login   |    register
Armor/AFV
For discussions on tanks, artillery, jeeps, etc.
engine source required
southpier
Visit this Community
Alberta, Canada
Joined: December 11, 2009
KitMaker: 129 posts
Armorama: 75 posts
Posted: Sunday, December 30, 2018 - 01:44 PM UTC
converting a 1:60 Billing Boats Rainbow #201 to 1:35 scale.

Q: anyone suggest a 1:35 scale engine which could plausibly power this craft?

thanks
18Bravo
Visit this Community
Colorado, United States
Joined: January 20, 2005
KitMaker: 6,411 posts
Armorama: 5,391 posts
Posted: Sunday, December 30, 2018 - 03:47 PM UTC
Interesting. Having lived in Crystal River in the 70's shrimpers used to fascinate me. I even spent some time on one a time or two.
Take a look at the Volvo Penta D2 55. It's a diesel of course, but I think the engine from the Skybow M38A1C might be a good basis for the block.
southpier
Visit this Community
Alberta, Canada
Joined: December 11, 2009
KitMaker: 129 posts
Armorama: 75 posts
Posted: Sunday, December 30, 2018 - 10:37 PM UTC
thanks for the suggestion. this is my "gateway" kit hopefully leading up to a Clyde Puffer in a couple of years. never did planes or boats, just cars & trains.

I searched for the kit suggested, and think it will fit the bil-ge just fine. I want to cram a lot of stuff below decks, so it's diminutive layout will suggest a prime mover yet leave room for other things.


thanx again.
18Bravo
Visit this Community
Colorado, United States
Joined: January 20, 2005
KitMaker: 6,411 posts
Armorama: 5,391 posts
Posted: Monday, December 31, 2018 - 03:23 AM UTC
Just for fun, I looked at the engine in one of my Hasegawa 1/24 scale Jeeps. It too would work - for a larger vessel. So now you have a decision to make: Which one do you want me to send you? No point buying a whole kit for a few bits. (Trust me, I've been down that path many times)

Edited to add:

By the way, it's not uncommon to see inline four gasoline engines in this role. The BMC engine was used in gasoline AND Diesel marine applications. The basic block of the BMC allowed for easy conversion to dieselization, so you could do the same with the kit.
RobinNilsson
Staff MemberTOS Moderator
KITMAKER NETWORK
Visit this Community
Stockholm, Sweden
Joined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 4,849 posts
Armorama: 4,105 posts
Posted: Monday, December 31, 2018 - 03:46 AM UTC
Boat engines, especially diesels, tend to be larger. Not large as in horsepower but large in volume/bulk due to a heavier construction.
That kind of fishing cutter needs a slow running high torque engine. Use a three or four bladed propeller instead of the originals 2 bladed. That 2 bladed prop needs another, older, type of engine:
Something like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUmc049twkE
this one has electric glow plugs, the older ones needed a blow torch to heat the glow bulbs.
This is a 40 hp crude oil engine
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSQVTwh2J4E
This one is only 15 hp:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H39drBmwxL8

I would go for the 1/24th engine and a 3 or 4 bladed prop.
When the crude oil engines were swapped out they were
usually replaced with truck/bus diesels converted for
maritime usage.

/ Robin
southpier
Visit this Community
Alberta, Canada
Joined: December 11, 2009
KitMaker: 129 posts
Armorama: 75 posts
Posted: Monday, December 31, 2018 - 10:05 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Just for fun....



thank you for the encouragement. I like the idea of using a jeep engine. maybe even cutting it down to 3 cylinders.


Q: would a model A engine work? I may have one around from a revell kit.


I appreciate your generous offer of the engine. this project is my first boat and i'm trying walk, but my imagination wants to run!


if I could "bank" your generousity for a few weeks until I decide what i'm doing that would be great.

best,

j
southpier
Visit this Community
Alberta, Canada
Joined: December 11, 2009
KitMaker: 129 posts
Armorama: 75 posts
Posted: Monday, December 31, 2018 - 10:09 AM UTC
[quote]Boat engines, especially diesels, tend to be larger.... [quote]

thank you; this is giving me perspective and a benchmark for further decisions.

appreciate the prop tip, too. I can see how guys can spend oodles getting aftermarket parts.

the engine links are great; something for further research always appreciated.

I can see how this project is going to take on a life of its own!
RobinNilsson
Staff MemberTOS Moderator
KITMAKER NETWORK
Visit this Community
Stockholm, Sweden
Joined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 4,849 posts
Armorama: 4,105 posts
Posted: Monday, December 31, 2018 - 10:36 AM UTC
I think you could find more images if you google 'crude oil engine'. Most of them were fairly simple contraptions as manufacturing goes. No complicated shapes or advanced castings.
They look sort of homebuilt so scratchbuilding could be an option. Cylinders, flywheel, lots of pipes and handles and stuff.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot-bulb_engine

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyibOGdZcpI

I found a pdf in Swedish about this type of engine mounted in fishing boats and it says that fishing boats up until WW II and a few years after had 2 to 3 cylinder engines of between 150 to 250 hp, rpm was around 150 to 250 r/min. This would have been boats of similar size as Rainbow. From 1958 to 1962 there were state subsidies to assist with replacing the hot bulb engines with diesels.

