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For discussions on tanks, artillery, jeeps, etc.
A guntruck idea i have would it work?
Armor135
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Posted: Sunday, March 03, 2002 - 11:42 PM UTC

Hey guys whats up this would be my first actual post and i want to say what a really cool site this is.

So here is the idea for the guntruck I have. Heres the idea i have, i would get a M-50 Ontos and take the wheels off of it and place it in the back of the M35A2 kinda like they did with the M113 hull. I know i will have to convert the M35 into a 5ton that wont be much of a problem a friend of mine makes a conversion of teh 5ton. What I would like to know is would the M-50 Ontos fit in the back of the truck? Or would i just have to buy the kit and see if it fits? And one more thing, iam not exactly sure what they did but did they just lay the M113 hull in the back of the truck or was it welded down, what did they do?

Thanks,
Mike
GunTruck
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Posted: Sunday, March 03, 2002 - 11:49 PM UTC
Well Mike, welcome and that sounds like quite the ambitious project!

M113 Hulls were placed into the cargo boxes of the M54 and secured with two turnbuckles at the front corners. All suspension and running gear components were removed for this application, as well as the engine and interior equipment.

The Ontos was never placed into a M54 like this in "gun truck" fashion, but for a fantasy vehicle it would work - remove the suspension components too, and secure it like the M113 was. Only caveat with this is, the Ontos firings its weapons was a helluva lot more "interesting" than the M55 Quad AA Turret - the most powerful single weapon mounted on a gun truck during the war. I'd think more than a couple of turnbuckles would be needed to make a convincing fantasy gun truck.

Gunnie
puyallup7400
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Posted: Monday, March 04, 2002 - 07:40 AM UTC
Ontos on a guntruck!?!? Scary thought. 6 106mm RR, awesome firepower.

Just to be a butt about it, not a smart or practical idea . The back blast area has a fair cone area. Plus having to reload by hand in the open, the non-existent footing in the bed of a truck, under fire and on the move. As we all know, the first reaction to a convoy ambush is get out of Dodge. I’m sure someone had giving thought to it. Another factor was that only the Marines used the Ontos in Viet Nam. The weight of the Ontos would be less than a M-113 chassis and the recoilless nature of the weapons would not necessarily require extensive turnbuckles.

My fist assignment was to an Infantry Battalion in the HQ&SPT company. I was a 11C ‘mortar maggot’ with the 4.2in on the M-106. We also had a AT platoon with the M-151’s mounting the 106mm RR. We would get to cross train (read play) with other sections. Had several live fires with the 106mm, learn to respect the back blast area.

My two cents worth.

Dave


P.S. Gunnie, found your web site last Novermer or so. Love the trucks!!
TreadHead
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Posted: Monday, March 04, 2002 - 07:53 AM UTC
Where would he get the 1/35th scale Ontos model kit?
GunTruck
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Posted: Monday, March 04, 2002 - 08:38 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Where would he get the 1/35th scale Ontos model kit?



He could spend a pretty penny on the Hobby Fan resin 1/35scale Ontos. Though that would really be a waste of that much money and a fine little miniature all by itself. I don't want to squash anyone's excitement of the hobby, which is why I refrain from commenting about the likelyhood of such a road warrior and just offer encouragement...

Gunnie
ArmouredSprue
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Posted: Monday, March 04, 2002 - 09:25 AM UTC
Just curiosity Gunnie!
But how it would manage to aim? Does the Ontos fire system rotate?
That´s the question
TreadHead
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Posted: Monday, March 04, 2002 - 10:17 AM UTC
Howdy Gunnie, lol. Was just hoping that you had a 'magical' answer to the question. In other words I was hoping you'd say, Oh yeah, that's Tamiya model #1234! Or, that's Dragon models kit #4321.....but alas, it's not to be.

Maybe we should start an EMail campaign to AFV and have them make it! Now wouldn't THAT be just dandy?

Tread.
Sabot
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Posted: Monday, March 04, 2002 - 10:30 AM UTC

Quoted Text

But how it would manage to aim? Does the Ontos fire system rotate?

