login   |    register
Armor/AFV: Modern - USA
Modern Armor, AFVs, and Support vehicles.
Hosted by Darren Baker
what U.S. units have the M1A2
drewgimpy
Visit this Community
Utah, United States
Joined: January 24, 2002
KitMaker: 835 posts
Armorama: 388 posts
Posted: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 - 04:34 PM UTC
Hello all,

I would like to know which units are currently using the A2 version of the Abrams. I know they where testing some at the national training center but other than that I have no clue. Also, are they delivered in the Nato 3 camo or desert camo? Thanks for the help.
210cav
Visit this Community
Virginia, United States
Joined: February 05, 2002
KitMaker: 6,133 posts
Armorama: 4,557 posts
Posted: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 - 12:36 AM UTC
Andy--the M1A2 is the Abrams version armed with a 120mm main gun and the Commander's Independent Thermal Viewer. Those are the most obvious characteristics of the system. I know they are with the 3rd Infantry Division, 1st Cavalry Division, 4th Infantry Division, 3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment, 1st Armored Division, 1st Infantry Division . I think the 2nd Infantry Division in Korea has them also. My recollection is that the vast bulk of M1A1s will become M1A1D which consist of an M1A1 with integrated applique computer and a far target designation capability. So, the M1A2's do not populate the entire force. They are present within the units I enumerated. We are also building a force of 966 M1A2 System Enhancement Program (SEP) tanks. These are M1A1's that have a host of items not found in the other vehicle in the series. The first batch will go to the 1st Brigade of the 1st Cavalry Division.
You would need a score card the size of a large barn to follow the bouncing ball that is Abrams tank modernization.
It is well laid out and completely dependent on the budget.
DJ
Ps--I trust other will supplement my comments. I just know the M1A2s are in unit within a division as opposed to having the entire division armed with them.
Sabot
Joined: December 18, 2001
KitMaker: 12,587 posts
Armorama: 9,062 posts
Posted: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 - 02:31 AM UTC
Drew, remember, unlike an M-16 rifle or M998 HMMWV, M1A2s are high dollar items that are tracked by serial number and distributed accordingly. While that actual platoon, company or battalion the tank will go to is unknown, the manufacturers (and the Army) know which division is going to get the M1A2 that is rolling down the assembly line. So, an M1A2 going to a unit in the states will get one delivered in sand. One going to Korea or Germany will get it in NATO 3 color scheme. They are delivered in the scheme that their division is geared towards. This isn't a difficult chore, much easier than auto manufacturers trying to match what model/color/options on a new car is going to the Jones' in Peoria, IL.

BTW, another visual reference between an M1A1 and M1A2 is the upgraded commander's weapon station (CWS). The vision blocks, .50 cal & mount and cupola are different.
210cav
Visit this Community
Virginia, United States
Joined: February 05, 2002
KitMaker: 6,133 posts
Armorama: 4,557 posts
Posted: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 - 03:58 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Drew, remember, unlike an M-16 rifle or M998 HMMWV, M1A2s are high dollar items that are tracked by serial number and distributed accordingly. While that actual platoon, company or battalion the tank will go to is unknown, the manufacturers (and the Army) know which division is going to get the M1A2 that is rolling down the assembly line. So, an M1A2 going to a unit in the states will get one delivered in sand. One going to Korea or Germany will get it in NATO 3 color scheme. They are delivered in the scheme that their division is geared towards. This isn't a difficult chore, much easier than auto manufacturers trying to match what model/color/options on a new car is going to the Jones' in Peoria, IL.

BTW, another visual reference between an M1A1 and M1A2 is the upgraded commander's weapon station (CWS). The vision blocks, .50 cal & mount and cupola are different.



Rob--am I correct in that the M1A2s are not in battalion size packets but rather in one and twos at the company level?
DJ
2-2dragoon
Visit this Community
Washington, United States
Joined: March 08, 2002
KitMaker: 608 posts
Armorama: 268 posts
Posted: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 - 04:41 AM UTC
Can you say training and maintenance nightmare? The logistical problems, as well as training issues involved in parcelling out new tanks like that makes me ill. If they are doing that they are nuts... company level at lowest, please!! When I was un Europe entire battalions got new tanks all at once to allow for training and provisions for maintenance upgrades.

Pleae tell me it ain't so.
Sabot
Joined: December 18, 2001
KitMaker: 12,587 posts
Armorama: 9,062 posts
Posted: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 - 04:58 AM UTC
No, battalions are getting pure fleets of either M1A2s or M1A1Ds. I'm just saying that the tanks on the assembly line now already have a home, going to one of the divisions so they know what color to paint it. It isn't too much of a logistical nightmare if they did mix the fleet. 98% of the tanks are interchangeable, just the M1A2 or M1A1D-specific parts would be the difference.
kkeefe
Visit this Community
Massachusetts, United States
Joined: May 12, 2002
KitMaker: 1,416 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 - 05:26 AM UTC
Kind of off topic here....