/ Robin
southpier
Visit this Community
Alberta, Canada
Joined: December 11, 2009
KitMaker: 129 posts
Armorama: 75 posts
Posted: Monday, December 31, 2018 - 02:20 PM UTC
love the sound of that engine in the youtube link!
18Bravo
Visit this Community
Colorado, United States
Joined: January 20, 2005
KitMaker: 6,411 posts
Armorama: 5,391 posts
Posted: Tuesday, January 01, 2019 - 08:34 AM UTC

Quoted Text


if I could "bank" your generousity for a few weeks until I decide what i'm doing that would be great.



Consider them "banked."
RobinNilsson
Staff MemberTOS Moderator
KITMAKER NETWORK
Visit this Community
Stockholm, Sweden
Joined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 4,849 posts
Armorama: 4,105 posts
Posted: Tuesday, January 08, 2019 - 11:20 AM UTC
I just bought a caterpillar from Mirror Models and it comes with a heavy looking low rpm engine.
Miniart also make kits of various caterpillar tractors.
In ship installation the cooling fan had probably been omitted since they usually use cold seawater to cool the primary cooling circuits. The radiator gets replaced with a big heat exchanger and there should be a waterpump powered by the fan belts, pushing water instead of air.

You can download the assembly instructions from Mirror Models webpage:
http://www.mirror-models.com/135-US-Military-Crawler.html
if you want to check what the engine looks like.

It is very similar to this one:



/ Robin
southpier
Visit this Community
Alberta, Canada
Joined: December 11, 2009
KitMaker: 129 posts
Armorama: 75 posts
Posted: Tuesday, January 08, 2019 - 12:26 PM UTC
thanks for the pictures and the MM link. I am almost afraid to use an "authentic" 1:35 engine. thinking about how much "Imagineering" I will be doing to get a 1:60 scale boat to plausible 1:35 scale condition, my concern is that the engine might show, or magnify,
the rest of construction as being a caricature.

while I am not attempting a McQue-esque Remora, it is bound to have a certain quality which will make ladies blush, children giggle, and grown men squirm in their seats.

appreciate the tip off to the heat exchanger & cooling system. sounds like the perfect place to add some hose & sea cocks details.

thanks again.
RobinNilsson
Staff MemberTOS Moderator
KITMAKER NETWORK
Visit this Community
Stockholm, Sweden
Joined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 4,849 posts
Armorama: 4,105 posts
Posted: Tuesday, January 08, 2019 - 09:13 PM UTC
A ship/boat can have a long service life, the older type of fishing boats like this one could get 40 to 50 years old.
New equipment gets added to follow regulations, a 40 year old boat with a new radar set is not a problem.
Construction details tend to be very similar so deck details can be copied from any ship of that region.
The manufacturers of winches would have sold their products to many shipyards.
The consequence of this is that if you are not modelling a specific ship at a specific date you can copy details from similar ships.
Many ships got rebuilt, what started as an ocean trawler could end up as a supply/refueling tanker working in a large port and when it retires some "enthusiast" buys it and converts it to a floating home.


Another thought: There could have been surplus bulldozers sitting in various collection areas in Europe after the war and maybe some of the engines from those bulldozers were salvaged for other usage, for instance to power small trawlers
/ Robin
165thspc
#0
Visit this Community
Kentucky, United States
Joined: April 13, 2011
KitMaker: 8,301 posts
Armorama: 7,735 posts
Posted: Wednesday, January 09, 2019 - 04:43 AM UTC
Not a "floaty thing" type of guy but loving this thread - talking about possible post-war usage of various engines and the changes necessary to convert them to marine applications!

F.Y.I. - the Mirror Models' engine is missing its' fuel injectors on the top of the cylinders but these are easily scratched. The similar MiniArt dozer engine does include the injectors as part of the kit.
RobinNilsson
Staff MemberTOS Moderator
KITMAKER NETWORK
Visit this Community
Stockholm, Sweden
Joined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 4,849 posts
Armorama: 4,105 posts
Posted: Wednesday, January 09, 2019 - 05:34 AM UTC
Thanks for the warning about those injectors.
I have some of the Miniart dozers so I can use that as template to scratch some injectors if they are visible with the hood down.

/ Robin
165thspc
#0
Visit this Community
Kentucky, United States
Joined: April 13, 2011
KitMaker: 8,301 posts
Armorama: 7,735 posts
Posted: Wednesday, January 09, 2019 - 06:13 AM UTC
I will admit, those injectors are hardly visible except if the builder chooses to run with the hood removed.

