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REVIEW
CyberHobby Panther F - Build Review
jimbrae
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Posted: Friday, March 30, 2007 - 03:20 AM UTC
Herbert Ackermans (H_Ackermans) has just published a Full-Build review of Cyber-Hobby''s Panther F in 1/35th scale. A very complete Review which goes into the history and development of this interesting variant along with providing some first-class build notes. Herbert''s review along with MANY images, can be seen:

Panther F Build Review (LINK)

If you have comments or questions please post them here.

Thanks!

WingTzun
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Posted: Friday, March 30, 2007 - 04:42 AM UTC
Nice Review Herbert. Thanks. Although some will surely see it as overkill, I'ld like to see Dragon/Cyber-Hobby follow it up with an accurate Panther II as well.
404NotFound
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Posted: Friday, March 30, 2007 - 04:52 AM UTC
Thank you for the very helpful review.

I too would like to see a better Panther II kit.

If possible, could you explain more about this barrel extender on the MP44 assault rifle? I'm a little perplexed about this as the Osprey book illustrates a MP44 muzzle protruding thru the ball mount.
Plasticbattle
#003
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Posted: Friday, March 30, 2007 - 04:59 AM UTC
Excellent review Herbert. Very professional and very concise. Anybody wishing to build this model, will be glad to add this review, to their references. Hopefully we´ll see more reviews from you, in the future.
Eventhough, I don´t have this model and probably wont either, theres just the right amount of info to keep it interesting and memorable.
mark197205
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Posted: Friday, March 30, 2007 - 06:15 AM UTC
Very nice job Herbert, hopefully we will see more reviews from you in the future.
RichardM
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Posted: Friday, March 30, 2007 - 06:20 AM UTC
Great job Herbert. Very informative review.

Saw it this week at my LHS but at $100 I left it there
PantherF
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Posted: Friday, March 30, 2007 - 06:38 AM UTC
Very well done Herbert.


Jeff
H_Ackermans
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Posted: Friday, March 30, 2007 - 02:31 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Thank you for the very helpful review.

I too would like to see a better Panther II kit.

If possible, could you explain more about this barrel extender on the MP44 assault rifle? I'm a little perplexed about this as the Osprey book illustrates a MP44 muzzle protruding thru the ball mount.



Thanks for the nice comments!

The way the MP-44 was used in this kit, and I admit, it's not something I've seen in drawings in any of my books, is that the MP-44 is inserted a very short way into the rear of the MG-ball, and that a tube extends forward.

It is like the Vorsatz P used on an experimental basis in some JagdPanzer IV and Stug IV. This used an MP-44 which could be inserted vertically into a contraption fitted to the roof featuring a curved tube, allowing 360 degree fire around the tank.

The drawings in Panzer Tracts 5-4 of the Panther-F do not show a tube fitted to the MG-ball.

About an accurate Panther II, Atelier Infinite will be releasing a resin Panther II which as far as I've been able to gather from picture on their site, seems to be based on the info in PT 5-4. It comes in 2 variants, one with the Ausf. G turret mounted by the Americans, and one with a turret modelled after the turret drawn in PT 5-4 based on designs for the Turm Panther 2 (schmale Blende ausführung) from 1943 and the Panther Turm (Schmale Blende) from 1944. The latter is probably not part of the Panther II program as that had already been cancelled by then, and can best be regarded a continuation in the search for a new Panther turret.

As said, the Atelier Infinite Panther II looks very accurate, but it is also expensive and being completely in resin, isn't one for the casual builder.
404NotFound
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Posted: Friday, March 30, 2007 - 06:44 PM UTC
Thanks for the reply!

Another problem I have with the MP44 ball mount, is that at cursory examination, it appears so far set back that the butt would likely clobber the crewman in the face. It doesn't look very practical as such and I am very curious to know the source of information by which Cyber-Hobby came up with this configuration. On the other hand, maybe it sits no further back than an MG34...