Does anyone know what the percentage of sand colored vehicles to tri-color vehicles are now in the inventory? (as delivered from mfr.)

My day, it was something like 30% sand color to Tri color. Has this changed any since the early '90's? Sure looks more like 50-50 now at least.

Thanks,
Kevin Keefe
Mortars in Miniature
210cav
Visit this Community
Virginia, United States
Joined: February 05, 2002
KitMaker: 6,133 posts
Armorama: 4,557 posts
Posted: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 - 05:35 AM UTC

Quoted Text

No, battalions are getting pure fleets of either M1A2s or M1A1Ds. I'm just saying that the tanks on the assembly line now already have a home, going to one of the divisions so they know what color to paint it. It isn't too much of a logistical nightmare if they did mix the fleet. 98% of the tanks are interchangeable, just the M1A2 or M1A1D-specific parts would be the difference.



I can appreciate the M1A1Ds as pure issues, but the A2! Wow. That would be a tough one to train on. The fire distribution and control challenge must be sizeable. I don't see any logistics nightmare here. I thought the A2s were going to companiy level where they would be the tank of the Master Gunner. Assume I am incorrect.
HeavyArty
Visit this Community
Florida, United States
Joined: May 16, 2002
KitMaker: 17,040 posts
Armorama: 13,240 posts
Posted: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 - 07:53 AM UTC
All,
The M1A2 is not as wide spread yet as you think. Due to budget constraints, fielding was slowed down. 4 ID has them, 1 CAV is just now fielding, 2 ID in Korea was due to field last year. 3 ID des not have them yet. I don,t believe 1AD and 1ID have them yet. Whole Battalions are being replaced as a set. Logistics is not a problem, as Sabot stated 98% of parts are the same. Fire control is actually easier, gunner and commander can now search for and designate targets. Turret also has an automatic lock on and slew feature that makes it like a video game. Lay the cross hairs, point and shoot.

As for the ditribution of sand to camo vehicles, all III Corps is sand, the rest of the army is camo. That makes 1CAV, 3 ID, 3 ACR, and 4 ID as sand. 1AD, 1 ID, 2 ACR, 2 ID, 10 MTN, 82 ABN, 101 ABN, and 25 ID as camo. Still looks about 30% sand, 70% camo.
drewgimpy
Visit this Community
Utah, United States
Joined: January 24, 2002
KitMaker: 835 posts
Armorama: 388 posts
Posted: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 - 12:17 PM UTC
Thanks a ton guys, I find this stuff very interesting. Not being a military man I don't totaly understand the unit makeup and breakdown of the Army. Is there a web site anyone knows of where I can learn more about the organization of the Army? Basicaly all the stuff you guys are talking about. Thanks again for the info.
210cav
Visit this Community
Virginia, United States
Joined: February 05, 2002
KitMaker: 6,133 posts
Armorama: 4,557 posts
Posted: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 - 12:22 PM UTC

Quoted Text

All,
The M1A2 is not as wide spread yet as you think. Due to budget constraints, fielding was slowed down. 4 ID has them, 1 CAV is just now fielding, 2 ID in Korea was due to field last year. 3 ID des not have them yet. I don,t believe 1AD and 1ID have them yet. Whole Battalions are being replaced as a set. Logistics is not a problem, as Sabot stated 98% of parts are the same. Fire control is actually easier, gunner and commander can now search for and designate targets. Turret also has an automatic lock on and slew feature that makes it like a video game. Lay the cross hairs, point and shoot.

As for the ditribution of sand to camo vehicles, all III Corps is sand, the rest of the army is camo. That makes 1CAV, 3 ID, 3 ACR, and 4 ID as sand. 1AD, 1 ID, 2 ACR, 2 ID, 10 MTN, 82 ABN, 101 ABN, and 25 ID as camo. Still looks about 30% sand, 70% camo.



Sir--it is nice to see we attracted an artillery officer to the discussion. My compliments. However, I would say while the individual crew may (or should) function better, the challenge is to get the platoon and then the company to come up with a method of fire distribution which allows them to fire on targets without having everyone shoot at the same one and allow others to continue to operate. The current COFTs are not built to handle that training imperative. I doubt any MPRC is structured to present that type of target array. So, you have a challenge to meet. I though that 1AD and 1ID received the A2's as part of the Unit Set Fielding plan for USAREUR. I'll check that tomorrow when I get to work. Once again, nice to have you with us. Shows us some of your 1/35 scale M109s!
take care
DJ
Sabot
Joined: December 18, 2001
KitMaker: 12,587 posts
Armorama: 9,062 posts
Posted: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 - 01:17 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Thanks a ton guys, I find this stuff very interesting. Not being a military man I don't totaly understand the unit makeup and breakdown of the Army. Is there a web site anyone knows of where I can learn more about the organization of the Army? Basicaly all the stuff you guys are talking about. Thanks again for the info.

