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For discussions on tanks, artillery, jeeps, etc.
I simply love DS-tracks from Dragon
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preusse
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Posted: Thursday, March 21, 2019 - 06:15 AM UTC
Just check your Dragon kit out at ebay. The asian edition all include DS and Magic tracks. I do not know why the do not sell this bonus kits in europe or america. My last new dragon kits i bought this way. Use ebay and tipe Dragon bonus magic tracks. Even with postage this kits are cheaper than buying here.
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M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Thursday, March 21, 2019 - 09:47 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Perhaps Robin's SALIENT POINT is worth noting: It's about Dragon's DS - NOT about whether strip / band / 1-piece tracks are better or worse then are link-sets.

I think it should be of extreme interest to those who prefer and use the 1-piece tracks, as those folks are the ones most impacted by the potential for their kit parts to waste out sooner or later - and disastrously so if on a build.

There are about 3 major versions of track-sets now available on the market in kits and AM: 1-piece flexible "band" or loop tracks, separate link sets (in styrene, resin, metal), and link-and-length (and simply molded lengths, too) sets - generally styrene.

Model companies should take heed of the oft-reported failures of the flexible band tracks. There has been a long history of issues with those things - and the issues are about the CHEMISTRY - not about having 1-piece sets, per se.

1-piece tracks are seen by many as being a money-saving route for companies - likely it IS, IMO. But the chemistry issue serves NO-ONE well.

Maybe companies should consider simply using link-and-length sets in place of the band tracks... There doesn't, least far as I can see, seem to be much benefit to supplying 1-piece bands versus molded styrene link-and-length sets in kits. Both are molded bits and using the styrene L-and-L tracks would simplify kit-packaging and production - it would be just another runner/sprue and no different chemistry or handling involved. And for modelers, it would offer convenience and simplify building and should actually appeal to those not liking the tedious fiddle of links... and L-and-L sets can look very good as moldings. (I think here about a Trumpeter T-64 kit I built with its L-and-L set - tracks came out looking straight and consistent on the build, and detailed, too (important for show modelers, at least!), they went on fast and easy, and there was zero issue with painting and weathering. And, I was able to easily bend-in the correct modest sags seen in those tracks when at rest.)

For those who like to dwell in the old band-versus-link debate: each track-format presumably serves its users and fans - as model-builders - well. Each format provides opportunities and benefits, and suffers limitations and challenges, as well.

But I cannot see how it makes ANY SENSE to use a product which is prone to catastrophic failure due to its CHEMISTRY. I wouldn't use "DS" link sets, if they were "offered", any more than I will use DS band tracks.

Perhaps model companies will take heed of these threads showing that the CHEMISTRY in their products is what is causing the out-cry and rancor seen HERE - NOT the provision of simple 1-piece tracks versus link sets. And the SIMPLE, adaptive change would be for them to simply use molded styrene runs: Eases kit production and packaging, costs no more in material nor in mold-making, and REDUCES POTENTIAL FOR KIT-BUYERS to GET ANGRY about incipient failure of the kit parts! That would be, IMHO, a WIN WIN for both companies and kit-buyers!

Just my OPINION, of course! Bob



Hi, ALL!!!

Yes, Robin made his point about the general LOUSINESS of the the infamous and odious DRAGON "DS Tracks". This thread then sorta/kinda went off on a tangent, in that the responders were offering their thoughts in effecting "practical" cures, i.e REPLACEMENTS of said "DS Tracks". "Practical" being, buying sets of after-market Tracks, which are "Indy-Links". And really, that's IT, because one is only going to find "Link-and-Length Tracks" already included in certain kits... Hm.

As a personal opinion, I much prefer "Link-and-Length", (L&L) Tracks, myself. Lately, the more progressive-thinking TAMIYA has been issuing some pretty nice L&L Tracks.

Another one of my caveats, if you will permit me:

HOWEVER, if one is going to enter a tracked-vehicle model in one of those high-handed, (i.e, "Hitler Salute"), snooty contests or shows, then YOU HAD BETTER HAVE INSTALLED INDY-LINK Tracks on your entry, or else those effete snobs will laugh you to oblivion or perdition, whichever comes first... (See how "politically correct" I am? Tee-hee, ha-ha...)

Having said that, I see Indy-Link Tacks as PROBABLY the best solution when building WWII GERMAN Tracked Vehicles, and certain Russian/Soviet Types. There are also several US tracked vehicle models that will benefit from using "Indy-link" tracks, but! As I understand it, the new TAMIYA 1/35 M551 Sheridan has a VERY NICE set of L&L Tracks, which should satisfy even the most discriminating modeler or stick-in-the-mud contest judge and his/her hanger-on parroting minions.

There is an ever-improving trend in plastic injection-molding processes, i.e, CAD and "Slide-molding", which have really transformed our Hobby. I see a time when we will see L&L Tracks with the "correct sag" coming out of these slide-molds that will rival the Indy-Link Tracks for detail, accuracy, AND put the "Indy-Links" out to pasture because of the L&L Tracks' ease of assembly...

