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Armor/AFV
For discussions on tanks, artillery, jeeps, etc.
German Armor Help
Chief
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Washington, United States
Joined: February 07, 2002
KitMaker: 498 posts
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Posted: Thursday, March 21, 2002 - 01:33 PM UTC
Ok Armor Dudes, 2 questions:

1) I want to build a German Tank or SP Gun, what kits do you suggest that are detailed with PE and have single link tracks?

2) Can somebody help me make heads or tails out of the German designation system, ie pzkf ausf ABCD 123456 I II III IV Beob Panther A D F G etc. etc. I understand the U.S. and the British to some extent, but am totally clueless on German.
KMM
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Posted: Thursday, March 21, 2002 - 01:52 PM UTC
Ok, here's what I know. I'm sure there are people here who can add a lot more.

1. Every DML kit comes with single link tracks, as far as I know, and a lot come with PE. A Stug III C/D kit I have, for example, has both. DML are also very nicely detailed and have a lot of parts. Look for the fine print on the side of the box, it generally says whether it has PE or not. The only DML I would steer you away from is the PzIVJ - its a real dog.

2. Here's a short run-down.
Pz I - lite training tank
PzII - lite tank, generally fitted w/ machine gun
PzIII - Germany's early war main battle tank, relegated to infantry-support role later in the war.
PzIV - early war infantry-support tank, later up-gunned and armored to become their main battle tank. Chasis was also the basis for many other vehicles.
PzV - Panther, medium tank w/ sloped armor - possibly the best tank of the war
PzVI - the famous Tiger Tank, very heavily armed and armored
PzVI - Tiger II or King Tiger - an even bigger, nastier version of the tiger.
Sturmgeshutz or Stug - assault gun
Nashorn & Hetzer- A/T
Hummel and Sig - tracked artillery
Beob - these were command vehicles, I think
And any thing with a "Jagd" in front of it was a tank-hunter

As for the A, B, C, etc designations, they work much like they do with American combat aircraft. The initial version is A, the next upgraded version is B, and so on. The only exemption to this that I know of, is the Panther. If I remember correctly, the G model came before the D model for some reason. Any help guys?

Hope that helps some.
TheGame
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Joined: February 25, 2002
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Posted: Thursday, March 21, 2002 - 02:26 PM UTC
I think I read in a German tank book that the A, B, C, D, etc really didn't always go in order. I think a different letter came before the A on the first version of the Panther AusfA.
I'll look for that book and see what I can find.
TheGame
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Posted: Thursday, March 21, 2002 - 03:05 PM UTC
The Panther went: D, A, G, F
Sabot
Joined: December 18, 2001
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Posted: Thursday, March 21, 2002 - 08:48 PM UTC

Quoted Text


1) I want to build a German Tank or SP Gun, what kits do you suggest that are detailed with PE and have single link tracks?

KMM gave you a good rundown on the various tank types. I would point out that the Pz I was originally a frontline tank and was used against the Polish during the 1939 invasion. Goes to show you that the only tank in town is the baddest tank around. The term "PanzerKampfwagen" literally means "armored battle wagon" and "panzer" now is synomous with the word "tank". The letter is usually preceded by the abbreviation "Ausf." or "Ausferung" (sp?) which basically means "mark" or "version".

DML makes some great German armor kits, and the later Tamiya kits (kits designed after they stopped motorizing the hulls) are some of the best around. Tamiya kits do not have single link tracks. Also there are several kits made by Alan, a Russian company. I have a few of these, a Bison II, SdKfz 124 Wespe (Wasp) and a SdKfz 122 Marder II D. Very nice little kits that are well detailed and definitely worth a look. Squadron puts these on special (check their website) often. They all have single link tracks and the Marder and Bison both have PE muffler guards. Alan also makes the standard panzer version of these kits.
pipesmoker
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Virginia, United States
Joined: January 31, 2002
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Posted: Thursday, March 21, 2002 - 09:17 PM UTC

Quoted Text

2) Can somebody help me make heads or tails out of the German designation system, ie pzkf ausf ABCD 123456 I II III IV Beob Panther A D F G etc


Ok, Chief, here ya go...
PzkfW - Panzerkampfwagen - tank - ie PzkfW I, PzkfW II, PzkfW III etc.
Ausf. - Ausfürhrung - model (A,B,C,D etc. usually in sequence ie. PzkfW IIIE or IVD or Stug IIIF)
If there was a variant within an Ausf. it had a number added ie. PzkfW IVF or F1 and F2
As The Game said, the Panther was an exception to this rule. The first model was D, followed by A then G the F.
Beob - beobachtung(sp?) - observation
Stug - Sturmgeschütz

HTH
RufusLeeking
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Joined: January 18, 2002
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Posted: Thursday, March 21, 2002 - 10:08 PM UTC
Here's another German tank question. The names Panther and Tiger, are these names the Germans gave these tanks or just what the Allies called them? Like the Japanese "Zero", etc...

Ron C.
Ashtabula, OH.

m1garand
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Posted: Thursday, March 21, 2002 - 10:25 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Here's another German tank question. The names Panther and Tiger, are these names the Germans gave these tanks or just what the Allies called them? Like the Japanese "Zero", etc...