The six rifle rack is mounted on a turret that is more like a cupola than a turret. The commander is also the gunner and he can fire the rifles one at a time or in a step salvo (2 at once), even all six at once. Since recoiless rifles leave a tremendously large signature, the Ontos was designed to shoot and scoot. One, two or all six shots, then leave the area quickly. Four of the rifles are dismountable and each one of those comes with a .50 cal spotting rifle.

I for one, would not want to be on the back of a truck when it fired a salvo, let alone all six.
210cav
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Posted: Monday, March 04, 2002 - 07:30 PM UTC
Gunnie--this is an example of an active imagination at work. Can you imagine firing an M-106 RR off a truck? Dang...the back blast would knock you into next week. Wonderful weapon. We had two in a mechanized infantry company. They were mounted on specially designed M151 jeeps. We fired them in either a mounted or dismounted mode. The firing blast was deafening. If there was anything in the back blast area, it was toast. I can just see someone in a small country coming up with this novel idea and being blown up before your very own eyes on CNN.
DJ
GunTruck
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Posted: Monday, March 04, 2002 - 10:29 PM UTC
DJ - I like hypothetical vehicles too. I once built a Heavy Hummer variant with a 4.2" mortar mounted in the rear compartment. This was a Armament Carrier obviously with beefed-up suspension components. I made a ready round tray that could be pulled out of the rear left door. I also added a Scout Cavalry Motorcycle and Transport Rack on the rear of the vehicle. I built this fun model from the old ESCI/ERTL M998 HMMWV back in 1991. When IPMS/USA created the Hypothetical Category at the Nationals - my Hummer won the very first First Place award in this class in 1994. Aside from that, the model won 30 other awards and always generated positive conversation about whether or not it could have been fielded sucessfully - some observers never knew, and the Army guys who saw it grinned and enjoyed it. I guess I built and detailed it enough to be convincing - armor hypotheticals are fun too.

Gunnie
GunTruck
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Posted: Monday, March 04, 2002 - 10:32 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Howdy Gunnie, lol. Was just hoping that you had a 'magical' answer to the question. In other words I was hoping you'd say, Oh yeah, that's Tamiya model #1234! Or, that's Dragon models kit #4321.....but alas, it's not to be.

Maybe we should start an EMail campaign to AFV and have them make it! Now wouldn't THAT be just dandy?

Tread.



Well Tread - AFV Club DID the Ontos already - sort of. Hobby Fan is affiliated with AFV Club, their team releases more expensive items.

Gunnie
210cav
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Posted: Monday, March 04, 2002 - 10:33 PM UTC
Gunnie--creative is the essence of modeling pleasure. May it always remain so
DJ
GunTruck
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Posted: Monday, March 04, 2002 - 10:37 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Just curiosity Gunnie!
But how it would manage to aim? Does the Ontos fire system rotate?
That´s the question



The crew would have to physically aim the gun truck itself, actually, at the enemy troop concentration. Like Sabot said, I wouldn't want to be behind the Ontos when it cut loose - perhaps a blast deflector would be mounted behind the cab but that wouldn't satisify me. It wouldn't be a practical defensive weapon in the convoy escort role like the actual gun trucks were employed. The VC also moved pretty fast, I doubt the truckers would have had the fortune to pick a spot to setup an Ontos-armed gun truck for firing like that.

Gunnie
GunTruck
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Posted: Monday, March 04, 2002 - 10:39 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Gunnie--this is an example of an active imagination at work. Can you imagine firing an M-106 RR off a truck? Dang...the back blast would knock you into next week. Wonderful weapon. We had two in a mechanized infantry company. They were mounted on specially designed M151 jeeps. We fired them in either a mounted or dismounted mode. The firing blast was deafening. If there was anything in the back blast area, it was toast. I can just see someone in a small country coming up with this novel idea and being blown up before your very own eyes on CNN.
DJ



DJ - I believe I have a black&white photo of Angloan troops mounting the 106 on the back of a Hummer Cargo/Troop Carrier from an old Museum Ordnance issue. I'll go digging around to see if I can find it for you. From accounts, this was a successful marriage of weapon and vehicle - though I doubt those guys stood behind it when they fired it!

