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Armor/AFV: Axis - WWII
Armor and ground forces of the Axis forces during World War II.
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MNH Panther diagonal camo - please advise
Johnnych01
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England - South West, United Kingdom
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Posted: Thursday, November 21, 2019 - 04:13 AM UTC
Another point about modern armour is that from a sad amount of experience from countless hours of steam cleaning and making them look presentable, todays wagons are cosmetically maintained on a far more regular basis and probably more important, kept garaged and out of the elements. When in barracks, we would generally keep them in the hangers unless we needed to move them so they were only ever really hammered on exercise.
Nate_W
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Posted: Thursday, November 21, 2019 - 07:04 AM UTC
I love this MNH late-war Panther scheme. I’ve come to call it “MNH Late-War Kurmark” although, I probably should shouldn’t.


I’ll reiterate what others have said here about Rotbraun. I believe red(er) is better than brown(er). What limited amount of research I’ve done, I’ve come to believe that Rotbraun became more red as the war went on. If nothing else, we do know that paint became more scarce, (relatively), and I believe that as thinner and more hastily mixed coats were applied, that red oxide primer would have more of an effect on the hue and pigment of Rotbraun.


Hope it goes well!



For more reference.

alanmac
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Posted: Thursday, November 21, 2019 - 07:45 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Industrial processes are NOT perfect. We all should recognize that the measurement and mixing of the prescribed ingredients is not very precise - not now in our modern, peace-time, computer-controlled world



BOB

As someone who works for AkzoNobel, you are talking quite frankly a load of rubbish with this statement
.
https://www.akzonobel.com/en/about-us/who-we-are/brands-overview?f%5B0%5D=field_brand_product_category:232
Nate_W
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Posted: Thursday, November 21, 2019 - 12:20 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Industrial processes are NOT perfect. We all should recognize that the measurement and mixing of the prescribed ingredients is not very precise - not now in our modern, peace-time, computer-controlled world



BOB

As someone who works for AkzoNobel, you are talking quite frankly a load of rubbish with this statement
.
https://www.akzonobel.com/en/about-us/who-we-are/brands-overview?f%5B0%5D=field_brand_product_category:232




That’s what I was thinking too Alan.

I had never heard of your company but checked them out and it’s a very interesting read. There’s a lot they’re involved with. I think that’s really cool.

I have very little knowledge about modern paint and the industry but what little I do know is from aviation.

I fly a King-Air C90B that I had the pleasure of first washing and waxing as a broke and akward college student. I was around when it was repainted in “Matterhorn White” along with it’s stripes. The paint has to be extremely precise because uneven composition spoils the smooth airflow over the wing and control surfaces. This paint has to stand up to wide temperature and pressure ranges, be flame and corrosion resistant, all while being extremely light weight with an absolutely perfect finish. The job of repainting it blew my mind and the cost of the paint plays a big part of that. I remember the technician and representative telling me about the enormous amount of R&D and production control standards required and that it wasn’t exclusive to aviation paint. I understood the cost and quality with that introduction to the industry.

Reference photo of N901TS

Biggles2
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Posted: Thursday, November 21, 2019 - 12:22 PM UTC
You're using a company's advertisement as proof?? Really!! By that logic we should all believe everything on TV commercials!
panzerbob01
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Posted: Thursday, November 21, 2019 - 12:45 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Industrial processes are NOT perfect. We all should recognize that the measurement and mixing of the prescribed ingredients is not very precise - not now in our modern, peace-time, computer-controlled world



BOB

As someone who works for AkzoNobel, you are talking quite frankly a load of rubbish with this statement
.
https://www.akzonobel.com/en/about-us/who-we-are/brands-overview?f%5B0%5D=field_brand_product_category:232



Hi, Alan! We've passed by each other on these many threads for years! I greatly respect your opinion and enjoy about everything that you share!

I will however, sorry to have to say, stick solidly with what I said. Industrial processes are, put simply, NEVER PERFECT. They are NEVER actually more than fairly close near-replications of actions. That does not mean that those processes cannot be pretty refined and pretty consistent. But there are ALWAYS errors at some level. Maybe your idea of "precision" (repeatability) differs from mine...