I'd seen that resin Panther II on their site. It's a bit expensive. I'll wait for what's probably the inevitable Cyber-Hobby Panther II.

Hmmm... Not good about the track hangers. I have an unbuilt Tamiya Panther. I wonder if I could use something from that...

Well, I suppose I'll get to starting my first Panther F. I may have mentioned this here before, but I purchased two. One to finish in overall olivgrun and the second in a three-color camo finish. For that one, I intend to mimic the three-color camo on the Schmalturm that was sent to England. Again, I seriously have to wonder about a turret in such a finish. I am by no means an expert, but common sense and the photographic evidence seems to dictate that most camo painting was done AFTER assembling turrets to hulls and not before...
H_Ackermans
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Posted: Friday, March 30, 2007 - 07:07 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Thanks for the reply!

Another problem I have with the MP44 ball mount, is that at cursory examination, it appears so far set back that the butt would likely clobber the crewman in the face. It doesn't look very practical as such and I am very curious to know the source of information by which Cyber-Hobby came up with this configuration. On the other hand, maybe it sits no further back than an MG34...

I'd seen that resin Panther II on their site. It's a bit expensive. I'll wait for what's probably the inevitable Cyber-Hobby Panther II.

Hmmm... Not good about the track hangers. I have an unbuilt Tamiya Panther. I wonder if I could use something from that...

Well, I suppose I'll get to starting my first Panther F. I may have mentioned this here before, but I purchased two. One to finish in overall olivgrun and the second in a three-color camo finish. For that one, I intend to mimic the three-color camo on the Schmalturm that was sent to England. Again, I seriously have to wonder about a turret in such a finish. I am by no means an expert, but common sense and the photographic evidence seems to dictate that most camo painting was done AFTER assembling turrets to hulls and not before...



I have now the comparison between the MP-44 and the MG-34 position having built the F and now the G Panther. The MG-34 sits about half the length of the MP-44 back. So, what does this mean? Perhaps little.

It could mean DML got it wrong, and the truth is that the MP-44 would have it's own barrel sticking out. Still, the way DML does it means that the MP-44 extends to beyond the forward edge of the hatch.

As to the camouflaged Schmalturm. The normal way of things at the end of the war was that the companies producing armour bodies delivered these basecoated in Oliv Grün, the plant carrying out the final production would apply the camouflage.

Pics of the Henschel plant after capture show several turrets on the production line in mono color, Oliv Grün. Even the hulls outside are mono color.

So.... let's toy a little here... what IF some Schmalturm did reach the end of the production line, were mounted on either a G or F chassis but didn't leave the factory? The turret with camo was retrieved from DB.

Officials from MAN stated that DB had delivered Ausf. F chassis with Ausf. G turrets. So.... could they have had some Schmalturme already installed on F chassis, painted and poised to be deployed? Speculation, we may never know.

But to make your choice of scheme a bit more difficult, there had been given orders to start using a new camouflage scheme starting July 1945, with the permission for factories to start applying this scheme earlier if they so could. A certain Tiger-B is finished that way....
wbill76
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Posted: Friday, March 30, 2007 - 09:48 PM UTC
Very thorough and informative review Herbert, hope to see more from you in the future.
404NotFound
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Posted: Saturday, March 31, 2007 - 01:02 AM UTC
I feel like I really need to find out about the MP44 ball mount, but information is utterly lacking.

Regarding the Schmalturm sent to the UK, to me it appears to be painted first in olivgrun, then dunkelgelb was added, then rotbraun on top.

A friend that has a Ph.D in history said something that always stuck with me. He said that very often in history, we just do not know what happened...

So when I see certain papal pronouncements about this is impossible and that never happened, they never did this and couldn't do that, I think of similar pronouncements about historical surprises like the Maus.

I used to have the color photos from D-B on my computer, but that crashed a ways back and I just haven't had time to do the recovery work. Always back up on CD, huh?