Gunnie :-)
GunTruck
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Posted: Monday, March 04, 2002 - 10:45 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Gunnie--creative is the essence of modeling pleasure. May it always remain so
DJ



Absolutely Sir! If you can't have fun doing this - why do it?!?

Gunnie
210cav
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Posted: Tuesday, March 05, 2002 - 01:18 AM UTC
Gunnie---I'd love to see the photos of those clowns driving around with a 106. Bet they never fired a shot with it.
thanks
DJ
GunTruck
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Posted: Tuesday, March 05, 2002 - 01:53 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Gunnie---I'd love to see the photos of those clowns driving around with a 106. Bet they never fired a shot with it.
thanks
DJ



I dunno - reports are that they were duking it out pretty fiercely in the Angolan Wars during the 1980's. Both sides were going after each other with whatever they could get.

Gunnie
210cav
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Posted: Tuesday, March 05, 2002 - 02:09 AM UTC
Regardless, I bet the "crew" that manned the system deeply regreted being among the chosen! Whoosh, and she is gone.
DJ
Armor135
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Posted: Tuesday, March 05, 2002 - 03:04 AM UTC
Ok thanks guys for all of your help. And i guess it does kinda makes sense that it would take a lot of time to aim the guns on the Ontos.

Mike
210cav
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Posted: Tuesday, March 05, 2002 - 03:19 AM UTC
Mike--not really. Each 106 has a .50 Cal spotting rifle attached to it. You sight on a target, pull the control handle and out goes the .50 round. It hits the target area and you then push the same handle and out goes the round. You immediately put the vehicle in reverse and hightail to the next position in the ensuing dust cloud caused by the backblast. Shooting and running real quick (poor English) is essential for survival. It's not a long range system either. We estimated that an area target could be hit at 1100 meters and a point target (like a tank) at no more then 800 meters as I recall. I now assume against the front slope of a tank at 800 meters that the penetration power would be diminished to that of a loud tap on the hull. No one in those days used ballistic firing tables to set up a decent range card. Thank my lucky stars we never used them for real.
DJ
GeneralFailure
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Posted: Tuesday, March 05, 2002 - 03:30 AM UTC
We used to have quadruple .50 AA gun mounted in the back of 5 ton MAN trucks. A mechanical system prohibited the guns to accidently fire into the back of the gun cabin.
In the case of such recoilless gun - apart from other inpracticalities and danger - you'd have to prevent both the guns to shoot into the cabin back and the back blast to scorch the cabin. That takes away half the compass' directions to shoot. Not very practical for such fierce weapon system...

Armor135
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Posted: Tuesday, March 05, 2002 - 09:37 AM UTC
Ok thanks guys, I guess i can give it a try and see what will work and if it fits in the truck. Another thing, does any company make shells for teh 106mm. RR? or crates that size?

Mike
Sabot
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Posted: Tuesday, March 05, 2002 - 10:18 AM UTC
Yes, Skybow sells the M40A1 RR separately as #35102 and it includes, according to pictures, about 6 106mm rounds. The M38A1C Jeep kit does not include the rounds, but has some in the shipping tubes (6).
tankbuster
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Posted: Tuesday, March 05, 2002 - 08:46 PM UTC
to armor 135
-I have the same project, so lets shake hands for sharing the same idea. But I will add
a M113. My question is, does your friend make the conversions for friends only, or are they
for sale. I ordered the Plus-Model conversion from 2 companies, but did not receive
anything sofar. Thus I am looking for other sources.
-I served as M106 Gunner /Troop commander in the Austrian Army. I cannot imagine
how an Ontos and it's crew would behave in combat as handling on of these guns
is already very tricky. Not to forget the rear blast..
But I must omit, that I hated this gun and I have only one nickname for her "Bit.."
-Please do not purchase the M160 Ammu from MR-Models as they reproduced the
exercise granades and these have a different shape in comparison to the
"sharp" brother...

regards, werner
210cav
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Posted: Tuesday, March 05, 2002 - 08:56 PM UTC
Werner--Amen, well said. Thanks for the input.
DJ :-)