Now, I'm sure that most folks think that drugs, for instance - a very carefully regulated and monitored set of products which undergo exacting scrutiny - are generally "perfect" in their formulations in each batch. Which of course is why we keep seeing drugs pulled from the market because someone eventually discovers some impurity in one or another batch... Whether we want to blame the recent contamination fiasco concerning Ranitadine - a widely-sold acid-stomach treatment long marketed as a prescription and later OTC in the USA - on "Chinese slip-shod applied chemistry" or on some other source is not the important point. That it was found to be an IMPERFECT industrial chemical product inconsistent across batches IS.

I'm pretty sure that drug-making is much more precise and controlled then is paint-mixing...

I don't doubt that you feel strongly about your experience. You may be the most precise industrial paint operator in history, for all I know! Hey! I did more analytical and applied process chemistry over the past 45+ then I care to shake a stick at. I don't let it phase me. And certainly don't let that experience mislead me. Frankly, impurities and inhibited reactions and the complicated shifting stoichiometry of both chemical reactions and the simple mixing of batches of paint is legion. If you have gone and done that "big box" custom paint-mixing exercise as I have..., and YOU didn't find any variation among samples... You, Sir, are the LUCKY MAN!

Precision is one's ability to hit the same spot on the target multiple times. It says NOTHING about how ACCURATE (one's ability to hit the RIGHT spot on the target) the shooter is.

Me? I wouldn't begin to suggest to anyone that paint-mixing is actually any sort of perfect, un-varied, problem-free, industrial process. It MAY well be pretty "precise" by some's standard and definition at the moment, but that begs a question of what one means by "precise", and it may be woefully INACCURATE. Meeting the color standard is a matter of accuracy. Staying on or keeping with the color standard between batches is a matter of precision. I am comfortable asserting that paint manufacturers in later wartime Germany didn't likely much achieve either (which you didn't carry over in your partial-quote, and which IS the real subject we are discussing, so far as German WWII armor colors go).

But that's only my opinion, and all are free to disagree!

Cheers! Bob

PS: And what, exactly, am I looking for on that company web-site? Please help me as to how anything there helps us here!
panzerbob01
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Posted: Thursday, November 21, 2019 - 01:04 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Industrial processes are NOT perfect. We all should recognize that the measurement and mixing of the prescribed ingredients is not very precise - not now in our modern, peace-time, computer-controlled world



BOB

As someone who works for AkzoNobel, you are talking quite frankly a load of rubbish with this statement
.
https://www.akzonobel.com/en/about-us/who-we-are/brands-overview?f%5B0%5D=field_brand_product_category:232




That’s what I was thinking too Alan.

I had never heard of your company but checked them out and it’s a very interesting read. There’s a lot they’re involved with. I think that’s really cool.

I have very little knowledge about modern paint and the industry but what little I do know is from aviation.

I fly a King-Air C90B that I had the pleasure of first washing and waxing as a broke and akward college student. I was around when it was repainted in “Matterhorn White” along with it’s stripes. The paint has to be extremely precise because uneven composition spoils the smooth airflow over the wing and control surfaces. This paint has to stand up to wide temperature and pressure ranges, be flame and corrosion resistant, all while being extremely light weight with an absolutely perfect finish. The job of repainting it blew my mind and the cost of the paint plays a big part of that. I remember the technician and representative telling me about the enormous amount of R&D and production control standards required and that it wasn’t exclusive to aviation paint. I understood the cost and quality with that introduction to the industry.

Reference photo of N901TS




I suppose that you are clear that the surface quality you are talking about - a very critical aspect of modern aircraft paints - is NOT remotely what I am talking about? I am speaking to color. That is what the OP raised, and that is what all the discussion about what RAL 8017 may have looked like is about.

I am sure that you like probably all of us is aware that folks who sell things like house-paint strongly recommend to their customers that they buy enough of one batch to do the whole job. That's not because they are so arrogant as to suggest that every batch of their paint actually comes out having the same color. Strangely, keeping a finish standard (a product of reaction chemistry) is likely easier then keeping a color constant - a product initially of mixed - in pigments set in a vehicle, and later influenced by shifts in the chemical nature of that vehicle.

Cheers! Bob
alanmac
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Posted: Friday, November 22, 2019 - 02:04 AM UTC

Quoted Text



PS: And what, exactly, am I looking for on that company web-site? Please help me as to how anything there helps us here!