Drew, if you want, I can spit out a quick wire diagram organizational chart. Can you access MS PowerPoint slides?
210cav
Visit this Community
Virginia, United States
Joined: February 05, 2002
KitMaker: 6,133 posts
Armorama: 4,557 posts
Posted: Thursday, October 17, 2002 - 12:27 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Thanks a ton guys, I find this stuff very interesting. Not being a military man I don't totaly understand the unit makeup and breakdown of the Army. Is there a web site anyone knows of where I can learn more about the organization of the Army? Basicaly all the stuff you guys are talking about. Thanks again for the info.

Drew, if you want, I can spit out a quick wire diagram organizational chart. Can you access MS PowerPoint slides?



Rob--I sure as heck can and would appreciate the diagrams.
thanks
DJ
drewgimpy
Visit this Community
Utah, United States
Joined: January 24, 2002
KitMaker: 835 posts
Armorama: 388 posts
Posted: Thursday, October 17, 2002 - 11:27 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Drew, if you want, I can spit out a quick wire diagram organizational chart. Can you access MS PowerPoint slides?



I haven't messed with power point to much but I do have it on my computer so it shouldn't be a problem. I would be grateful if you would do that, might be a good thing to add the the site. I hope I am not asking you to do to much but I would put it to good use.
Tankrider
Visit this Community
Oklahoma, United States
Joined: October 07, 2002
KitMaker: 1,249 posts
Armorama: 1,178 posts
Posted: Friday, October 18, 2002 - 12:52 PM UTC
Guys: DJ, Sabot, Andy and all of the other...

The plan is/ or was last time that I saw it, called for M1A2s in 1st Cav, 3d ACR and 1st Brigade, 4th ID. M1A2SEPs replaced the M1A1 (lights) 2d Brigade. I believe 3d Infantry Division will be next in line for the A2SEP, if they don't decide to refit 1CD with the latest toys. 2ID will retain their M1A1HAs until 2006, at least... 1-1 Cav of 1st Armored recieved M1A1HC (AIM) - rebuilt A1s in 2000-2001.

DJ,
I miss the officer PT that you "instituted" in the 2d Battalion of the Buffalo Soldiers, back in the day... Great fun and you took a hit better than I expected a battalion commander would... It is too bad that PLDC is in your old HQ.

John
Sabot
Joined: December 18, 2001
KitMaker: 12,587 posts
Armorama: 9,062 posts
Posted: Friday, October 18, 2002 - 01:18 PM UTC
John, good to see that you finally made it to this site, even though I've been dropping links to my motor pool album at M-L for months.

Did you hear any more news about making 2ACR the next Stryker Bde?

BTW, both you and DJ spent too much time at Knox!
Tankrider
Visit this Community
Oklahoma, United States
Joined: October 07, 2002
KitMaker: 1,249 posts
Armorama: 1,178 posts
Posted: Saturday, October 19, 2002 - 03:11 AM UTC
Sabot,
I have been in RLS on Armorama for a while & finally got off of my butt and enlisted... My rumor mill has it that the 2d Cavalry Regiment (we dropped the Armored part in Oct-Nov 00 for the term "Interim" & dropped "Interim" in May of 02, when the Stryker was named) is a done deal as long as the Stryker lives...

Yea, DJ & I go back a ways at Ft Knox. He hired me to be a tank platoon leader in D Troop, 10th Cavalry, way back in 1988. I have several stories that will have to wait but when the talk shifts to the days when giants roamed the earth, he was one of them as the type of BC that he was became extinct in the PC days of the 1990's.

John

Sabot
Joined: December 18, 2001
KitMaker: 12,587 posts
Armorama: 9,062 posts
Posted: Saturday, October 19, 2002 - 04:32 AM UTC
Ah yes, the days of the JD Thurmans and Smokin' Joe Morgans and REFORGERs were corps level maneuvers across the German countryside. Man those were fun days.
210cav
Visit this Community
Virginia, United States
Joined: February 05, 2002
KitMaker: 6,133 posts
Armorama: 4,557 posts
Posted: Saturday, October 19, 2002 - 07:02 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Sabot,
I have been in RLS on Armorama for a while & finally got off of my butt and enlisted... My rumor mill has it that the 2d Cavalry Regiment (we dropped the Armored part in Oct-Nov 00 for the term "Interim" & dropped "Interim" in May of 02, when the Stryker was named) is a done deal as long as the Stryker lives...

Yea, DJ & I go back a ways at Ft Knox. He hired me to be a tank platoon leader in D Troop, 10th Cavalry, way back in 1988. I have several stories that will have to wait but when the talk shifts to the days when giants roamed the earth, he was one of them as the type of BC that he was became extinct in the PC days of the 1990's.

John




John--my past comes to haunt me. Please send me a personal message at Djudge@ewa.com so we can discuss old times. Noble Soldiers of Delta Troop! My Band of Brothers.
Good hearing from you,
DJ