger II -Porsche: instructions error?
RicardoH
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Lisboa, Portugal
Joined: May 10, 2014
KitMaker: 50 posts
Armorama: 50 posts
Posted: Sunday, November 25, 2018 - 01:10 AM UTC
Hi guys,

I'm building one of the Dragon's King Tiger with the Porsche turret and something doesn't look right. Since Dragon has been updating their previous kits, I had the chance to compare the instructions with the older kit and they are different. I'm using kit 6848 and I already noticed there are ommissions in the manual.

While building the gun, I noticed this doesn't look right (it's a KT in Normandy):



The instructions tell me I should glue the barrel directly to part K10:



The earlier version of this kit indicates parts H7 and H8 should be added. The manual of my kit does not indicate these parts, but they are also NOT on the "Do not use" list.



Is it possible to get any input?

Thanks in advance.
agtquimi
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Burgos, Spain / Espaņa
Joined: September 08, 2005
KitMaker: 111 posts
Armorama: 70 posts
Posted: Sunday, November 25, 2018 - 04:38 AM UTC
Have you tried to put H8 part? If it matches and look right with it,this should be the way to go... ;-)

The zimmerited mantlet is a complete new part from the one of the old mould, but in your builing looks like is still missing part H8 ...
Scarred
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Washington, United States
Joined: March 11, 2016
KitMaker: 1,163 posts
Armorama: 802 posts
Posted: Sunday, November 25, 2018 - 05:05 AM UTC
Here are several KT's with Porsche turrets look at the barrels and notice there are a couple different guns:
https://www.worldwarphotos.info/gallery/germany/tanks-2-3/tiger2/tiger-ii-france-1-porsche-turret/

https://www.worldwarphotos.info/gallery/germany/tanks-2-3/tiger2/tiger-2-tank-porsche-turret-19/

https://www.worldwarphotos.info/gallery/germany/tanks-2-3/tiger2/tiger-ii-france-2-porsche-turret/

https://www.worldwarphotos.info/gallery/germany/tanks-2-3/tiger2/tiger-2-tank-porsche-turret/

https://www.worldwarphotos.info/gallery/germany/tanks-2-3/tiger2/tiger-2-tank-32/

https://www.worldwarphotos.info/gallery/germany/tanks-2-3/tiger2/tiger-2-tank-porsche-turret-with-zimmerit/

Here are some Henschel KT's

https://www.worldwarphotos.info/gallery/germany/tanks-2-3/tiger2/tiger-2-tank-99/

https://www.worldwarphotos.info/gallery/germany/tanks-2-3/tiger2/tiger-2-tank-101/

https://www.worldwarphotos.info/gallery/germany/tanks-2-3/tiger2/tiger-2-tank-6/

https://www.worldwarphotos.info/gallery/germany/tanks-2-3/tiger2/tiger-2-tank-79/

https://www.worldwarphotos.info/gallery/germany/tanks-2-3/tiger2/tiger-ii-and-russian-officer/

https://www.worldwarphotos.info/gallery/germany/tanks-2-3/tiger2/konigstiger-crew-and-zimmerit/
RicardoH
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Lisboa, Portugal
Joined: May 10, 2014
KitMaker: 50 posts
Armorama: 50 posts
Posted: Sunday, November 25, 2018 - 09:13 AM UTC
Here it is. Part H8 didn't fit, but H7 did. It looks much closer to the photos Patrick kindly linked.

My other doubt is that in the original kit, Dragon tells us to use one type of barrel and in this kit the other kind. I couldn't find photos from the real tank (114) so I'll just use the barrel the instructions tell me to use (but won't glue it just yet).

darreng
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England - South East, United Kingdom
Joined: January 21, 2006
KitMaker: 789 posts
Armorama: 382 posts
Posted: Sunday, November 25, 2018 - 09:25 AM UTC
I've found this image of #114 of s.Pz.Abt.503 a while ago for my Takom King Tiger. It may be of interest?

7a8765d07b25da3842ecad52602cd4bc by Darren Greenwood, on Flickr
RicardoH
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Lisboa, Portugal
Joined: May 10, 2014
KitMaker: 50 posts
Armorama: 50 posts
Posted: Sunday, November 25, 2018 - 11:41 AM UTC
Hi Darren,

it helped a lot. I searched for more photos and realised Dragon made a mess of this kit's manual. For this particular tank, the other barrel on the sprues should be used, not this one, but they only mentioned it on the old kit instructions. The "updated" kit doesn't mention one type of barrel for the KT in Normandy and another for the KT in Hungary.

Here's a photo of tank 114 in Normandy, where the 114 is clearly visible.



Also, and I only realised this now, even the boxart shows another type of barrel...



Fortunately, I still haven't glued the parts together.
Totalize
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Ontario, Canada
Joined: February 04, 2009
KitMaker: 728 posts
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Posted: Sunday, November 25, 2018 - 03:02 PM UTC
the Normandy barrel is the early "sectional" barrel and the other the later style AFAIK.
shellygb
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Wales, United Kingdom
Joined: May 10, 2007
KitMaker: 20 posts
Armorama: 19 posts
Posted: Sunday, November 25, 2018 - 09:37 PM UTC
Hi All had the same issue back in 2008 with this kit.

https://armorama.kitmaker.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=SquawkBox&file=index&req=viewtopic&topic_id=114376#941600

Hope this helps
RicardoH
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Lisboa, Portugal
Joined: May 10, 2014
KitMaker: 50 posts
Armorama: 50 posts
Posted: Sunday, November 25, 2018 - 10:18 PM UTC
Thanks for the link. What did you do (if you still remember)?