I posted the link because in my experience when I mention the name AkzoNobel it usually met with a blank, I don't know them expression, to which I usually reply by listing some of the brands they own and products they make, which they then know and have often used.

I won't go into detail on the comprehensive amounts of testing and quality control the company undertakes as I can see from your reply and Biggles2 it really isn't worth me wasting my time any further as you clearly have your own opinion on this, and it seems on many other things that you guys write at length about.

Forgive me if I sound a little abrupt but I really have got better things to do.

I'd rather have facts and details from which to make my own mind up and act upon as opposed to what amounts to lengthy but ultimately just self opinionated postings however well intentioned they may be.
TopSmith
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Posted: Friday, November 22, 2019 - 02:28 AM UTC
Bob, the reason the painters recommend buying enough to do the entire job is not related to the quality of the paint. The paint is usually tinted by whoever sells the paint. That's where the issue arises. The painters can take the paint and mix the paint on hand together to ensure consistent color. Going back for 1 gallon then relies on the person who tints it and the match may not be exact.
404NotFound
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Posted: Friday, November 22, 2019 - 04:57 AM UTC
Thank you all for the thoughtful replies.

The impetus for all of this includes my two children's interest in model-building. As many of you know, many kids just aren't interested. My daughter has started a P-61 and I want to encourage this.

So my young son wants to build a Ferrari model and a "tanker model." We have a Panther in the stash and a brass detail set which has the vertical ribs for the stowage boxes. Naturally, I'm going to have to participate in this.

I explained how we'd have to go with an MNH finish on account of the boxes' configuration and how the research is half of the fun.

I've seen depictions of this striped finish with both a dark brown and a red brown.

I may just go with the chocolate brown, lightened for scale effect of course and just hope for the best.

I am picking an olive green from the old Floquil line, which has a slightly grayer tint than the Model Master version.

Dark Yellow? Forget it. I'll just go with Model Master. I'm not about to open that debate again.

Another question: I've seen photos of MAN Panthers with a chassis number stenciled, but it does not seem that MNH did this, correct?

Regarding the photo of the Panther posted on the first page, I believe I am seeing the first side skirt panel having been placed out of sequence or order. Notice the vertical demarcation of shading. Maybe a trick of light and shadow, but the rear skirt panel also looks a little out of place too.

I collected a lot of photos of these Panthers from the internet and it seems that this might have occurred here and there.

There is one where it almost looks as though the brown stripe was not even painted on a skirt panel, but just the dark yellow edging.

Lastly, I'm curious about what I'd seen over at M-L regarding red Balkenkreuz with black edging.

Where did I read that that was ordered? I also saw somewhere that tests at Kummersdorf determined this to be less of a aiming point, or something to that effect?

But of course, there's no evidence for this on the MNH Panthers. I just find it a curiosity. Would look sharp on the appropriate model.

Thank you all again.
panzerbob01
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Posted: Friday, November 22, 2019 - 05:39 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Bob, the reason the painters recommend buying enough to do the entire job is not related to the quality of the paint. The paint is usually tinted by whoever sells the paint. That's where the issue arises. The painters can take the paint and mix the paint on hand together to ensure consistent color. Going back for 1 gallon then relies on the person who tints it and the match may not be exact.



I agree almost 100% with you, Greg!

You are right: It's NOT about the "quality" of the paint. It's ALL about whether the end-user can get the same color the second time around. And that's ALL an "industrial process" - even the tinting at the POS, where the paint guy has his tint-machine scan the data codes for the paint-base to be used, and the data-codes on the factory color-chip which tell the machine what dyes to add and how much. The machine does all the work. Using the materials it is given and limited by its own technical abilities. It's NEVER perfect. It's the product of a human endeavor, and we haven't managed to get "perfect" in anything. It IS, however, usually "GOOD ENOUGH" for almost every application. Most of us (specially us males) have some limits on how well we perceive the visible spectrum... how we see color.

Which, BTW, is why this whole argument seems an astonishing and energetic waste, to me!

