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Armor/AFV: Modern - USA
Modern Armor, AFVs, and Support vehicles.
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Paint Question
Denimo
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British Columbia, Canada
Joined: August 29, 2017
KitMaker: 102 posts
Armorama: 92 posts
Posted: Saturday, January 19, 2019 - 05:28 AM UTC
Got some great help with my last question so here goes.......

Ive read all kinds of opinions on the correct paint for U S vehicle used in ODS, but is there a range of shades that were used that can link with Vallejo acrylics?

I have Vallejo's IAF Sand, Ivory, Iraqi Sand and good old Sand Primer.

Also Tamiya Desert Sand? But i prefer Vallejo products.

Any suggestions? My build will be AFVs M35A2.

Denimo
Scarred
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Washington, United States
Joined: March 11, 2016
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Posted: Saturday, January 19, 2019 - 06:08 AM UTC
Something like this?
https://acrylicosvallejo.com/en/producto/hobby/sets/afv/us-modern-desert-colors-71209-es/
Denimo
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British Columbia, Canada
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Posted: Sunday, January 20, 2019 - 05:19 AM UTC



Thanks, ill check that out.
U-mark
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Michigan, United States
Joined: January 04, 2017
KitMaker: 116 posts
Armorama: 82 posts
Posted: Sunday, January 20, 2019 - 06:03 AM UTC
Awhile back I read an article written by an ophthalmologist who stated no two people see color exactly the same way. What looks like the correct shade of a color to me may not seem right to someone else. I live about 10 miles from the army's Tank Automotive Command Headquarters, they always have a few vehicles on display out in front of the building. One day a few years ago as I was driving by I noticed they had an M1( 105mm equipped), a Humvee and an Bradley. all were painted Sand and all were slightly but noticeably different hues. I no longer sweat what color is the perfect match for what I need, I build for fun and relaxation not to win the IPMS nationals and certainly not to please the guys at the club that never do anything but criticize others work. I've come to the conclusion that if it looks right to me I go with it. That said, lately I've been using Hataka lacquer HTK-C090 Sand for OIF and HTK-C238 Desert Tan for ODS vehicles. I am becoming a real fan of lacquers. The finish is much more durable than enamels or acrylics.
Armorsmith
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Pennsylvania, United States
Joined: April 09, 2015
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Posted: Sunday, January 20, 2019 - 06:24 AM UTC
I agree with Mark. The "right color" question is like beauty, in the eye of the beholder. Don't sweat it. If it looks right it's probably close enough. You can take paint from the same lot, paint several objects with it and they will all look different. As far as contest are concerned, unless the color is way off in right field it's not a big factor, at least not when I judge.
Denimo
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British Columbia, Canada
Joined: August 29, 2017
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Posted: Sunday, January 20, 2019 - 08:07 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Awhile back I read an article written by an ophthalmologist who stated no two people see color exactly the same way. What looks like the correct shade of a color to me may not seem right to someone else. I live about 10 miles from the army's Tank Automotive Command Headquarters, they always have a few vehicles on display out in front of the building. One day a few years ago as I was driving by I noticed they had an M1( 105mm equipped), a Humvee and an Bradley. all were painted Sand and all were slightly but noticeably different hues. I no longer sweat what color is the perfect match for what I need, I build for fun and relaxation not to win the IPMS nationals and certainly not to please the guys at the club that never do anything but criticize others work. I've come to the conclusion that if it looks right to me I go with it. That said, lately I've been using Hataka lacquer HTK-C090 Sand for OIF and HTK-C238 Desert Tan for ODS vehicles. I am becoming a real fan of lacquers. The finish is much more durable than enamels or acrylics.

Denimo
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British Columbia, Canada
Joined: August 29, 2017
KitMaker: 102 posts
Armorama: 92 posts
Posted: Sunday, January 20, 2019 - 08:08 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Awhile back I read an article written by an ophthalmologist who stated no two people see color exactly the same way. What looks like the correct shade of a color to me may not seem right to someone else. I live about 10 miles from the army's Tank Automotive Command Headquarters, they always have a few vehicles on display out in front of the building. One day a few years ago as I was driving by I noticed they had an M1( 105mm equipped), a Humvee and an Bradley. all were painted Sand and all were slightly but noticeably different hues. I no longer sweat what color is the perfect match for what I need, I build for fun and relaxation not to win the IPMS nationals and certainly not to please the guys at the club that never do anything but criticize others work. I've come to the conclusion that if it looks right to me I go with it. That said, lately I've been using Hataka lacquer HTK-C090 Sand for OIF and HTK-C238 Desert Tan for ODS vehicles. I am becoming a real fan of lacquers. The finish is much more durable than enamels or acrylics.


