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Armor/AFV: Allied - WWII
Armor and ground forces of the Allied forces during World War II.
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CMP (FAT) Quad
AlanL
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Posted: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 03:10 AM UTC
Greetings all,

Does anyone know know how widely the CMP (FAT) QUAD was used in the NWE theatre of war? I know it was still widely used in Italy but I'' not too sure if it was used in NWE or had been replaced by the Priest and Sexton by that point in the war.

Any interesting links of pics greatly welcome.

Thanks

Al
MrRoo
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Posted: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 03:48 AM UTC
The CMP Quad in all guises was used right through WW2 by the british, Commonwealth and British supplied units (polish etc). It also served in Korea with the British & Commonwealth units as well.

Cheers
Cliff
tankmodeler
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Posted: Tuesday, April 04, 2006 - 09:46 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I know it was still widely used in Italy but I''m not too sure if it was used in NWE or had been replaced by the Priest and Sexton by that point in the war.


The Sexton never replaced the towed 25 pdr and was never intended to. The Sexton was a weapon designed to be employed by the Arty regiments of the Armoured divisions (and the SP regiments of AGRAs) and was not issued (or intended to be issued) to infantry division regiments or standard AGRA field regiments at all. In fact the two field regiments equipped with Priests for the D-Day landings were quickly converted back to towed 25 pdrs after the landings.

On that basis, the CMP based FATs were the most widely seen FATs for all the Commonwealth towed Field Regiments. Italy, NW Europe and even the later desert. If'n I remember correctly, there were more CMP FATs built (almost 23,000) than any of the original British designs.

Ford and Chev FATs of all three cab designs (the No.11, the No. 12 [Tamiya kit] and the No.13 [Italeri kit]) could be seen in active regiments right up until the final surrender.

HTH

Paul
AlanL
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Posted: Tuesday, April 04, 2006 - 05:17 PM UTC
Hi Paul,

Thanks for that. I new the FAT's was around for a long time, and found lots of references for N Africia and Italy but had some difficulitty location reference for NWE.

That was interesting to know that the two field regiments equipped with M7 Priests converted back to towed artillery. Do you have any more detail on that, or a link I could follow. I also have plans for a Canadian M7 on Nan Red Beach on D Day. Have reference to one being disabled by a mine and I thought it might make a more interesting passanger for the LCM, although a truck would be more appropriate.

I've came across some interestign Photo's on IWM late last night, so lots of possibilities there. There's also a great site at

http://www.oldcmp.net/15cwtindex.html

which I'm sure you are aware of.

I got the impression Ford FAT's were more common in N Africia and Italy and that Chevy FAT's were more common in NWE, although from what you say it wouldn't matter which type was in which theatre of war.

Apart form the 'Mickey Mouse' camo scheme have you seen reference for other camo types? I imagine the 'MM' scheme might be quite hard to hand paint and get right, then again maybe not!

Would you have any reference for Commanders vehicles in terms of antenna and radio/seating arangements within a command vehicle?

What's the difference between a No 11 Cab and a No 12 Cab? I know the 12 was on the Fords and the 13 on the Chevys.

Did Fords sometimes have the No 13 Cab and did Chevys sometimes have the No 12 Cab? In other words is any combination possible?

Yip, the 25 pdr was a good field gun, stayed around in service for years. It's a pity there's no 1/35 plastic injection kit of the Sexton - at least not yet.

Sorry for all the questions, but any additional data or links would be appreciated.

Thanks again for the info.

Al


AlanL
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Posted: Tuesday, April 04, 2006 - 07:29 PM UTC
Hi Derek,

Good question. If I sent the vehicle in n Africa/Italy in 42/43, then would the Bty/Tp Cmdrs have used this vehicle in forward areas or would they just have used jeeps?

If it's NWE then it would be the Gun Positions Officers vehicle as FO's and Bty Cmdrs would have be mechanised, probably Cromwells/Valentines - right?

I have the Tamiya Ford so I'm thinking Italy at the moment as it will make a nice change from the OD of NWE and they seem to have been more common in that theatre of war. However, I also have the Italeri Chevy on route and when it arrives I was thinking NWE for that one.

The vehicles could either be British or Commonwealth but I need to do some more research into which Units provided artillery support in the following settings.

Canadians - Nan Red, D Day, they had M7's on the beach or
British - Arty Spt connected to 2 IG (Armd) could either be Op Goodwood or Market Garden or
British - Arty Spt 1NY NWE exact area not yet decided.
alternatively
British/Commonwealth - Italy/N Africa setting not yet decided as I need to do more research on operations and units involved. It could be earlier or later but I also have on route the 6 pdr Portee and there might be a possibility of linking the two vehicles into one setting.

