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Armor/AFV: Axis - WWII
Armor and ground forces of the Axis forces during World War II.
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Best German motorcycle kit?
Bravo36
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Posted: Saturday, February 09, 2019 - 05:57 AM UTC
Opinions please. In my latest project I need to add a German motorcycle (1/35, Normandy). I haven't built one in a while and it was one of the old Tamiya kits. Which manufacturer/kit is the best, these days? Detail and accuracy. BMW, Zundapp, whatever...
Thanks
panzerbob01
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Posted: Saturday, February 09, 2019 - 06:11 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Opinions please. In my latest project I need to add a German motorcycle (1/35, Normandy). I haven't built one in a while and it was one of the old Tamiya kits. Which manufacturer/kit is the best, these days? Detail and accuracy. BMW, Zundapp, whatever...
Thanks



I like the Great Wall Zundapp and BMW w/ side-car kits. Very detailed OOTB, molded well, build well, have nice PE wheel-spokes, and are essentially accurate to the actual bikes and s-c. And, with a little wire or solder or stretched sprue for cabling, can really pop.

But the Zvezda, Tamiya kits are a bit less parts-rich and build well and look good, too. And of course, adding details to any make things better. The old Tamiya kit remains a solid, well-done item and always looks good, specially with a little tweaking, IMHO.

I guess it really depends on what you want - if it's to be the focal player and you want pretty much the max, go GW.

Just my opinion, of course! Bob
justsendit
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Posted: Saturday, February 09, 2019 - 06:27 AM UTC
I’m with Bob on the Great Wall Hobby (L3510) ‘German BMW R75 w/sidecar’ kit. Lots of really nice details — especially the PE spokes!

Cheers!🍺
—mike
alanmac
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Posted: Saturday, February 09, 2019 - 07:06 AM UTC
Hi

Another vote for the Great Wall Hobby kits for the Zundapp or BMW combination. Just don't buy the solo bikes, they are a fantasy model, never actually existing.





Either one of the above build to cracking detailed little examples
M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Saturday, February 09, 2019 - 07:19 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Opinions please. In my latest project I need to add a German motorcycle (1/35, Normandy). I haven't built one in a while and it was one of the old Tamiya kits. Which manufacturer/kit is the best, these days? Detail and accuracy. BMW, Zundapp, whatever...
Thanks



Hi, Ralph!

I have to agree with Bob and Mike; The GREAT WALL BMW R-75 and Zuendapp KS-750 are THE BEST 1/35 WWII German Motorcycle kits that money can buy. Each of these motorcycles are available as "conventional" two-wheeled units and also with Sidecars- I bought these kits back when they were first introduced under the LIONROAR brand. You should be able to find them under either label as near as your computer keyboard via the various Asian Ebay vendors or through any reputable Hobby Outlet.

I have one of each kit, and they are DEFINITELY worth the "price-of-entry"...

The plastic parts moldings are are crisp and the details are very fine. Each kit includes PE, which is also very fine and petite, necessarily so for 1/35 scale. Thoughtfully included in each kit are plastic shallow-coned "masters", with which you form the "dish" in your wire-spoked wheels by carefully pressing your wire-spoked wheels over the "master". I had no problems in getting the right "shape"; some guys dislike PE, but I've had many years of experience in working with PE. Consequently, I LOVE THE STUFF!

You want to be careful and take your time with ALL of the PE parts in these 'cycle kits because these PE parts and especially the wire-spoked wheels, are very delicate. However, if you follow the instructions, you shouldn't run into any problems. The kits themselves build up into beautiful little models; certainly, they are miniatures of the "real thing". A lighted magnifier lamp certainly helps in construction...

Good Luck & Have Fun!
alanmac
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Posted: Saturday, February 09, 2019 - 07:26 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Each of these motorcycles are available as "conventional" two-wheeled units



Which sorry to say are completely inaccurate, never made. A guess they just followed Tamiya who made the same mistake.
justsendit
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Posted: Saturday, February 09, 2019 - 07:31 AM UTC
Hey Dennis,
My Great Wall Hobby (L3510) ‘German BMW R75 w/sidecar’ kit actually came with pre-bent PE spokes and they seem a bit more sturdy than the softer PE which I’ve been accustomed to — bonus!
M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Saturday, February 09, 2019 - 07:45 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Hi

Another vote for the Great Wall Hobby kits for the Zundapp or BMW combination. Just don't buy the solo bikes, they are a fantasy model, never actually existing.





