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Dioramas
Do you love dioramas & vignettes? We sure do.
LAH in the Ardennes
Johnnych01
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Posted: Saturday, January 04, 2020 - 04:43 AM UTC
Bravo, well said Wayne.
alanmac
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Posted: Saturday, January 04, 2020 - 10:19 AM UTC
It's a shame that a couple of initial irrelevant posts but more significantly followed up by another post from someone who should know better has resulted in Jerry removing his posts.

I hope this doesn't mean you will withdraw from contributing to the Armorama web site in the future Jerry.

Alan
bill_c
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Posted: Saturday, January 04, 2020 - 11:59 AM UTC
I'm against removing it.

Gents, the history of the war is certainly bloody. I don't at all advocate "just staying on track and admiring modeling skills." I think Jerry is a GREAT modeler, no question about it, and it's a shame he chose to take his ball and go home. I think it's perfectly fine to model Peiper, who commanded one of the most-famous and most-accomplished Waffen SS units. The LAH got all the latest toys and were accomplished fighters.

But Peiper is a polarizing figure at best.

And I'm totally stunned that anyone would justify the barbarity of the Waffen SS in general and Peiper in particular (and Heer German units like Grossdeutschland) by saying they "endured" a lot on the Eastern Front.

Bloody hell, man, that's like the fellow who murdered his parents and then threw himself on the mercy of the court because he was an orphan.

The Einsatzgruppen (look them up if you don't know who I mean) and gas vans followed right behind the German front line troops as they advanced through the USSR murdering Jews, Gypsies, and ordinary civilians in a policy that actually diverted military strength away from war to wage war on innocent people. Does the name Babi Yar mean nothing anymore? Please don't equate what happened there with the bombing of Germany's cities. One was done to shorten the war, the other to exterminate whole classes of people who were considered Untermenschen unworthy of life. When I visited Dachau outside Munich, there was a pock-marked wall where camp guards machine-gunned Russian POWs in huge numbers. The Nazis didn't bother to calculate how many were murdered because the Russians weren't considered people.

We model the machines, men and materiel of war. There is a famous quote, possibly apocryphal, from the American Civil War Confederate General Robert E. Lee who confided to a colleague during a particularly bloody Southern victory "It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it."

We can admire the machines of warfare and the modeling skills of those who build them, but let us never lose sight of what the reality of war is.

Keep the thread.
Chepster
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Posted: Saturday, January 04, 2020 - 12:06 PM UTC
If, as modellers, we were limited to morally irreprehensible subjects, our hobby would be significantly restricted. I would like to think that just because we model incidents, personalities and units responsible for great suffering, we do not condone these. I would like to think that we partake in this hobby to educate ourselves and hopefully educate others about such matters.

It seems a shame that such a great contributor to this site has felt pressured into removing the photographs of his work. I saw nothing in his posts that glorified or attempted to justify what Peiper did. It appeared to me, to be nothing more than an attempt to portray this controversial but militarily prominent character's attire as accurately as possible.

I appreciate that some modellers will find the portrayal of "heroes" of the Third Reich as distasteful but the marvellous thing about this hobby is the breadth of subject matter available to us. If you don't like the subject matter, how about simply moving on without comment?
bill_c
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Posted: Saturday, January 04, 2020 - 12:16 PM UTC
No one said Jerry condoned, glorified or otherwise did more than show a terrible individual accurately, something we all applauded.

No one criticized him for modeling Peiper.

Unfortunately Jerry's response was to condemn those of us who commented on Peiper the historical figure as "excessively PC" and extrapolate that onto current US politics.

Let me say emphatically I think he did a heluva job on Peiper, and I appreciate and applaud all the research that led him to portray Peiper's clothing and gear accurately. I regret he took ALL his posts down in a fit of pique, and would encourage him to continue to share his work. I will say it again: Jerry Rutman is a master modeler I admire, respect and look up to.

But if pointing out Peiper was a bad hombre is going to make him run away, then that's on him.

If we are going to model historical figures, events and equipment without discussing or even mentioning the history, that's crap as far as I'm concerned.
bill_c
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Posted: Saturday, January 04, 2020 - 01:09 PM UTC
And just for the record, here is Wikipedia's account of Peiper that calls him:

"a relatively insignificant combat leader, Peiper achieved cult status among those who romanticize the Waffen-SS. With his good looks and multitude of awards, Peiper came to represent the image of the daring Panzer divisions. The admiration continues to the 2010s, with the official Facebook account of the US Department of Defense featuring a glamorized picture of Peiper to commemorate the 2019 anniversary of the Battle of the Bulge. In fact, Peiper was an embodiment of the SS ideology and an egocentric, ruthless commander, who ignored his own losses and created a culture within his unit where war crimes were not only tolerated but expected."
Bravo36
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Posted: Saturday, January 04, 2020 - 02:59 PM UTC
Please keep it Robin, and beg Jerry to return his posts. This is a modeling site, not a place for moralizing. A figure of Hitler or Stalin should be acceptable and evaluated for the painting and sculpting involved. We, modelers, are not here to evaluate historical actions, and those who wish to, should find some other forum.
I’d be happy if you ban those fools from the site.
Thanks
Dioramartin
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Posted: Saturday, January 04, 2020 - 04:13 PM UTC
I never saw Jerry’s response but get the gist from what’s left on this thread. First everyone take a calm-down tablet.