If it's a command vehicle would the back seating have been removed and a table/radio installed? I haven't yet found any pictures of a command vehicles showing antenna position etc.

Thanks for the link to your site, that's really excellent and will help me track down suitable units, locations and timings.

Sorry if this all sounds a bit vague, but I need a break from my Sherman fix and still have lots of research to do on FAT's and Trucks.

Cheers

Al

Update thanks to your excellent site:

Two possible units for the N Africia/Italy theatre of war.

12 RHA (Honerable Artillety Company) (TA)

had 25 pde & Quad up to Feb 43 in N Africia and Tunisia then M7's in Italy

and

11 RHA (Honerable Artillery Company) (TA)

had 25 pdr and Quad in N Africia until Jun 42 then M7's from Oct 42 in N Africia/Scicily and Italy.

Thanks

Al

2nd Edit

Fot NWE it loos like 33 (Wessex) Field Regiment RA (TA) would be a good match for the Guards Armoured Div and they had 25 pdrs.

Thanks a lot Derek.

Al

ukgeoff
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Posted: Tuesday, April 04, 2006 - 08:48 PM UTC

Quoted Text

What's the difference between a No 11 Cab and a No 12 Cab? I know the 12 was on the Fords and the 13 on the Chevys.



The No 11, 12 and 13 cabs were both used by Ford and Chevrolet, just the grill mesh, badge and other minor details were different. The most visable difference between the No 11 and 12 was the engine access. On the 11, there were two hinged flaps on top of the bonnet (hood). The No12 introduced the "alligator" hood, as found on the Tamiya kit. A distinguishing feature to tell the No 11 from the No 12 is the horizontal divide near the top of the grill on the No 12.
AlanL
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Posted: Tuesday, April 04, 2006 - 09:20 PM UTC
Hi Derek,

Thanks for that. The idiots guide in the Tamiya kit lists the second vehicle for NWE as a Commanders Vehicle which was why I raised the question. If they used M3's, jeeps and carriers (which would make sense) then I might be better just to build it as a straight quad. I have an old M3 which I could convert to a Command Vehicle if I can get some details on the interior layout. (The interior seating has already been removed)

I've sourced some units which I think would fit in with my schemes but will need to look for more specific data. (see edits in previous post)

Thanks for all you help it's been excellent. trucks are like Shermans - many variations!!! What's a 15cwt FFW?

For Geoff,

Thanks for the info on the different types of Cabs, that also helps a lot.

Bye for now!!!

Cheers

Al
AlanL
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Posted: Tuesday, April 04, 2006 - 11:19 PM UTC
Hi derek,

Thanks for that. I would have recognised W/T. Must get some new glasses 33 - 55!!!

Cheers

Al
MrRoo
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Posted: Wednesday, April 05, 2006 - 02:33 AM UTC

Quoted Text



The most visable difference between the No 11 and 12 was the engine access. On the 11, there were two hinged flaps on top of the bonnet (hood). .



The #11 cab had a small flat panel which was fixed with a screw in each corner which gave access to the engine. It was NOT hinged. It also had a one piece grill and the radiator cap was on the exterior of the engine bay. The early production did not have vents either side of the grill. The later production had vents in the flat square panel either side of the grill. Ford had rectangular holes covered by a lourve (Tamiya Quad kit). Chev had a round vent with fine mesh in it.

#12 was the same as the Tamiya kit and as such had a two piece grill. Front vents the same as the 11 cab.

Fords had square mesh in the grill and Chev had diagonal.

On the later models (#12 & #13 cabs) if you looked under the front the Ford had Ford produced split type axles while the Chev had banjo type axles. On early #11 cab vehicles Ford used the early Chevrolet one piece banjo axle because at the time Ford did not have it's own front drive axles.

Cheers
Cliff
MrRoo
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Posted: Wednesday, April 05, 2006 - 02:38 AM UTC

Quoted Text



There's also a great site at

http://www.oldcmp.net/15cwtindex.html

which I'm sure you are aware of.




http://www.oldcmp.net/15cwtindex.html

A warning about this site. A lot of the vehicles are the Australian versions of the different CMP models and are different to the English/Canadian models.

Other then that you are right it is a great site.

Cheers
Cliff
AlanL
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Posted: Wednesday, April 05, 2006 - 04:37 AM UTC
Hi Cliff,

Thanks for that additional information. How much of it will remain in my small brian remains to be determined. However, as I have some 'Trucks' planned for the coming months no doubt I'll be revisiting some of this in the near future.