Either one of the above build to cracking detailed little examples



I'm sorry, but I really hate to "burst your bubble", but I would have to disagree on the "solo" bike statement. My Onkel Fritz, (on my Mom's side of my family) was a Luftwaffe "Dispatch-Rider", serving in France during WWII. He rode nearly every type of German-made medium-to-heavy motorcycle-type during that conflict, INCLUDING the "non-existent" SOLO BMW R-75 and Zuendapp KS-750 types, and also the "BEIWAGEN", ("Sidecar") models. He also rode "Beute" French, (Hotchkiss) and British-types, (BSA and Enfields). My Mom's Onkel Ludwig served in various Pz.Kpfw.IV-types, also in France...

Just thought I'd share that with you...
M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Saturday, February 09, 2019 - 07:52 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Hey Dennis,
My Great Wall Hobby (L3510) ‘German BMW R75 w/sidecar’ kit actually came with pre-bent PE spokes and they seem a bit more sturdy than the softer PE I’ve been accustomed to — bonus!



WOW!!! That's GREAT!!! MAYBE I should have waited for the GREAT WALL kits! But "who knew" that GREAT WALL would include the "pre-bent" wire wheels, which would have SAVED ME A FEW GRAY HAIRS!!!



Otherwise, these are the SAME kits as the earlier LIONROAR kits, right down to the identical "box-art"!
alanmac
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Posted: Saturday, February 09, 2019 - 08:09 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Hi

Another vote for the Great Wall Hobby kits for the Zundapp or BMW combination. Just don't buy the solo bikes, they are a fantasy model, never actually existing.





Either one of the above build to cracking detailed little examples



I'm sorry, but I really hate to "burst your bubble", but I would have to disagree on the "solo" bike statement. My Onkel Fritz, (on my Mom's side of my family) was a Luftwaffe "Dispatch-Rider", serving in France during WWII. He rode nearly every type of German-made medium-to-heavy motorcycle-type during that conflict, INCLUDING the "non-existent" SOLO BMW R-75 and Zuendapp KS-750 types, and also the "BEIWAGEN", ("Sidecar") models. He also rode "Beute" French, (Hotchkiss) and British-types, (BSA and Enfields). My Mom's Onkel Ludwig served in various Pz.Kpfw.IV-types, also in France...

Just thought I'd share that with you...



Well they must have been a real out of this world ride because they were never made, sorry to burst your bubble Dennis. it's been discussed at length on this and other forums. The whole design was based on it being a three wheeled motorcycle, the chassis, the steering angle, weight distribution, and finally the most important part, the engines shaft drive drove both the "rear wheels" not only the drivers one but a shaft went over to the sidecar wheel to drive that to. Sure there are plenty of solo Zundapps and BMW's its just these were not two of them.

You could always try a search to find a picture of these solo bikes which I wish you luck with as up until now nobody has come up with one so far. They didn't even manage to fulfill the quota of combinations ordered due to shortages and allied bombing.
M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Saturday, February 09, 2019 - 08:18 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Hi

Another vote for the Great Wall Hobby kits for the Zundapp or BMW combination. Just don't buy the solo bikes, they are a fantasy model, never actually existing.





Either one of the above build to cracking detailed little examples



I'm sorry, but I really hate to "burst your bubble", but I would have to disagree on the "solo" bike statement. My Onkel Fritz, (on my Mom's side of my family) was a Luftwaffe "Dispatch-Rider", serving in France during WWII. He rode nearly every type of German-made medium-to-heavy motorcycle-type during that conflict, INCLUDING the "non-existent" SOLO BMW R-75 and Zuendapp KS-750 types, and also the "BEIWAGEN", ("Sidecar") models. He also rode "Beute" French, (Hotchkiss) and British-types, (BSA and Enfields). My Mom's Onkel Ludwig served in various Pz.Kpfw.IV-types, also in France...