My point is about paint color varying between batches - not "quality", not "surface finish", not anything else. While some may well be dedicated believers in modern paint-maker's claimed "perfection" at replicating colors (the matter of "precision"), or in the seeming "perfection" of modern industrial processes (and I am positive that they do DO a much better job at that today compared with what likely happened back in Germany in 1944 - '45), color variation between batches of paint remains a demonstrated and observed reality. Not because I believe so or say so. But because actually the coloring of paint is a complex problem with many potential sources of error-in-process. And everyone here has likely seen such color variation at one time or another in some context. I'm speaking here of a observed issue, not some hypothetical or metaphorical or "opinion about process" issue. I LOVE the levels of achievement seen in all sorts of processes small and large. This doesn't mean that I cannot see the errors which occur in them. And that is what color variation between batches is. Simple process error. It happens now, it happened back in WWII. Anyone who believes that there is no between - batch color variation then, or now, is fully-entitled, far as I'm concerned, to their opinion and position on that. I respectfully disagree with you.

And whatever one does or does not believe about the color precision of today's paint technology (and that is simply a personal opinion by anyone, including myself), the reality is, there was indeed an authorized color standard for German rotbraun back in WWII - RAL 8017. And there doubtless was a range of variation around that standard in the actual color of paints applied to German vehicles. And NOBODY here truly KNOWS which shade of brown actually was applied on which tank 75 years ago.

PAX! Bob

I think I'll go dig around and look at my various versions of RAL 8017 rotbraun for my next German build!
Headhunter506
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Posted: Friday, November 22, 2019 - 07:20 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Lastly, I'm curious about what I'd seen over at M-L regarding red Balkenkreuz with black edging.

Where did I read that that was ordered? I also saw somewhere that tests at Kummersdorf determined this to be less of a aiming point, or something to that effect?

But of course, there's no evidence for this on the MNH Panthers. I just find it a curiosity. Would look sharp on the appropriate model.

Thank you all again.



There was this discussion:

Red/Black Balkenkreuze!!

Photo of a Stug III formerly at Ft. Knox

Paulinsibculo
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Posted: Friday, November 22, 2019 - 06:51 PM UTC
Great to see how things turn when someone tries to be the most informed one.
We started the discussion about the correctness of paint, produced in an environment that was subject of a full war. Where chemical production sites were bombed, labour was partially done with prisoners of war, forced labour workers and unexperienced people since most men were in the army. And where basic materials were partially replaced by other than the intended ones since availability became less and less.
If when than also take into account that the production of AFVs was becoming more and more difficult and done in a hurry to keep up with the losses one may expect that a variation in quality (and thus apperance) would have been most likely.
To compare 1944‘s paint quality production processes with high quality aircraft paint (which has to be measured in micron thick layers) is an absolut wrong approach.
Having phoned my German contact from the paint industry and telling him about the ongoing discussion he referred to have a look at Youtube and see some B17 or Lancaster films about their flights above German industries....
That were the circumstances the German chemical industries had to produce required paint batches.
I have done so and I must admit they looked a little bit different from the views on AKZO Nobel‘s paint production sites nowadays.
And I have the feeling the differences may also be an indication for the qualty control.
alanmac
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Posted: Friday, November 22, 2019 - 08:48 PM UTC

Quoted Text



Which, BTW, is why this whole argument seems an astonishing and energetic waste, to me!



Which is surprising Bob as you are one of it's most prolific and lengthy contributors.
panzerbob01
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Posted: Saturday, November 23, 2019 - 06:59 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text



Which, BTW, is why this whole argument seems an astonishing and energetic waste, to me!



Which is surprising Bob as you are one of it's most prolific and lengthy contributors.



Guilty as charged, my friend!

I am sure things get mis-stated and sometimes spun around in these discussions. And I'm sure that I helped in this case. I'm also sure that we all likely agree that there was a lot of variation in actual paint colors applied to German tanks in later WWII - despite there being a formal color standard for those paints. For my interest and part, the value in this recognition lies in its granting us modelers some true opportunity to use available colors without needing to agonize about whether we are using the "RIGHT" color on our plastic Panzers. Even if we ARE interested in historical ACCURACY.

It's been FUN and we'll pass by and possibly collide with each other again in yet another thread where we get to share information, interpretation, and opinions!