Denimo
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British Columbia, Canada
Joined: August 29, 2017
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Posted: Sunday, January 20, 2019 - 08:09 AM UTC
Denimo
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British Columbia, Canada
Joined: August 29, 2017
KitMaker: 102 posts
Armorama: 92 posts
Posted: Sunday, January 20, 2019 - 08:11 AM UTC
Thanks for the input. Ive been using Vallejo model air cos i prefer acrylics. Isnt there a big fume issue with laquers?
warlock109
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Utah, United States
Joined: February 05, 2004
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Posted: Sunday, January 20, 2019 - 08:22 AM UTC
Plus, remember that the sand color used in Desert Storm was more yellow and current sand is more pink. Don't know why they changed, but must have thought the current color worked better.
U-mark
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Michigan, United States
Joined: January 04, 2017
KitMaker: 116 posts
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Posted: Sunday, January 20, 2019 - 11:25 AM UTC
Yes,lacquers and enamels both should only be sprayed with a booth venting outside, acrylics probably should be too for that matter. I have a portable booth with a vent hose that fits in the kitchen window. I guess it's just personal preference. I have better luck with lacquers. They "stick" better than acrylics and enamels and resist scratches better, and getting back to eyesight, I just think they look better. I also found I don't need to clear cote the model before weathering.
U-mark
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Michigan, United States
Joined: January 04, 2017
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Posted: Sunday, January 20, 2019 - 11:32 AM UTC
Jerry, I don't know how true this is, but I read that the original ODS sand hand a tendency to fade rather quickly.
M4A1Sherman
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New York, United States
Joined: May 02, 2013
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Posted: Sunday, January 20, 2019 - 12:00 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Awhile back I read an article written by an ophthalmologist who stated no two people see color exactly the same way. What looks like the correct shade of a color to me may not seem right to someone else. I live about 10 miles from the army's Tank Automotive Command Headquarters, they always have a few vehicles on display out in front of the building. One day a few years ago as I was driving by I noticed they had an M1( 105mm equipped), a Humvee and an Bradley. all were painted Sand and all were slightly but noticeably different hues. I no longer sweat what color is the perfect match for what I need, I build for fun and relaxation not to win the IPMS nationals and certainly not to please the guys at the club that never do anything but criticize others work. I've come to the conclusion that if it looks right to me I go with it. That said, lately I've been using Hataka lacquer HTK-C090 Sand for OIF and HTK-C238 Desert Tan for ODS vehicles. I am becoming a real fan of lacquers. The finish is much more durable than enamels or acrylics.



As far as what the ophthalmologist said, NOTHING COULD BE TRUER, PERIOD!

"Flat" military-spec paints, whatever their composition may be in real life, fade pretty quickly. Light colors become noticeably more filthy-looking for obvious reasons. Darker colors tend to take on a more "washed-out" look. Glossy or semi-matte colors tend to stay closer to their original hue for a comparatively longer time. There is no such thing as complete uniformity with flat military paints between any two vehicles that you may come across, even at the factories where they were just built a few minutes ago.

A couple of years ago, a deer ran into the left fender of my car. I needed a replacement fender and headlight assembly, which in New York State, is a "non-chargeable" as far as automobile insurance is concerned. This is because there are so many deer in rural New York State. New York State reimburses any bona-fide "deer-loss" claim to whichever automobile insurance company New York State residents/vehicle-owners carry on their cars. So, long-story short, in my own case there are FOUR DIFFERENT ALTERNATES for the color of my car, across the board from different auto paint manufacturers. Even then, the body shop had to "mix-and-match" the paint mixture in order to come up with an EXACT match for my car. On deer-loss claims in New York State, the insurance companies never quibble over the "Tint and Blend" charges that are a part of the estimates of said deer-loss claims...

Even though certain military FS-paint numbers are called out in the specs for any given vehicle, do you think that it really matters if the paint looks a little bit more pinkish or yellowish or greenish to the Motor Pool Sergeant??? Gimme A (expletive) BREAK!!!

And if this whole paint discussion is starting to wear on you, go read the nit-picking threads that the "Panzer-Heads" post about their German "Three-Color" camo schemes!