Just thought I'd share that with you...



Well they must have been a real out of this world ride because they were never made, sorry to burst your bubble Dennis. it's been discussed at length on this and other forums. The whole design was based on it being a three wheeled motorcycle, the chassis, the steering angle, weight distribution, and finally the most important part, the engines shaft drive drove both the "rear wheels" not only the drivers one but a shaft went over to the sidecar wheel to drive that to. Sure there are plenty of solo Zundapps and BMW's its just these were not two of them.





You're not bursting any bubble of mine, my friend-

Could it be that the "experts" neglected to mention that quite a few of the "Beiwagen" were DISCONNECTED from the bikes themselves as "field-mods" for the sole reason of lightening them for the "Dispatch Riders"..? Onkel Fritz had the scars on his body to "prove" my point, if you get my meaning...

Anyway, I think that we CAN agree that these 1/35 LIONROAR/GREAT WALL WWII German motorcycle kits are the best of the breed. IMO, the TAMIYA, ITALERI and ZVEZDA kits CAN be built-up into fine little models, but they DO need a little bit more TLC to get them to the "lofty altitude" of the LIONROAR/GREAT WALL kits...
alanmac
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Posted: Saturday, February 09, 2019 - 08:26 AM UTC
It's not the experts, it's the facts, no solo bikes were ever produced. As for "stories" from days gone by that can be put in the same catagory as US soldiers upon seeing any German tank in France describing it as a Tiger, or a field gun as an 88.

If they did want to create a lighter bike for despatch , why go to the bother of removing the sidecar, just use a lighter solo motorcycle.
Sean50
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Posted: Saturday, February 09, 2019 - 09:15 AM UTC
If you can find them, the various Vulcan models are quite nice.
They're a bit different from the norm, as well.

Cheers

Sean
M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Saturday, February 09, 2019 - 08:15 PM UTC

Quoted Text

It's not the experts, it's the facts, no solo bikes were ever produced. As for "stories" from days gone by that can be put in the same catagory as US soldiers upon seeing any German tank in France describing it as a Tiger, or a field gun as an 88.

If they did want to create a lighter bike for despatch , why go to the bother of removing the sidecar, just use a lighter solo motorcycle.



a. Onkel Fritz WAS NOT a "storyteller". He ALWAYS "told it like it was"...

b. I can't prove it now, but Onkel Fritz came to visit us from Germany when we still lived in Queens, NY back in 1971.. He brought a pile of wartime photos with him, (at my request, through letters that he exchanged with my Mom), one of which showed him sitting astride one of the R-75s that he rode, WITHOUT its "Beiwagen" attached. This photo was taken from THE RIGHT SIDE of the bike, and sure enough, no "Beiwagen", and the Differential Case could clearly be seen. I asked Onkel Fritz about that, (in German, of course), and he answered me that he "really didn't know", and that "he only rode them and didn't fix them"... (shrug)

I'm not arguing the point you made about R-75s and KS-750s never having been built as SOLOS, but I AM defending what Onkel Fritz TOLD me and SHOWED me... Onkel Fritz took ALL of his wartime photos back to Germany with him when he traveled back to his home. He passed on soon after his visit to the U.S, and I have NO IDEA of what became of his treasure trove of wartime photos. One of these candid photos showed General Kesselring debarking from his personal Ju.52 Transport in 1940. A huge open-topped Maybach Tourer was parked nearby. There was no mistaking "Smiling Albert" and his famous grin...

There was also a photo of Onkel Fritz and some of his "Kameraden" posed around and sitting atop of an old French FT-17. Someone had printed: "FRANKREICH 1940", in what I presume to be chalk, on the right side of the Cast Turret...

