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Armor/AFV: Modern - USA
Modern Armor, AFVs, and Support vehicles.
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Bumper code help needed for M60A3
Violetrock
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Posted: Sunday, February 17, 2019 - 07:57 AM UTC
Hello all, is the bumper code for the 1/1 CAV, 1st Armoured Division correct: 1▲1-1CAV

And what does A15 or B25 mean?

Thanks for help,

Thomas
Kevlar06
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Posted: Sunday, February 17, 2019 - 09:54 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Hello all, is the bumper code for the 1/1 CAV, 1st Armoured Division correct: 1▲1-1CAV

And what does A15 or B25 mean?

Thanks for help,

Thomas



1st AD vets are probably better suited to answer the question, but having been associated with the 1AD in a support role in the 90s, and having been an M60A1 platoon leader in the 70s in the 11th CAV, I think I can also address the question.
The Divisional marking would have been correct for the early 80s, but may have had some slight variations -- for instance it might have read "ACR" instead of "CAV" depending on the time period-- V Corps sent out an edict in early 1980 for that change. The A15 designation is for "A" Troop , 1st Platoon, tank #5. Similarly, the B25 is for B Troop, 2nd Platoon, tank #5. Commander's vehicles would almost always end in a "6" by the way. At least that's the way we did it in the 11th ACR in the 70s. At the Troop HQ level, the vehicles would have been A"5" for the XO, and A"6" for the CO-using single digits (First Sergeants usually didn't have a tank, and A"5" would likely have been the "blade" tank if the Troop was authorized one) hope this helps.
VR, Russ
Quartercav
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Posted: Sunday, February 17, 2019 - 10:57 AM UTC
Hello Thomas and Russ,

Russ is right.
In the 90s a division reconnaissance squadron troop consists of 4 platoons, 2 platoons equipped with Bradleys, the other ones with Abrams.
@Russ, I hope you enyoed your time in Fulda, Germany.
panamadan
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Posted: Sunday, February 17, 2019 - 01:55 PM UTC
I served in 1AD (Erlangen) and you are correct.
When the Army went to DIV86 (around 1984) the fifth tank in the platoon was taken away and and the #5 in the platoon was now gone.
Dan
Kevlar06
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Posted: Sunday, February 17, 2019 - 02:23 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Hello Thomas and Russ,

Russ is right.
In the 90s a division reconnaissance squadron troop consists of 4 platoons, 2 platoons equipped with Bradleys, the other ones with Abrams.
@Russ, I hope you enyoed your time in Fulda, Germany.



Andreas,
Actually, I was in Bad Kissingen with 2/11 ACR-- 1976-80. I did spend some time visiting Fulda though. And as a Battalion Comander in USAREUR 1996, My wife and I were invited to Fulda to take part in the "Blachorse Reunion" put on by the city. Fulda (and BK) are very beautiful cities. I'll never forget my time there.
VR, Russ
2CAVTrooper
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Posted: Sunday, February 17, 2019 - 05:21 PM UTC
The XO's track in a line company would be numbered A-55, while the CO would be A-66, and 1SG's M113 would be marked as A-77.

The wheeled vehicles for the XO, CO, and 1SG would be A-5, A-6, and A-7 respectively.
Kevlar06
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Posted: Sunday, February 17, 2019 - 05:47 PM UTC

Quoted Text

The XO's track in a line company would be numbered A-55, while the CO would be A-66, and 1SG's M113 would be marked as A-77.

The wheeled vehicles for the XO, CO, and 1SG would be A-5, A-6, and A-7 respectively.



You are right-- I'd forgotten the second "5" and "6" on the XO and COs tanks. But in the 11thCAV when I was there, the TO&E did not authorize an M113 for the 1SG-- his vehicle was an M151. The reason for this was the 1SG was responsible for the Adminisrative and Feeding of the troops when in the field, and it was thought he could do that better by using a 1/4 ton to work between the Troop and the Squadron Trains.
VR, Russ
Violetrock
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Posted: Sunday, February 17, 2019 - 07:47 PM UTC
Thanks for your help!