Thanks to all who conrtibuted I now know much more about artillery units than I did this morning although I've only just touched the surface.

Cheers

Al



tankmodeler
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Posted: Wednesday, April 05, 2006 - 04:40 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I got the impression Ford FAT's were more common in N Africia and Italy and that Chevy FAT's were more common in NWE, although from what you say it wouldn't matter which type was in which theatre of war.


It's not that the Fords were more common in the desert or N. Africa, but the No.11 and 12 cabbed vehicles (be they Ford or Chev) as they were made earlier. The No13 cab started to arrive in late 1942, so the later battles of the war would naturally have more of the later vehicles. Still, No 11 cabs are found in service right up until the end of the war in rare cases. The rest had clapped out and had been discarded.


Quoted Text

British/Commonwealth - Italy/N Africa setting not yet decided as I need to do more research on operations and units involved.


Well, if you want a North Africa setting for an uncommon Commonwealth unit, you could do a Quad & 25 pdr belonging to 166 (NFLD) Army Field Regiment which served in Tunisia in 1943 and then in Italy after that. Newfoundland was a separate Dominion and member of the Commonwealth at that point. The vehicles would have been in Light Mud with Black disruptive. Markings upon request. :-)


Quoted Text

It could be earlier or later but I also have on route the 6 pdr Portee and there might be a possibility of linking the two vehicles into one setting.


Other than passing on the road (which would happen often enough as units moved across the battlefield), a 6 pdr and a 25 pdr would seldom/never operate together unless the fecal matter was definitely impacting the aerial propulsor. I've never heard of such an occasion.

Regards,

Paul
AlanL
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Posted: Wednesday, April 05, 2006 - 02:45 PM UTC
Hi Paul,

Thanks for that additional information about the cab types.

The uncommon Commonwealth sounds interesting, would you have a link where I could read up about the unit and if you be kind enough to send some further details details that would be great.

Not only do I now know a good deal more about artillery units but I gained very useful knowledge about these vehicles.

Thanks for taking the time to reply. I've PM my email addres if you need it.

Cheers

Al

AlanL
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Posted: Wednesday, April 05, 2006 - 08:13 PM UTC
Hi, Derek,

That sound quite possible. I have 11 RHA down as one of the units I wanted to find out more about - thanks for that geneal outline of the action, I'll look for more data.

As the war in the desert was very mobile I imagine that there were frequent occasions where units got mixed up and ended up fighting along side each other, even if they weren't actually attached to each other.

People get lost, turn left instead of right, break down and get left behine - there was a lot of FUBAR in the desert war as there is in all military actions - so anythings possible.

That also widens the scope as I believe that on several occasions some artillery units played a direct role in the fighting, engaging the enemy from close range and used the 25pdr as an AT weapon.

Thanks again

Al
Halfyank
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Posted: Wednesday, April 05, 2006 - 09:17 PM UTC
I LOVE threads like this. The information listed here is very interesting, and informative. For example I always assumed the Tamiya and Italeri kits were of the exact same vehicle, with just the differences the two model companies put into the kits. Now I may have to go out and get the Italeri kit, just so I can have one of each.
AlanL
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Posted: Wednesday, April 05, 2006 - 10:47 PM UTC
Hi Derek,

I think I read a bit about that action some years ago. I had a good book about the N African campaign but I can't seen to put my hands on it at the moment.

I'll look for some information on the S Notts Hussars, for me it's the history that makes the models come alive - but I'm sure I forget more than I remember. That would really open up some Dio possibilities.

War produces many new things. The concept of Infantry and Armour working in tandum was born in a field in France 90 minutes before battle began. Having taken a pasting in their first battle because of lack of infantry support the Guards Armoured Division decided to mount their infantry on the tanks and from that moment infantry and armour always fought together. In the case of 2IG (Armd) the Coldstream Guards happended to be in the next field and so they became the 'tank riders' for the remainder of that campaign. The principal survives to this day with the concept of an armoured brigade made up of tanks and infantry supporting each other with engineer, logistic and artillery support.

The FAT Ford's progressing nicely with all the 'plumbing' and wheel assembly done. Time for a bit of reading me thinks.

Cheers

Al

For Roger, check out the link to the RA site it's packed with useful information.

AlanL
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Posted: Thursday, April 06, 2006 - 09:42 PM UTC
Hi Derek,

Thanks for that, another one to add to the list.

Cheers

Al