My intention is to model Fs that emerged from the factory in the very last day or two, so I'm trying to be as faithful as I can to all the late details that were applied to G hulls for instance.

I'm also curious to know if very late Panther Gs leaving D-B had the full compliment of tools, spare track, cables, etc. It seems that with a desperate battle raging close by, such accoutrements would be superfluous and unnecessary.

Now about this Tiger II in the July '45 camo? What is this? Any link?
H_Ackermans
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Posted: Saturday, March 31, 2007 - 01:16 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I feel like I really need to find out about the MP44 ball mount, but information is utterly lacking.



All that is said in PT 5-4 is that the MG-34 was replaced by a St. G. 44. Main reason, the MG-34 was no longer being produced.


Quoted Text

Regarding the Schmalturm sent to the UK, to me it appears to be painted first in olivgrun, then dunkelgelb was added, then rotbraun on top.



That fits the painting order of Oliv Grün basecoat applied at the armor forging companies.


Quoted Text

A friend that has a Ph.D in history said something that always stuck with me. He said that very often in history, we just do not know what happened...



Seeing as how thorough the Germans destroyed documents, that applies to this very well.


Quoted Text

So when I see certain papal pronouncements about this is impossible and that never happened, they never did this and couldn't do that, I think of similar pronouncements about historical surprises like the Maus.



Even Jentz can be easily contradicted on a number of his statements. For instance, there's no way he can explain a picture of a Panther-G with Zimmerit and Kampfraumheizung knocked out near Elst in September 1944. According to Jentz, the first G with a KRH was produced end of November '44.


Quoted Text

I used to have the color photos from D-B on my computer, but that crashed a ways back and I just haven't had time to do the recovery work. Always back up on CD, huh?



I have that one as well, now locked on HDDs in my non-booting PC... That line includes several Ausf. F hulls, I counted at least 9. Some care needs to be taken when judging the colors. They MUST be coated in Oliv Grün but the color shows up as greyish.


Quoted Text

My intention is to model Fs that emerged from the factory in the very last day or two, so I'm trying to be as faithful as I can to all the late details that were applied to G hulls for instance.

I'm also curious to know if very late Panther Gs leaving D-B had the full compliment of tools, spare track, cables, etc. It seems that with a desperate battle raging close by, such accoutrements would be superfluous and unnecessary.



We're still talking about Germans. Pictures of the line show the tube still being welded to the hulls, tool racks ready to be mounted. The last of the Tiger-Bs were also still outfitted with full tool complements.


Quoted Text

Now about this Tiger II in the July '45 camo? What is this? Any link?



Oh you know... Remember the number 8... tease tease.
404NotFound
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Posted: Saturday, March 31, 2007 - 02:37 AM UTC
Eight . . . Oct . . . Octopus!
H_Ackermans
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Posted: Saturday, March 31, 2007 - 02:46 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Eight . . . Oct . . . Octopus!



Bingo!
404NotFound
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Posted: Saturday, March 31, 2007 - 06:08 AM UTC
Will you be finishing your Panther F with the octopus camo?
H_Ackermans
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Posted: Saturday, March 31, 2007 - 03:28 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Will you be finishing your Panther F with the octopus camo?



That is my idea yes.
Charlie-66
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Posted: Sunday, April 01, 2007 - 06:29 PM UTC
Herbert, a very nice review. I have already printed it and tucked it into the box of this kit for when it hits my workbench. I can't wait to see your with paint on it.
404NotFound
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Posted: Monday, April 02, 2007 - 11:20 AM UTC
Some of the photos from D-B illustrate a Panther hull or two in welding jigs, so it's possible to see the bottom of the hulls. Are there any of these photos in color? Are they the greenish-grey color you describe?

I seem to remember reading somewhere that some Panther hull bottoms were left in a red primer.