There are some pictures on military database, which show a road march exercise in 1982. The bumper codes are not very legigble, therefore I asked.

Now, where do I get a M47 rear stowage bin from? 1/1CAV had them mounted and my M60A3 is nearly finished.

Thomas
skyshark
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Posted: Monday, February 18, 2019 - 03:31 AM UTC
It was the tank Plt Sgt. 5 tanks per Plt. 1 Plt LDR, 1 Plt Sgt or the most senior NCO in the Plt and 3 E-6 or E-5's were the 3 other Tank Commanders. 1st PLT A-11, A-12, A-13, A-14 and A-15. And the A25 would be the Plt Sgt in 2nd Plt.
Kevlar06
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Posted: Monday, February 18, 2019 - 05:19 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Thanks for your help!

There are some pictures on military database, which show a road march exercise in 1982. The bumper codes are not very legigble, therefore I asked.

Now, where do I get a M47 rear stowage bin from? 1/1CAV had them mounted and my M60A3 is nearly finished.

Thomas



Thomas, yep, there are two items commonly left off Models of CAV M60A1s and A3s---the "47 Box" and the "Drip Pan". We got our 47 boxes from French M47s that were railheaded into Grafenwohr for targets in 1976. They were all passed down when we converted to A3s in May 1980. I'd recommend the old Italieri M47 kit for a box, the newer Takom kits would be rather expensive to sacrifice a box from. Don't forget a Drip Pan too-- commonly, the lower 3rd of a 55 gallon drum, with a handle welded to the lip-- usually found tied down on the right or left rear fender.
VR, Russ
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Posted: Monday, February 18, 2019 - 07:08 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I served in 1AD (Erlangen) and you are correct.
When the Army went to DIV86 (around 1984) the fifth tank in the platoon was taken away and and the #5 in the platoon was now gone.
Dan


You are correct, it was the 1984-85 time frame when the H-series MTOE was being replaced by the J-series MTOE.

The major change to armor battalions was the number of tanks in a company and the number of companies in a battalion.

Under the H-series, there were three tank companies (A, B, C) with five tanks per platoon (one blade tank per platoon) plus the HQ tank section (commander and XO) for 17 tanks per company.

Under the J-series, they reduced the number of tanks per platoon to four, with a total of 14 tanks per company. The remaining tanks were grouped into a fourth, Delta Company.

H-series tank platoons were grouped into the light section, -11 & -12 led by the platoon leader and the -13, -14, -15 heavy tank section led by the platoon sergeant. (-21, etc. for 2nd plt and -31 for third).

J-series the sections were even with -11 & -12, -13 & -14.

M60A3TTS tanks didn't stay in the five tank platoon for very long before moving to the four tank platoon.

I have some photos of my old A3 in Reforger 88
thathaway3
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Posted: Monday, February 18, 2019 - 08:11 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Hello all, is the bumper code for the 1/1 CAV, 1st Armoured Division correct: 1▲1-1CAV

And what does A15 or B25 mean?

Thanks for help,

Thomas




The Divisional marking would have been correct for the early 80s, but may have had some slight variations -- for instance it might have read "ACR" instead of "CAV" depending on the time period-- V Corps sent out an edict in early 1980 for that change.



It would depend on the time period. During the period from 1972-1977, I was in the 8th ID, part of V Corps. Our Divisional Cav Squadron was 3rd Squadron, 8th CAV. Obviously during this period they were NOT equipped with the M60A3, but the A1. It could have changed, but during this time frame OUR Divisional Cav Squadron bumper numbers were 8-3R8 on the left side with Troop and vehicle (B-1 etc.) on the right side. I believe the "R" stood for "recon". But as suggested this scheme could well have been change for the later time period when the M60A3 was fielded.
Charlie-66
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Posted: Monday, February 18, 2019 - 08:45 AM UTC

Quoted Text

The XO's track in a line company would be numbered A-55, while the CO would be A-66, and 1SG's M113 would be marked as A-77.

