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Armor/AFV: Axis - WWII
Armor and ground forces of the Axis forces during World War II.
Hosted by Darren Baker
17th SS Pz.Div. in Normandy
PLMP110
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Alabama, United States
Joined: September 26, 2002
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Posted: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 - 02:47 AM UTC
I am building a StuG of the 17th SS Pz.Bn which was engaged on June 13th in support of the 6th Parachute Regiment. Did all of these vehicles have zimmerit, and does anybody know what type camo patterns these vehicles employed? All my reference photos have so much foilage added, I cannot get a clear idea.

Patrick
avukich
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Virginia, United States
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Posted: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 - 04:39 AM UTC
It's funny that you ask these questions. I just finished my StuG IV of the 17th SS P.G.D. in Normandy about a month ago. I will include some images for you to look at below.

Yes, all of their vehicles had zimmerit in the ridged pattern. I couldn't find any clear images of the camo pattern either so I looked at other vehicles fighting in the area for inspiration. I settled on the 3 tone camo pattern common to German vehicles at that time. I don't think that there are any good pictures of 17th SS P.G.D. vehicles out there that clearly show the camo so you will have to go with your best guess. I looked at all of the pictures listed in the ML StuG IV photo-phile of the 17th and got nowhere in regards to camo. Don't hesitate to ask me any questions you may have about the vehicle or the unit because I did an exhaustive amount of research on the vehicle before building it and ended up winning a gold medal at the Washington Model Show with it. You can send me email at avukich@lumintel.com.

If you want any info. on what I did for my StuG IV check out this old thread













PLMP110
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Posted: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 - 08:51 AM UTC
Adam,

Thanks for the quick answers. I am new here, but have been building for years. Maybe I'll post some photos when I'm finished.

Thanks,

Patrick
cromwell
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England - East Anglia, United Kingdom
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Posted: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 - 11:27 PM UTC
Nice......V Nice, cool paint job, what kit is it, italeri, Dragon or Tamiya???

The tracks, are they from the kit or a more detailed set?
They look good, but a little tight on the drivers side.

I've found that pix of the StuGIV are very limited, although I would go along with the three colour camo scheme.

I notice that there are no divisional markings or tank number, just the national insignia. was this typical??? If so How do you know it comes from the 17th SS Pz Div??

Keep up the superb work

Cromwell
avukich
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Virginia, United States
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Posted: Thursday, October 10, 2002 - 12:22 AM UTC
PLMP110,

Welcome to Armorama! It is a great site so you shouldn't be disappointed. Please do post some pics of your StuG IV once you finish. I would like to see someone else's interpretation. Also, what model are you using for the base: Tamiya, Academy, DML?

cromwell,

Quoted Text

Nice......V Nice, cool paint job, what kit is it, italeri, Dragon or Tamiya


Thanks for the compliments! It is the old crappy Tamiya kit which I definately wouldn't recommend to anyone looking for accuracy unless they like doing extensive modification.

Quoted Text

The tracks, are they from the kit or a more detailed set?
They look good, but a little tight on the drivers side.


The tracks are a Modelkasten set which is why they actually look good. The kit tracks are the old vinyl piles of crap with detail on one side only. The reason that they are a little tight on the drivers side is that the track pins broke in two places on that side during weathering and had to be super-glued which took away the slack.

Quoted Text

I notice that there are no divisional markings or tank number, just the national insignia. was this typical??? If so How do you know it comes from the 17th SS Pz Div??


For StuGs attached to the 17th SS PGD it must have been because every picture that I've seen of StuG IVs of the 17th SS PGD in Normandy only have crosses. For that matter almost all StuG IVs that I've seen pictures of are that way as well. I guess I don't know that it comes from the 17th for sure, I am just trusting the authors of the reference books that I have that have labled them as 17th SS PGD StuGs. :-)
cromwell
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Posted: Thursday, October 10, 2002 - 01:01 AM UTC
I built the Italeri kit a few back when I was was 14 (now in the spares box due to over painting.) If I remember the kit wasnn't that bad, I remember the tracks having detail both sides, which I now use for adding spare track on my other PzKpfw IV's.

Thanks, for your remarks on my first posting, I guess we have to rely on a lot of authors for descriptions on which fighting units a lot of unmarked vehicles were attached to.

Scott.
Folgore
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Posted: Thursday, October 10, 2002 - 04:54 AM UTC
Just from pictures I have seen, the Germans seemed to cut back on markings later in the war. Lots of King Tigers only had turret numbers, while others might have added the cross to the turret sides. Does anyone have any references on German markings through WWII?

Nic
Tanks46
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New Jersey, United States
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Posted: Thursday, October 10, 2002 - 03:45 PM UTC
Hey Scott - Nic, Butch Cassidy here. I have some references for German markings. What exactly are you looking for? Put it up here or give me a shout at Tanks46@aol.com. I'll see if I have any info to fit your needs. Tanks46 Butch Cassidy

Der Sonntag Bund
Folgore
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Posted: Thursday, October 10, 2002 - 03:49 PM UTC
Well, Butch, since you volunteered, what can you tell me about the markings on King Tigers of 503 s.Pz.Abt. in Normandy? I think all they had was turret number and cross, but from the picture I have, I can't totally be sure.
Thanks,

Nic
Michel
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Posted: Thursday, October 10, 2002 - 09:20 PM UTC
When I was at the french Military Archives, I ' ve seen several films from the DW ( WW2 german newsreels ). On one of them, I saw the 17th SS PzgrDiv in revue ( in a small normandy town ): there were StuG IVs from the PzAbt., before the battle...They were ALL sand color ( w/o camo ), and zimmerited. I saw, too, a fight with canadian or english Sherman Firefly, in the bocage, and they were, again, plain sand...
' ve a nice day...!
cromwell
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England - East Anglia, United Kingdom
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Posted: Thursday, October 10, 2002 - 11:45 PM UTC
All-----

If you want stuff on Panzer makring be it Unit, Division or unofficial Get Panzer colour 1to 3 they are invaluable.

Also Arms and armour press have released a few more books written and printed in the same style......
Eastern Front, Blitzkrieg and D-Day to Normandy.

Get Osprey Books as well, I find them a mine of information.

Scott. :-)
avukich
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Posted: Friday, October 11, 2002 - 12:39 AM UTC
cromwell,

You are right in that the Panzer Colors books are invaluable, but they weren't much help in this case. They only talk about the general rules of thumb for German camo & markings, but not the specifics of a units camo & markings during a particular period. Based on info. I got from those books and a few others I chose the color scheme that I did, but if Michel is correct than that choice was wrong. Although, one of the pictures that I have of a 17th SS PGD StuG IV in Normandy is in color and it clearly shows at least the dark yellow (sand) and red brown colors and there is a hint that the green color is present as well. Here is a smaller version of that picture. If you would like a larger version where coloration is much clearer send me an email at avukich@lumintel.com and I will send it to you.