Second, sorry Jerry but without putting a particularly “sensitive” figure like Peiper in historical context at the outset, I have to be honest – when I looked at your first post I felt some unease. To put up a representation of a person directly responsible for the Malmedy massacre and just talk about his attire seemed…insensitive at best.

But then I thought about it some more and thought “Jerry’s not that stupid and no Nazi sympathiser, I guess the subtlety I initially missed was that most viewers are perfectly well aware of that particular war-crime, so it could/should be read as an indirect remembrance of the victims. And for those who have no idea who Peiper was, all they’ll see anyway is a very-well produced 1/35 scale figure of a German officer.”

I don’t have a problem with that - if you do, how come you haven’t posted on my Operation Anthropoid thread yet? It’s been going for well over a year & it’s all about Reinhardt Heydrich - many orders of magnitude worse than Peiper – and I’ve flagged from the outset there’ll be multiple representations of him in all his finery. Just because I’m reproducing his assassination makes no difference, Peiper was assassinated too. Bring it on.

Jerry please put your posts back up. Others have a right to express a different view, but you have an equal right to stand by yours
dhines
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Posted: Saturday, January 04, 2020 - 04:19 PM UTC
I am playing catch up on this thread and am very sad to hear that Jerry removed his postings on the Peiper figure. I was very much enjoying the article and at no time did I feel that Jerry was glorifying Peipers actions against pows. I personally always enjoy the research and level of skill that Jerry puts into all of his efforts, he is truly one of the best modelers out there. We as modelers should be able to build what we want in a respectful way as MR Rutman has always done. It is very sad that some people have a problem with a choice of subject because they do not agree with the builders view of its historical record. It is just a hobby,meant to be enjoyed without anyone imposing their view of history on anybody else because they think they have a superior knowledge that others do not. Looking at Jerry Rutmans outstanding modeling skills and his latest efforts are a big part of why I visit this site. I sure hope this site does not lose its best diorama builder as it would be a shame.
Johnnych01
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Posted: Saturday, January 04, 2020 - 11:31 PM UTC
How silly of me, of course Wikipedia is always correct.
And lets not forget, you only ever get promoted to Lt Col because you have a pretty face !

I would suggest people should read the "Devils Adjutant" by Michael Reynolds .. a retired Div Comd in the British Army. . It is very well researched and neutral in how the facts are presented. Possibly not for those who have very set and blinkered outlook on that particular episode !
And yes, I have been to Bergen/Belsen and Auschwitz. I have never had the chance to visit any of the WW2 Russian stalags where millions upon millions more were murdered.
And yes thank you, but I am fully aware of what the Einsatzgruppen were and what they did. And I will bring up the carpet and fire bombing of German cities as many had little or no military value other than shock and awe and retaliation for the bombing of UK cities.



amoz02t
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Posted: Sunday, January 05, 2020 - 01:14 AM UTC
I like Jerry's art and how he is so willing to share his methods and techniques to produce that art. I want to see more of Jerry R's stuff.
Removed by original poster on 01/05/20 - 15:10:02 (GMT).
maartenboersma
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Posted: Sunday, January 05, 2020 - 03:11 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I like Jerry's art and how he is so willing to share his methods and techniques to produce that art. I want to see more of Jerry R's stuff.



Hear, hear !
bill_c
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Posted: Sunday, January 05, 2020 - 10:54 AM UTC
Read the thread:

NO ONE criticized Jerry for modeling Peiper. Stop throwing out red herrings. No one complaining about modeling Heydrich? No one complained about Peiper. I’m calling crap.

Don’t like Wikipedia? Cool but Peiper was up to his nipples in the Final Solution and a close aide to Himmler. That’s how he got the field command. Whether he was a good tank commander or not, he was a murderer.

This is a modeling site that deals with warfare. War is ugly and when we choose to look away from the facts, then we just whitewash evil.

Interestingly if Jerry did not have his meltdown then this whole Peiper thing would likely have blown over. I certainly have not problem with him modeling Peiper. But now that you Peiper apologists want to lionize him as a military genius I’m happy to keep responding.
chazman
Joined: October 24, 2005
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Posted: Sunday, January 05, 2020 - 07:10 PM UTC
Some points:

1) I love Jerry's stuff.