If any of you people are "cross-over modelers" as I am, you will have probably noticed the ASTOUNDING detail that TAMIYA has been able to engineer into four of their very latest 1/48 Aircraft kits- They are: the Grumman F-14A and F-14D kits, their Messerschmitt Bf.109G-6, and their Spitfire Mk.I. For example, the detail is SO GOOD in the Cockpits alone, that many experienced and serious modelers will have second thoughts about replacing the kit=supplied Cockpits with expensive after-market multi-media Cockpits.

My point in going "Off Topic" here, is because it MAY come to pass that this new CAD and Slide-Mold technology will make for SUPERIOR L&L Track sets. Speaking for myself, I HOPE THIS COMES TO FRUITION...

It is ALSO my hope that some of the finer plastic model companies such as MINIART, MENG and TAKOM will follow suit and eventually supply their kits with vastly improved and far easier to assemble L&L track sets. The means to this end are already in their technology loop, i.e, the aforementioned CAD and SLIDE-MOLDING- The question will be if the plastic model companies will go ahead and spend the money for new tooling...

Just for the record, I build all of my WWII German TRACKED Armor with "Indy-link" Tracks. It's slower, yes; but if you want your Panther, Tiger or even your Pz.III to "look right", then "Indy-Links" are your only REAL option. That is, until something better comes along...

And BTW, I'm old enough to have "experienced" the old 1/48 AURORA Tank model kits with their disintegrating and shrinking Tracks- They DIDN'T FIT, either. I remember how frustrating it was to try to get those terrible black Aurora Tracks to even fit over the Sprocket Teeth. And then YOU HAD TO CONNECT THE ENDS.. Uh-Uh... These Tracks would have been enervating to work on for an adult, so you guys can probably imagine what it was like for an eight-year-old... This was circa 1960-'63. I had their 1/48 Panther, Tiger II, M8 Artillery Tractor and their M46... (sigh) Before I forget, I also had their 1/48 8-Inch Howitzer, the Tires of which JUST WOULDN'T slip on over the Wheels... Yeah, so...

I really don't think that the "mainland Asian", (read: Chinese, specifically DRAGON), model-producing companies care whether we, as a group of dedicated, serious modelers, become frustrated with faults in their products. They're in the biz TO TAKE OUR MONEY, and TO HELL with the states of our emotions. The United States ABOUNDS with Mental Health Professionals...

IMO, once again I must say that LINK & LENGTH Tracks PROBABLY offer the best compromise between flexible, one-piece Tracks and "Indy-Links"...

Couldn't WE as a group, at least TRY to put up a "united front" in making ACTUAL contact with DRAGON to rid themselves, (and US) of those detested and dreadful "DS Tracks"..? (Hey! Sarah Bernhardt has NOTHING on me...)

Though I SERIOUSLY DOUBT that DRAGON would listen, as I said above...

Robbd01
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Posted: Thursday, March 21, 2019 - 12:29 PM UTC
So this DS track curse, does it also effect Dragon's 1/72 line also? I only have about 10 or so of their kits in the stash, pretty much all are old and have the magic tracks. My most recent Dragon purchases have been the 1/72 scale.

Cheers


RobinNilsson
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Posted: Thursday, March 21, 2019 - 12:34 PM UTC
If Dragon used the same DS-material and packaged the parts in the same type of plastic bag then there is a definite risk.
The chemistry in the used materials do not care what scale or kit the parts are supposed to be used for.
/ Robin
Robbd01
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Posted: Thursday, March 21, 2019 - 12:42 PM UTC

Quoted Text

If Dragon used the same DS-material and packaged the parts in the same type of plastic bag then there is a definite risk.
The chemistry in the used materials do not care what scale or kit the parts are supposed to be used for.
/ Robin




I had a feeling that was going to be the answer. I guess I have something to do in the man cave this weekend, Pulling tracks out of plastic bags. Thanks

Cheers
JPTRR
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Posted: Thursday, March 21, 2019 - 12:52 PM UTC
Never tried DS tracks. Wondered if the criticism was valid. Robin, this thread has convinced me. Thank you.
Tojo72
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Posted: Thursday, March 21, 2019 - 01:13 PM UTC
Has there been any complaints by anyone about 1/72 that would be interesting,I have not seen any that I recall.
KurtLaughlin
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Posted: Thursday, March 21, 2019 - 01:19 PM UTC

Quoted Text

. . . I started buying dragon kits with the original T72 kit and ended with the T54e1 kit and there will be no more.
I cannot be the only one.



I'm sure you are not, but this sort of spiteful behavior hurts you, not them. If DML issued a kit of a subject I wanted and at a price I liked considering the possible need to replace tracks, detailing, accuracy, and so forth, I would buy it. How does anyone but me suffer from depriving myself?

In fact, the criteria I listed above applies to kits of all brands, not just DML. Doesn't everybody do that, every time? If you don't, isn't that your problem, not theirs?

A blanket policy of never buying another DML kit, regardless of subject, price, or quality is just as pointless and ridiculous as saying you will buy every Tamiya kit from now on, regardless of subject, price, or quality.