I'd give A LOT to have these original prints in my possession...

c. Wartime exigencies by 1944-'45, especially FOR THE GERMANS, demanded that they use WHAT WAS AVAILABLE WHEN IT WAS AVAILABLE, and photographs don't lie... I'm not talking about UFOs, here; merely a few BMW R-75s and Zuendapp KS-750s. Say what you will, but I'm going to stick to my guns on this one...
iamheaminot
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Posted: Saturday, February 09, 2019 - 08:26 PM UTC
Love the memories of your uncle Dennis.
M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Saturday, February 09, 2019 - 08:37 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Love the memories of your uncle Dennis.



Hi, Rod!

Thanks much! My Onkel Ludwig served in France as a Tanker in Pz.Kpfw.IVs. He also came to visit us about a year after Onkel Fritz had passed on. Onkel Ludwig told me that in his unit, their BIGGEST fears were the US/Allied JABOS and the use of "Willy-Pete" (White Phosphorous) Rounds by US Tankers to defeat German Armor... I suppose SOME people will have to argue THAT point with me, too...


My Dad, (He was Ukrainian), served in the Polish Horse Artillery in 1939, when the Germans invaded Poland. He was captured within 2 weeks of the beginning of hostilities. HIS story of survival in the German concentration and work camps is incredible in the telling. Maybe I'll write a book, someday...

PS- My Mom's Stepfather worked as a precision-machinist at M.A.N., Augsburg... (U-Boat Diesel Engine Division)
Bravo36
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Posted: Sunday, February 10, 2019 - 07:25 AM UTC
Thanks folks, I'll pick up a Great Wall kit.

Sorry I started a bit of a kerfuffel.
I suggest you provide sources or photo evidence to back up your arguments.
alanmac
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Posted: Sunday, February 10, 2019 - 07:49 AM UTC
Hi Ralph

Glad to help. No worries regarding the "discussion" but to reiterate no solo bikes of those Great Wall KS 750 and R75 subjects were produced by the motorcycle manufacturers

As Sean mentioned there are the Vulcan brand kits available. Maybe not as well moulded as the GWH kits.

Here is some reviews of all discussed with pictures etc. from Terry Ashley's PMMS site

http://www.perthmilitarymodelling.com/reviews/vehicles/greatwall/l3508.html

http://www.perthmilitarymodelling.com/reviews/vehicles/greatwall/l3510.html

http://www.perthmilitarymodelling.com/reviews/vehicles/vulcanmodels/vsm56003.html

http://www.perthmilitarymodelling.com/reviews/vehicles/vulcanmodels/vsm56007.html

The Zundapp K800 looks very similar at a glance to the KS 750 and was used as a solo bike which could possibly be mistaken for the 750 maybe
M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Sunday, February 10, 2019 - 08:07 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Hi Ralph

Glad to help. No worries regarding the "discussion" but to reiterate no solo bikes of those Great Wall KS 750 and R75 subjects were produced by the motorcycle manufacturers

As Sean mentioned there are the Vulcan brand kits available. Maybe not as well moulded as the GWH kits.

Here is some reviews of all discussed with pictures etc. from Terry Ashley's PMMS site

http://www.perthmilitarymodelling.com/reviews/vehicles/greatwall/l3508.html

http://www.perthmilitarymodelling.com/reviews/vehicles/greatwall/l3510.html

http://www.perthmilitarymodelling.com/reviews/vehicles/vulcanmodels/vsm56003.html

http://www.perthmilitarymodelling.com/reviews/vehicles/vulcanmodels/vsm56007.html

The Zundapp K800 looks very similar at a glance to the KS 750 and was used as a solo bike which could possibly be mistaken for the 750 maybe



I appreciate your info pertaining to this little "discussion"; I just wish that I had the "Onkel Fritz photos" in my possession. Again, I'm not disputing the fact that no R-75s and KS-750s were manufactured as "solos". The nearly crippling accident that Onkel Fritz had towards the close of the war in Europe occurred while he was riding a BMW R-75 less "Beiwagen"... What more can I say

PS- The GREAT WALL/LIONROAR kits are THE WAY to fly, or I should say, ride...
alanmac
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Posted: Wednesday, October 30, 2019 - 08:43 AM UTC
Hi

Apologises in advance for resurrecting a thread going back to earlier in the year but reading further information over on Missing Lynx regarding the bikes never being used solo someone, an owner, with direct experience of the real thing I thought relevant to those seeking accuracy in their modelling efforts.