On another note, I'd hope that someone would come up with a Panther F interior aftermarket kit, but that's probably unlikely as the C-H Panther F is a limited edition kit and secondly, a lot of the interior details, particularly regarding the Schmalturm, are probably unknown anyway...
SGTJKJ
#041
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Posted: Monday, April 02, 2007 - 01:34 PM UTC
Great review with lots of great historical information helping the builder to produce an accurate vehicle.

Thanks for the time and effort that obviously went into this review.

Now I am at a loss about the Octopus camouflage But I am very interested. Could somebody please fill me in

EDIT: I found a post here at the forum where a King Tiger has been made in the octopus pattern. Apparently a hard edged green and dark yellow King Tiger with dark green "rings" over the dark yellow. Did I get that right?
H_Ackermans
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Posted: Monday, April 02, 2007 - 05:07 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Great review with lots of great historical information helping the builder to produce an accurate vehicle.

Thanks for the time and effort that obviously went into this review.

Now I am at a loss about the Octopus camouflage But I am very interested. Could somebody please fill me in

EDIT: I found a post here at the forum where a King Tiger has been made in the octopus pattern. Apparently a hard edged green and dark yellow King Tiger with dark green "rings" over the dark yellow. Did I get that right?



Thanks for the nice comments!

Yes, that Tiger-B is finished in what has become known as the Octopus-scheme.
H_Ackermans
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Posted: Monday, April 02, 2007 - 05:13 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Some of the photos from D-B illustrate a Panther hull or two in welding jigs, so it's possible to see the bottom of the hulls. Are there any of these photos in color? Are they the greenish-grey color you describe?



The pictures of the Panther hulls in jigs are not from DB, but are from DHHV, which built the hulls from armour plate before shipping these to DB or other factories for final assembly. I don't know of color pics from DHHV, but the pictures I refer to are from the DB line.


Quoted Text

I seem to remember reading somewhere that some Panther hull bottoms were left in a red primer.



That's new to me, but it could've happened.


Quoted Text

On another note, I'd hope that someone would come up with a Panther F interior aftermarket kit, but that's probably unlikely as the C-H Panther F is a limited edition kit and secondly, a lot of the interior details, particularly regarding the Schmalturm, are probably unknown anyway...



The hull interior is identical (-ish...) to that of an Ausf. G. The only difference between the 2 is that the F hull has a thicker and further extended front hull roof, and the sliding hatches. Other that that, they are the same.

The Schmalturm wreck at Bovington, is that completely gutted inside?

In Spielberger's Panther und seine Abarten are pictures of the KwK 44 75mm gun showing the gun trunnions and mounting.
pzcreations
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Posted: Monday, April 02, 2007 - 07:29 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Hmmm... Not good about the track hangers. I have an unbuilt Tamiya Panther. I wonder if I could use something from that...



The kit comes with p/e ones as well. The kit tracks fit it, but the pins wont be able to go on, on the otherhand, using the p/e racks along with some Friul spare links, they fit perfect and the pins will go in as well.
H_Ackermans
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Posted: Monday, April 02, 2007 - 08:20 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Hmmm... Not good about the track hangers. I have an unbuilt Tamiya Panther. I wonder if I could use something from that...



The kit comes with p/e ones as well. The kit tracks fit it, but the pins wont be able to go on, on the otherhand, using the p/e racks along with some Friul spare links, they fit perfect and the pins will go in as well.



Not my experience, I have a set of FM tracks for the Panther-G Smart kit and the Premium late Panther-A, and I couldn't see the bottom hole of the trackhanger when using those links, I tried the link both ways, chevrons up and down.

Might look into that again, there's sure to be some FM links left after these 2 kits are finished.
404NotFound
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Posted: Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 08:47 PM UTC
I have an unused set of Modelkasten late Panther tracks I was thinking of using for this. We'll see if I can work something out and get some spare tracks to fit somehow...

I'll let you all know how it works out, but I'll warn, I'm a very slow model builder...
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