Ron C.
Ashtabula, OH.




Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Hitler may have given those names.
Chief
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Joined: February 07, 2002
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Posted: Thursday, March 21, 2002 - 10:27 PM UTC
:-) MAN I LOVE THIS site!!!!!!!! :-) As usual, a plethora (I just learned that word) of info from a GREAT BUNCH OF FOLKs, thanks!!! Wednesday was my 40th B-day and I am going to treat myself to a new kit to add to the stack. Probably a Stug or Pzkw III or IV. Also, momma says I can buy a new compressor too! :-)
Sabot
Joined: December 18, 2001
KitMaker: 12,593 posts
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Posted: Thursday, March 21, 2002 - 10:28 PM UTC
Hitler wanted names to strike fear. They were German designations. The only light tank to get a name was the Pz II Ausf. L "Luchs" or Lynx, it was used as a reconnaissance tank. There as an 8-wheeled reconnaissance vehicle to get a cat name, it was the Puma (same name in English as in German). Self-propelled guns got insect names like "Wespe" (Wasp), "Hummel" (Bumblebee), "Grille" (Cricket). Large assault guns had names like "Brummbar" (Grizzly Bear) or "Bison" (Bison). The smaller ones stayed with StuG.
Tin_Can
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Posted: Thursday, March 21, 2002 - 10:38 PM UTC

Quoted Text

:-) MAN I LOVE THIS site!!!!!!!! :-) As usual, a plethora (I just learned that word) of info from a GREAT BUNCH OF FOLKs, thanks!!! Wednesday was my 40th B-day and I am going to treat myself to a new kit to add to the stack. Probably a Stug or Pzkw III or IV. Also, momma says I can buy a new compressor too! :-)



Congrats on the B-Day and on buying the compressor. The ole tax refund is coming will be here in a few days and I'm also buying a compressor. Can't wait!
Sabot
Joined: December 18, 2001
KitMaker: 12,593 posts
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Posted: Thursday, March 21, 2002 - 10:45 PM UTC

Quoted Text

...I am going to treat myself to a new kit to add to the stack. Probably a Stug or Pzkw III or IV...

Happy birthday! One of the best StuG you can get is the Tamiya StuG III Ausf. G. I traded for one and that kit is a beauty. Avoid the older one as it looks toy-like compared to the new one. You can tell the new one since the box labels it as a "Fruhe" or "Early" version. Tamiya also makes a PE set for it or the Pz III Ausf. L engine intakes. (There also is the old Tamiya Pz III Ausf. M/N which is toy-like too). These kits do not have individual tracks, but the vinyl tracks are excellently detailed. DML also makes individual track links for this kit as well.
pipesmoker
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Joined: January 31, 2002
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Posted: Thursday, March 21, 2002 - 10:48 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Wednesday was my 40th B-day and I am going to treat myself to a new kit to add to the stack. Probably a Stug or Pzkw III or IV.


Happy Birthday, Chief. The big 4-0 huh?
See if you can find the new Tamiya Stug IIIG or the DML Stug IIIF or F8. Nice kits and the DML have single link tracks. Or if you want to build Afrika Korps, get the DML Pz IIIF2.
herberta
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Joined: March 06, 2002
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Posted: Friday, March 22, 2002 - 12:50 AM UTC
If you are interested in an Early version Stug III, I have built DML's Stug IIIb

It's a nice kit, very well detailed with indy link tracks and a bit of PE.

The DML StugIV kits are nice too (I have built the early version, and have drooled on the late version I have in the "to build" pile!).

Cheers
Andy
GunTruck
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Joined: December 01, 2001
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Posted: Friday, March 22, 2002 - 03:39 AM UTC
Ya'll just try and keep this post going a little longer, okay. 'Ol Gunnie is pulling up a chair to learn a little more about German AFV's too...

Gunnie
m1garand
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Posted: Friday, March 22, 2002 - 04:03 AM UTC
Here's a good pic of a destroyed panther if interested.

http://members.tripod.com/hldnoqtr/panther2.htm
Kencelot
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Joined: December 27, 2001
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Posted: Friday, March 22, 2002 - 04:13 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Ya'll just try and keep this post going a little longer, okay. 'Ol Gunnie is pulling up a chair to learn a little more about German AFV's too...

Gunnie



I'm included on that too! :-) Always willing to expand my knowledge of all things modeled! :-)

Happy B-Day Chief!
RufusLeeking
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Posted: Friday, March 22, 2002 - 04:19 AM UTC
Cool foto M1...I noticed that there is no zimmerit on that tank, I thought that was a pretty standard practice on most Panthers?
m1garand
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Posted: Friday, March 22, 2002 - 04:29 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Cool foto M1...I noticed that there is no zimmerit on that tank, I thought that was a pretty standard practice on most Panthers?



Good point, I don't do German vehicles so I didn't even notice.
RufusLeeking
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Posted: Friday, March 22, 2002 - 04:33 AM UTC
Well I am sure Pipesmoker Ron, will know the answer. I have a Panther kit I bought about a month ago that I'm itching to start on, but I want to finish the two other kits I've started first.