Quote from Paul Hocking

"Thanks for the comments, just to clarify the 12 kg differential in the rear hub of the KS 750 and R75 is the same item used on both machine types, its actually a Zundapp design.
Differentials are funny things, very clever but a bit mysterious in their function, for to work properly there must be a "load" applied, the load is usually the sidecar wheel being on the ground so there is resistance, the "mechanism" I mentioned is just a plate with some protrusions into the differential, it is fixed to where the sidecar drive would exit the differrential, but has the effect of being a "false load".

This very problem occured in Normandy this year, a friend and myself both took our BMW R75's to the 75th Anniversary events, one day his BMW simply glided to a halt, the engine was running ok, the drive shaft to the rear was turning ok, but no forward movement of the BMW.

Could not find or fix the problem over there, but back in the UK it transpired that one end of the drive shaft from the differential to the sidcar wheel hub had stripped its splines, so was just revolving and not engaging the sidecar wheel hub, so there was no load on the differential, and therefore neither the sidecar or rear wheel of the bike would revolve. "
Unquote.

Of course Dennis has become a self imposed exile to armorama, preferring to spend his time posting about wingy things so unlikely he'll respond but never say never.....
brekinapez
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Posted: Wednesday, October 30, 2019 - 12:49 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Of course Dennis has become a self imposed exile to armorama, preferring to spend his time posting about wingy things so unlikely he'll respond but never say never.....



I'll never know; I had to block him due to those egregiously written posts of his.
dpotter1
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Posted: Wednesday, October 30, 2019 - 02:45 PM UTC
And thank goodness for that self-imposed exile...
Nate_W
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Posted: Wednesday, October 30, 2019 - 02:51 PM UTC
Thank you for making this post. I'm going to be building my first German bike here relatively soon and wanted to know this ect thing. My default guess was going to be that KS750 from Great Wall Hobby.
warman_paos
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Posted: Wednesday, October 30, 2019 - 08:49 PM UTC
didn't want to interrupt you guys about solo bikes, but I have at least one picture from the net with something like that:

hope that I managed to upload pic
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Wednesday, October 30, 2019 - 09:20 PM UTC
Yes there were solo bikes, lots of them.
There were light solo bikes, medium solo bikes and heavy solo bikes.
The thing with the R-75 and K-750 was that they were specifically built with sidecars. A normal heavy bike can have a sidecar added. The R-75 and K-750 were built like a trike with the sidecar wheel also being powered, differential on the rear axle.

Light bikes (only as solos)
DKW RT 125 (125 cc)
Triumph BD 350 W (350 cc)
NSU 251 OS (250 cc)

Medium (only as solos?)
BMW R 4 (400 cc)
BMW R 35 (350 cc)
Victoria KR 35 WH (350 cc)
DKW NZ 350 (350 cc)

Heavy (these could also have sidecars, the gearboxes had different ratios with/without sidecars)
Zündapp K 500 W (500 cc)
Zündapp K 800 W (800 cc) only used with sidecar when on the eastern front, just as good as the R 12
Zündapp KS 600 W (600 cc)
BMW R 12 (750 cc) very popular machine
NSU 601 OSL (600 cc)
Victoria K. R. VI (600 cc)
Victoria KR 6 Bergmeister (600 cc)
Victoria KR 9 (500 cc)

Heavy with powered sidecar (differential needs blocking if sidecar is removed)
BMW R 75 (750 cc)
Zündapp KS 750 (750 cc)
These two were specifically developed for the Wehrmacht

The table above shows that there were other heavy bikes built without sidecars, one of them also had a larger (by 50 cc) engine than the R-75 or KS-750

By the looks of the "fender" on the front wheel and the position of the headlight I would say that the bike in the image above is a BMW R 35.


The R 75 had a support for the "fender" which extends in an arc above the sheet metal, protecting the front edge of the registration plate.

The KS-750 has a fender which does not extend so far down on the sides of the tire.

The front forks are also totally different.
/ Robin