I NEVER use any paint "straight-out-of-the-bottle" for any of my military models, whether it may be my 1/48 aircraft, my 1/35 armor and/or vehicles, the various scales in my naval ships, or my figurines, which range from 1/48 on up to 120mm. And when it comes to my HO Steam Era locomotives and trains, my same "rules" apply. I pre and post shade my military and train stuff, and i go easy on the weathering, except on my "well-used" HO Steam Locomotives, so NOTHING winds up remaining in its original "factory-fresh" color, anyway. EXCEPT if i want to depict a "factory-fresh" project.

As several other contributors in this thread have said, "DON'T SWEAT IT"...

PS- I no longer build to please other people, either. As it turns out, a lot of the "know-it-alls" at the contests and clubs really don't know very much at all...
Kevlar06
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Washington, United States
Joined: March 15, 2009
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Posted: Sunday, January 20, 2019 - 03:27 PM UTC

Quoted Text

]Awhile back I read an article written by an ophthalmologist who stated no two people see color exactly the same way. What looks like the correct shade of a color to me may not seem right to someone else....

....As far as what the ophthalmologist said, NOTHING COULD BE TRUER, PERIOD!


.....As several other contributors in this thread have said, "DON'T SWEAT IT"...

......PS- I no longer build to please other people, either. As it turns out, a lot of the "know-it-alls" at the contests and clubs really don't know very much at all...



These are all true statements. Many of us have differences in vision ranging from complete to subtle color blindness. It's especially true for males. I for one have difficulty differentiating between very dark blues and blacks, and very dark greens and browns-- the eye doctors have told me it's a common condition, and many of us have it weteher we know it or not. The only way I can 100% accurately identify a color is in mild sunlight or under a 5000k lightbulb. But I've seen many so-called "experts" at shows claiming to know the exact color. The simple truth is, color chips, charts, shades and graphs can be used a basic guides, but the "real thing" is subject to so many variables in the "real world" that shade can can vary from vehicle to vehicle, and even on the same vehicle. My troops used to thin enamels with gasoline, which would cause a color shift for sure. When an "expert" starts talking about subtle shade differences, I start judging his credentials more than the model. Bottle colors should be used as a basic starting point, that's all.
VR, Russ
Denimo
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British Columbia, Canada
Joined: August 29, 2017
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Posted: Tuesday, February 26, 2019 - 06:56 AM UTC
Thanks everyone for the input and comments. Really helpful.
HeavyArty
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Florida, United States
Joined: May 16, 2002
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Posted: Tuesday, February 26, 2019 - 07:53 AM UTC
Maybe a little late to the party. I guess I missed the discussion on the initial go-around, but...

As to the opthamoligists' opinion, I partially agree that colors vary based on many factors; light, time of day, the viewer, etc... I do think you should start with the closest color to the actual color standard and go from there though. There are actual colors and the military does follow them. Even the motor sergeant, who I have found after 23+ years in the Army can be one of the most strick sticklers on color to make sure all "his" vehicles look good.

So here are the colors I recommend.

During Operation Desert Storm (ODS, '90-'91) the colors varried. For vehicles that were already sand or were painted sand in the US, Testors Model Master Sand (FS33531) is correct. Most of the vehicles that arrived and were not sand were quickly repainted sand in Saudi Arabia using a sand-colored paint that was locally bought. It also tended to peal and fade quickly. Testors US Army/Marine Gulf Armor Sand is a pretty good color match for this.

For more modern vehicles in OIF and beyond, Testors Model Master Sand (FS33531) is correct. Once weathered and dirtied up, it will be a dead-on match for current CARC Tan.
165thspc
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Kentucky, United States
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Posted: Tuesday, February 26, 2019 - 08:13 AM UTC
I fully agreed with all that was said above.

As far as modern vehicles go even a very light layer of fine dust after a short march will change the intensity of a vehicle color. Any weathering you do to your model vehicles SHOULD at least alter the color intensity to some degree.

As to German WWII vehicles; when the folks at the Patton Museum where taking the 251/7 apart for restoration, upon lifting the floor plates it was immediately apparent that different component sub-assemblies had come from different suppliers. The paint shades of the these sub-components varied more than a bit. Of course this was in the days before computer color matching. While all the paints had been mixed to the exact same Wehrmacht specifications, the variations caused by human error combined with slight differences in the formulation of the base mixing colors still produced a literal spectrum of shades, all being called Dunkelgelb.