2) Modelling distasteful personalities is common.

3) It's okay to talk about it.
cheyenne
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Posted: Tuesday, January 07, 2020 - 12:47 AM UTC
I've put off commenting on this because I can't in good faith comment .
Not being able to see Jerry's side/comments etc. leaves me as an unreliable witness .
That being said I do get the drift of the incident .
Has anyone tried reaching out to Jerry to find out if he is ok ?
I realise Jerry left and no one banned or blackballed him , has anyone tried to reach out to him to find an amicable solution ?
Surely a modeler of his caliber and contribution to this site deserves that much consideration .

Jerry , love ya man , please for me and the many others that love your work and contributions find a way to save face and return .
Heck man , I'm wrong all the time , just ask my wife .

Dude , just come back , ........ please .


bill_c
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Posted: Tuesday, January 07, 2020 - 02:53 AM UTC

Quoted Text

...has anyone tried to reach out to him to find an amicable solution?


He disabled his profile and so no PMs are possible. I found an old email and reached out to him. We'll see what happens.

I agree Jerry's talent is immense, but I don't agree that places him or his subjects above comment as some of you seem to. Since I was the first to comment on the subject matter, I will see if he's willing to bury the hatchet.
cheyenne
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Posted: Tuesday, January 07, 2020 - 03:51 AM UTC
Bill , with all due respect I'm not condoning nor chastising his work or comments [ as through no fault of yours I'm not privy to his comments ] Which also might have given me a different outlook . Please don't include me as one who is placing him or his work above comment .

I'm just trying to get the involved to come to the table and make amends .
I credit you for the reach out , that's big of you and proper as a true gentleman . I can only hope Jerry can find it in himself to do the same ......... there's just no reason why this should end in limbo .
bill_c
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Posted: Tuesday, January 07, 2020 - 04:32 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Bill , with all due respect I'm not condoning nor chastising his work or comments [ as through no fault of yours I'm not privy to his comments ] Which also might have given me a different outlook . Please don't include me as one who is placing him or his work above comment.


I am referring to no one, Cheyenne. I think if folks would not get their knickers in a knot over what is "implied" in these discussions, we'd all be a lot better off. I include myself in that, as it's easy to say--

jrutman
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Posted: Wednesday, January 08, 2020 - 11:10 AM UTC
Alright alright alright.
This is all my fault and I should never have let this escalate at all. I have been away from the "box" for days because of family commitments.
I read all the threads' remarks posted since I deleted my parts.. Thanks for any and all concerns and for some embarrassingly nice comments.
I was in an extremely bad place that day and should never type ANYTHING while I am.
I also should know better than to try to post anything about "that guy". I had a vignette showing an episode near Werbomont using all the latest research planned here but it's probably better if I just bag the whole thing. I am tired of it after this last week especially.
" That guy" will just have to enjoy his nap in the spare parts bin.
Thanks again for your patience.
J
Dioramartin
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Posted: Wednesday, January 08, 2020 - 04:28 PM UTC
Well said all, and I’m delighted your back JR - we’ve probably all been there, I know I have. As they say around here, Good On You
PanzerFloor
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Posted: Wednesday, January 08, 2020 - 06:26 PM UTC
Glad you are back
Golikell
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Posted: Wednesday, January 08, 2020 - 08:43 PM UTC
My friend, I am so glad that you are okay.
I understand that you take rash decisions in the heat of the battle, but you really have nothing to be ashamed of, and to be honest, demoting the figure to the spares box is really a waste of a perfect figure. I understand the name is a sensitive point. Considdering his actions that is not weird, but, as has been stated before, that in no case makes you condone his actions in any way.
Don't bin it, please?
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Wednesday, January 08, 2020 - 09:14 PM UTC
Welcome back Jerry.

Modelling something controversial can be made much less controversial by a few lines of text telling the history of whatever is modelled. It is easier with inanimate objects, a gun or a tank is a complex collection of parts made of metal and other stuff.
It is not inherently good or evil, it all depends on who is using the object, who points the gun at what and why.
A figure can get a bit more complicated so it could be clever to add some lines of text telling their story, especially if they did something really bad.
A vignette with a US submarine commander? Sure thing but if it is Dudley "Mush" Morton some information about one of his actions might be in order:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dudley_W._Morton

/ Robin
cheyenne
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Posted: Wednesday, January 08, 2020 - 10:29 PM UTC
Hey Jerry , ...... explanations or not , we've all been there , it's all good man .
Well it's five thirty am here , ...... but I think we all should go out for some beers ......

Cool !!