Like you mentioned on that post, part H8 won't fit the mantlet unless you drill it out.

Checking the photo of 114 I posted, it looks like it only has one ring, but I could be wrong. Right now, the turret looks like this:



TopSmith
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Washington, United States
Joined: August 09, 2002
KitMaker: 1,407 posts
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Posted: Monday, November 26, 2018 - 12:41 AM UTC
Wow, who would have believed that Dragon would mess up a set of instructions?
RicardoH
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Lisboa, Portugal
Joined: May 10, 2014
KitMaker: 50 posts
Armorama: 50 posts
Posted: Monday, November 26, 2018 - 01:33 AM UTC
Indeed... I fear for the rest of this build and for the loads of Dragon kits I have on my stash.
shellygb
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Wales, United Kingdom
Joined: May 10, 2007
KitMaker: 20 posts
Armorama: 19 posts
Posted: Monday, November 26, 2018 - 02:11 AM UTC
Hi I think I drilled it out to fit. See if I can dig the model out to look.

Dragon instructions are abysmal. Remember building a Dragon Hummel and the where it suggested the guides for the rear gun mounts were glued in place rather than just there to glue the mounts in.


RicardoH
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Lisboa, Portugal
Joined: May 10, 2014
KitMaker: 50 posts
Armorama: 50 posts
Posted: Monday, November 26, 2018 - 06:55 AM UTC
This is what the turret looks like now (I think it's finished). One thing I noticed from the B&W photos is that tank 114 didn't have the track hangers on the turret sides (at least in front).





Bozothenutter
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Zuid-Holland, Netherlands
Joined: December 06, 2017
KitMaker: 22 posts
Armorama: 22 posts
Posted: Monday, November 26, 2018 - 07:11 AM UTC

Quoted Text

the Normandy barrel is the early "sectional" barrel and the other the later style AFAIK.


other way around mate, the one piece barrel is the early, the two-piece the late.
brekinapez
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Georgia, United States
Joined: July 26, 2013
KitMaker: 1,880 posts
Armorama: 1,607 posts
Posted: Monday, November 26, 2018 - 07:21 AM UTC
I think what happens is when Dragon re-pops a kit with changes/variations, the writers just cut'n'paste new instructions into the old instructions without any thought as to whether or not sequencing is altered, or if the parts indicated match the numbers on the sprues (or which sprue if you get a kit with several sprues of the same letter). I don't think any of them have built a kit from the instructions they themselves wrote.
Removed by original poster on 11/26/18 - 19:33:22 (GMT).
RicardoH
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Lisboa, Portugal
Joined: May 10, 2014
KitMaker: 50 posts
Armorama: 50 posts
Posted: Monday, November 26, 2018 - 07:55 AM UTC
True. They even use photos from the earlier kit which adds up to the confusion...
TopSmith
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Washington, United States
Joined: August 09, 2002
KitMaker: 1,407 posts
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Posted: Monday, November 26, 2018 - 06:39 PM UTC
Here is the real rub. For the cost of a free kit, there are those among us who would redo/correct the directions for them. Problem solved at little cost to Dragon.
Removed by original poster on 11/27/18 - 11:11:42 (GMT).
shellygb
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Wales, United Kingdom
Joined: May 10, 2007
KitMaker: 20 posts
Armorama: 19 posts
Posted: Tuesday, November 27, 2018 - 01:32 AM UTC
Hi Found my kit and it is still in my to do stash after 10 years. The kit had a metal barrel so just fitted the sleeve and barrel rather than having to drill things out.

RLlockie
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United Kingdom
Joined: September 06, 2013
KitMaker: 964 posts
Armorama: 805 posts
Posted: Tuesday, November 27, 2018 - 05:02 AM UTC
But then given that there are people who would tell them, for nothing, that Porsche had nothing to do with turret design or manufacture and they still persist in misidentifying the very subject of the kit, how likely is that to happen? They already have access to knowledgeable subject matter experts who advise them but such advice is not always heeded.

All part of the challenge....
brekinapez
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Georgia, United States
Joined: July 26, 2013
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Posted: Tuesday, November 27, 2018 - 06:18 AM UTC

Quoted Text

But then given that there are people who would tell them, for nothing, that Porsche had nothing to do with turret design or manufacture and they still persist in misidentifying the very subject of the kit....



Well, since there are still plenty of model builders who continue to call it the wrong name, we can hardly put that all on Dragon.
TopSmith
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Washington, United States
Joined: August 09, 2002
KitMaker: 1,407 posts
Armorama: 1,337 posts
Posted: Tuesday, November 27, 2018 - 02:48 PM UTC
They just label it the common name not the technical name. Someone reading a list of names recognizes the kit they want. I am sure there is no more effort than that in how they name it.
Totalize
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Ontario, Canada
Joined: February 04, 2009
KitMaker: 728 posts
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Posted: Thursday, January 10, 2019 - 03:15 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

the Normandy barrel is the early "sectional" barrel and the other the later style AFAIK.


other way around mate, the one piece barrel is the early, the two-piece the late.



You are correct sir. Not sure what I was thinking there, silly me.