However I am a bit crazy in that regard and often find myself adding "invisible" detail to my models! I suspect the fact that the injectors are so hard to see explains why Mirror choose to leave then off the engine.

southpier
Visit this Community
Alberta, Canada
Joined: December 11, 2009
KitMaker: 129 posts
Armorama: 75 posts
Posted: Wednesday, January 09, 2019 - 12:18 PM UTC

Quoted Text

(I) often find myself adding "invisible" detail...



seems perfectly logical to me. I have a myriad of HO scale buildings with interiors barely visible through a window. but for some reason I smile inside when I look at them. and dog-gone-it, that's what's important to ME!
RobinNilsson
Staff MemberTOS Moderator
KITMAKER NETWORK
Visit this Community
Stockholm, Sweden
Joined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 4,849 posts
Armorama: 4,105 posts
Posted: Wednesday, January 09, 2019 - 08:42 PM UTC
While we are on the subject of invisible detailing:
I heard a story many moons ago about an aircraft modeller who had seen judges at contests using dentists mirrors to look up into open hatches on parked aircraft.
He built some US WW II bomber with open bomb hatches (the belly hatches) and as part of the detailing of the bomb bay he had a crew member with his bare bottom showing (taking a dump or showing the twin moons).
/ Robin
Frenchy
Visit this Community
Rhone, France
Joined: December 02, 2002
KitMaker: 11,833 posts
Armorama: 11,629 posts
Posted: Wednesday, January 09, 2019 - 11:31 PM UTC
Talking about available 1/35th scale engines that would fit the bill, the Verlinden ones may be worth considering (no need to buy a whole truck kit )

#524


Another option :

#1592



Real Model has released a White 666 engine as well



H.P.
southpier
Visit this Community
Alberta, Canada
Joined: December 11, 2009
KitMaker: 129 posts
Armorama: 75 posts
Posted: Thursday, January 10, 2019 - 12:08 AM UTC

Quoted Text

...
a White 666 engine as well...




makes me ponder if a lady is bad luck on a ship, what chance would it have with a "666" powerplant?
RobinNilsson
Staff MemberTOS Moderator
KITMAKER NETWORK
Visit this Community
Stockholm, Sweden
Joined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 4,849 posts
Armorama: 4,105 posts
Posted: Thursday, January 10, 2019 - 12:10 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

...
a White 666 engine as well...




makes me ponder if a lady is bad luck on a ship, what chance would it have with a "666" powerplant?



The power of an old 666 .....

Just keep the low rpm / high torque in mind
/ Robin
southpier
Visit this Community
Alberta, Canada
Joined: December 11, 2009
KitMaker: 129 posts
Armorama: 75 posts
Posted: Thursday, January 10, 2019 - 06:33 AM UTC
as much as it may rankle the true boatophiles in the group, I am actually heartened by this post:

http://www.oldmarineengine.com/discus/messages/2/86.html

gives me hope that at least in my imagine-ered world, it could be done.
Frenchy
Visit this Community
Rhone, France
Joined: December 02, 2002
KitMaker: 11,833 posts
Armorama: 11,629 posts
Posted: Thursday, January 10, 2019 - 08:04 AM UTC

Quoted Text

makes me ponder if a lady is bad luck on a ship, what chance would it have with a "666" powerplant?



If you're superstitious, you can always say the engine is from a Corbitt 50SD6

H.P.
RobinNilsson
Staff MemberTOS Moderator
KITMAKER NETWORK
Visit this Community
Stockholm, Sweden
Joined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 4,849 posts
Armorama: 4,105 posts
Posted: Thursday, January 10, 2019 - 08:06 AM UTC

Quoted Text

as much as it may rankle the true boatophiles in the group, I am actually heartened by this post:

http://www.oldmarineengine.com/discus/messages/2/86.html

gives me hope that at least in my imagine-ered world, it could be done.



There are marine engines and there are marine engines.
An engine from an ordinary car works in a small and relatively fast pleasure craft. The heavy, low rpm, high torque engines works for heavier boats. There is a huge difference between a 40-50 foot offshore racer and a 40-50 foot tugboat. The racing engine could even have more horsepower than the tugboat but the racing engine wouldn't last long in the tug.
Compare a sportscar, a truck and a bulldozer/excavator.
/ Robin
Frenchy
Visit this Community
Rhone, France
Joined: December 02, 2002
KitMaker: 11,833 posts
Armorama: 11,629 posts
Posted: Thursday, January 10, 2019 - 08:28 AM UTC
The Detroit Diesel 6-71 engine, used in pairs to power the M4A2 Sherman Tank and the M10 Tank Destroyer was also used with the LCVP (Landing Craft, Vehicle Personal) :





LCVP engine bay



http://usautoindustryworldwartwo.com/General%20Motors/detroit-diesel.htm

The Tank Workshop has released a 1/35 GM 6046 engine (Twin 6-71) :


The kit number is 350058

H.P.