The wheeled vehicles for the XO, CO, and 1SG would be A-5, A-6, and A-7 respectively.



I was Company XO and TC'd the blade tank in heavy 2/3 ACR from 84-86. My bumper number was H-65
Tankrider
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Posted: Monday, February 18, 2019 - 11:14 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I served in 1AD (Erlangen) and you are correct.
When the Army went to DIV86 (around 1984) the fifth tank in the platoon was taken away and and the #5 in the platoon was now gone.
Dan



A couple of components are missing from the Division 86 and the associated J series TO&E shift. The three tank companies (A-C Companies)in a Tank Battalion went from 3 five tank platoons to 3 4 tank platoons, mentioned above, making 14 tanks per tank company. A fourth tank company (D Company) was added to the battalion, making a total of 58 tanks in a tank battalion, up from the previous 53 tanks.

Additionally, the Divisional Cavalry Squadrons lost all of their tanks in their Ground Cavalry Troops (GCTs) and the Cavalry Platoons became scout platoons with either 6 M3 CFVs per platoon or a mix of 3 M113s and 3 M901s per platoon. The removal of the tanks from the Div Cav Squadrons and the four tank tank platoons allowed the formation of the D Companies in tank battalions.

DIvision 86 and the associated J Series TO&E also affected the GCTs in the Armored Cavalry Regiments. The GCTs three Cavalry Platoons (5 M113s and 3 tanks and a mortar track) were reorganized into two six vehicle scout platoons and two four vehicle tank platoons. The mortars were consolidated at the troop level, giving the GCT commander the ability to mass mortars on targets.

John
Violetrock
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Posted: Monday, February 18, 2019 - 05:54 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Thanks for your help!

There are some pictures on military database, which show a road march exercise in 1982. The bumper codes are not very legigble, therefore I asked.

Now, where do I get a M47 rear stowage bin from? 1/1CAV had them mounted and my M60A3 is nearly finished.

Thomas



Thomas, yep, there are two items commonly left off Models of CAV M60A1s and A3s---the "47 Box" and the "Drip Pan". We got our 47 boxes from French M47s that were railheaded into Grafenwohr for targets in 1976. They were all passed down when we converted to A3s in May 1980. I'd recommend the old Italieri M47 kit for a box, the newer Takom kits would be rather expensive to sacrifice a box from. Don't forget a Drip Pan too-- commonly, the lower 3rd of a 55 gallon drum, with a handle welded to the lip-- usually found tied down on the right or left rear fender.
VR, Russ



Russ,

many thanks for the hint with the drip pan. Didnīt see them on the pictures. Now looking for an old Italeri M47. How were they attached to the stowage basket?

BTW, here is the link to the pictures I was talking about:
1-1 on the march

On picture 17 you see the bumper code, which is only partly legible and I needed confirmation for.

Thomas
Kevlar06
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Posted: Tuesday, February 19, 2019 - 05:57 AM UTC
Thomas,
The 47' boxes were attached with four bolts and two specially fabricated brackets (two holes per bracket) on the inside of the cargo bustle rack. The original M47 had 4 mounting points to attach it to the turret, and these were also used to mount it to the two brackets inside the bustle. This was not an authorized or type-classified mounting, and was done at the individual unit level, so there were no two exactly alike. The drip Pan was not always carried, and sometimes left in the motor pool for short operations, but if the tank was going to be away for some time, it would be carried, usually on the fender. When I was in Germany, it became an increasing requirement because of environmental safety. Fluids leaking from the lower hull of combat vehicles often spilled on the ground through drain plugs in the vehicles hull. The drip pan was a way to appease the environmentalists. But it was primarily used in the motor pool.
VR, Russ