Bob
Biggles2
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Posted: Saturday, November 23, 2019 - 12:15 PM UTC
I've read that vehicles produced in Czechoslovakia, ie; Hetzers, and others, didn't have quite the same shades of color as Germany produced vehicles. Any substance to that?
18Bravo
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Posted: Saturday, November 23, 2019 - 01:04 PM UTC

Quoted Text

The paint has to be extremely precise because uneven composition spoils the smooth airflow over the wing and control surfaces.



Logically that would seem to make a lot of sense, In actual practice it turns out not to be as intuitive as one might think.

I build bikes, including some fairly involved engine work, having finally graduated past the cosmetic changes.
I've experimented with porting heads on older CB engines to squeeze as much performance out of them as possible. Some folks like to say polishing and porting the heads, but polishing does not offer the benefits you'd imagine, due to the boundary layer and other factors wetting action of the air. Many intakes are indeed intentionally left slightly rough. The proof of how this works can be seen when you're in your car doing 75 mph in the rain, yet the water droplets on your windshield are slowly creeping upward. I think air friction actually has a bit to do with it as well. At any rate, I don't polish my intakes.

This has about as little to do with camo as some of the other posts, but since it was brought up...

This does though. Interesting Panther camo form the movie T-34.



Yes, it's CG. I'm not the guy who unknowingly posts photos of models that have been photo shopped onto real backgrounds - that's the other guy.
Mrclark7
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Posted: Saturday, November 23, 2019 - 02:05 PM UTC
paint shades, always a funny read whenever it happens. the banging of heads and hours of research in order to get it right, and the talking of how paint was attempted to be matched 75 years ago and in my hand I am looking at this.

Why bother with all the variables?



404NotFound
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Posted: Sunday, November 24, 2019 - 07:29 AM UTC
Regarding the Panther we will be working on, some details are more clear. Fortunately, there are also posts that detail what particular items MNH Panthers featured. Some questions remain however.

An artistic depiction for a kit in the MNH livery illustrates green, dark yellow and brown wheels, but what is the basis for this? I don't seem to see any different shades regarding the wheels in the photos I have collected from the internet.

Regarding the MiG Late War German Camouflage set, there are three green shades included: Resedagrun, B Resedagrun and Olivgrun Opt. 1.

I had asked this before, but what, if any basis is there to this? Is this based on some new research?

The back of the box tellingly includes an illustration of what would be an old Dragon Panther II in a camo pattern that uses these three green shades, and the by now mandatory single red primer wheel... So I am probably answering my own question. Regardless, who decided that there were three separate greens?

Another question: some MNH Panthers in this scheme have Balkenkreuz markings. Interestingly, if there is no tactical number, the Balkenkreuz is on the forward portion of the turret. If there is a tactical number (I'm guessing the color would be yellow), the Balkenkreuz is high and to the aft of the turret.

With that said, what is the proper positioning of the Balkenkreuz on the rear of the hull?

Thank you again.

Headhunter506
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Posted: Sunday, November 24, 2019 - 08:10 AM UTC

Quoted Text

So I am probably answering my own question. Regardless, who decided that there were three separate greens?



AK Interactive, and other such paint lines, are part of the artsy-fartsy modulation style of painting,favored by European modelers. It bears no resemblance to reality; instead, it produces exaggerated shading and highlighting of individual panels/sections/areas of a model. This is accomplished by using increasingly lighter shades of a particular cover over a previously applied layer.

Long story short re the roadwheels, paint them solid with the predominant overall vehicle lower hull color (Dunkelgelb or Olivegrun) without any camouflage pattern carried over from the hull.
404NotFound
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Posted: Sunday, November 24, 2019 - 08:19 AM UTC
Thank you. I am guessing olivgrun for a base coat for 1945.

Many of you may have seen the photo recently posted at M-L of the MNH striped Panther on the rail car.

The running gear is quite dark. No variation in colors I can see.

About the MiG set, I am basically just wondering how these official-sounding names were arrived at as if there were indeed three separate greens ordered and issued.
TopSmith
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Posted: Sunday, November 24, 2019 - 12:16 PM UTC
I would go with the green road wheels unless photographic evidence shows different.
404NotFound
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Posted: Sunday, November 24, 2019 - 02:10 PM UTC
I agree.

I like the artwork as linked below, but I see no evidence for the different color roadwheels yet.



https://www.how-amps.org/academy-13523-135-pzkpfwv-panther-ausfg-last-production