KL

RobinNilsson
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Posted: Thursday, March 21, 2019 - 01:56 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Never tried DS tracks. Wondered if the criticism was valid. Robin, this thread has convinced me. Thank you.



There is not a 100% guarantee that they will fail but as long as there is not a 100% guarantee that they will NOT fail I prefer the safe option. I have also heard that DS-tracks can be temperamental when it comes to paints.
Going for hard styrene or white metal also takes care of that issue so I know what I will do.
Time for a meticulous check of the stash to determine which types and quantities of aftermarket tracks that will be needed.
For some there are reasonably cheap styren tracks but for others it will be Friuls ....
The postman will wonder why the h**k the package is so heavy ...
/ Robin
panzerbob01
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Posted: Thursday, March 21, 2019 - 03:20 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

. . . I started buying dragon kits with the original T72 kit and ended with the T54e1 kit and there will be no more.
I cannot be the only one.



I'm sure you are not, but this sort of spiteful behavior hurts you, not them. If DML issued a kit of a subject I wanted and at a price I liked considering the possible need to replace tracks, detailing, accuracy, and so forth, I would buy it. How does anyone but me suffer from depriving myself?

In fact, the criteria I listed above applies to kits of all brands, not just DML. Doesn't everybody do that, every time? If you don't, isn't that your problem, not theirs?

A blanket policy of never buying another DML kit, regardless of subject, price, or quality is just as pointless and ridiculous as saying you will buy every Tamiya kit from now on, regardless of subject, price, or quality.

KL




I don't know about anyone else, but I cannot begin to keep up with all the great kits of REALLY COMPELLING (enticing, attention-grabbing, gotta-get-one, WOW!, I NEED that one) SUBJECTS that already have come out, let alone get more than just a couple of the continuing flood of new great kits... I'm not made of money, my house is already pretty full of stuff (including about 4k kits... ), and there is little chance of my living long enough to build even 1/4 of what I already have, let alone build many new acquisitions.

This effectively translates into: I have limits and I must make choices about what I buy next. I have ZERO problem skipping past ANY new kit that "offers" extra cost, extra headache, extra fuss, in favor of some other new kit(s) which don't. I've never met a subject that I really couldn't live without. That Dragon DAK Pz.III H Befehlspanzer is a really cool and very, very interesting subject (to me, of course!) - I drool when I see pics of it and dream of building it, and I would LOVE to have one... but NO THANKS for any more DS tracks that I would HAVE TO REPLACE at added cost and fuss. I'll go buy that Trumpeter T-72B3M mod 2016 kit instead - another very, very cool and interesting subject that I would LOVE to have one of... it costs near the same, but, "sadly", LACKS that chemical time-bomb, DS tracks.

BOTH kits count as "compelling", to me. But I cannot actually afford to buy every compelling kit out there. So I'll get the one which is less likely to melt down or cost me extra to simply replace a bad kit part. I will gladly spend extra money on a kit - to get EXTRA stuff to take it up a few notches. It's much more satisfying to do that then to replace bad kit parts.

I think I have already reasonably described a route which would serve BOTH kit makers AND kit buyers - using styrene L-and-L sets as the kit parts. It's a potential solution which COULD WORK for all, at probably no real added expense to ANYONE. IF we modelers were to actually collectively get up and send a signal to the makers to make a specific change, I think that they would. Why shouldn't they? It serves NOBODY to continue using the risky DS tracks - not when there actually are good alternatives.

But just my opinion, of course! Now, if nobody minds, I think I'll go "spite myself" and skip that neat Dragon Pz.III w/ DS tracks I want and sulk over and "settle" for that trumpy T-72B3m...

Just maybe, if enough folks actually did this "self-spiting behaviour" - AND "loudly announced it in public (HERE...)" a once-much-loved kit maker would actually get the message.

Cheers!
KurtLaughlin
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Posted: Thursday, March 21, 2019 - 04:57 PM UTC

Quoted Text

That Dragon DAK Pz.III H Befehlspanzer is a really cool and very, very interesting subject (to me, of course!) - I drool when I see pics of it and dream of building it, and I would LOVE to have one... but NO THANKS for any more DS tracks that I would HAVE TO REPLACE at added cost and fuss.



What if you could get it for 20 bucks?

KL
panzerbob01
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Posted: Thursday, March 21, 2019 - 06:11 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

That Dragon DAK Pz.III H Befehlspanzer is a really cool and very, very interesting subject (to me, of course!) - I drool when I see pics of it and dream of building it, and I would LOVE to have one... but NO THANKS for any more DS tracks that I would HAVE TO REPLACE at added cost and fuss.



What if you could get it for 20 bucks?

KL



That's a good and (mostly!) fair question, Kurt.

Obviously, IF I could actually buy a usually $50+ kit for $20, I likely would at least more-strongly consider getting it - because in the end I got that kit for about $50+ - after I bought the obligatory replacement for the DS. And as a normally $50 60+ kit, it would cost pretty close to that alternative "compelling kit" from trumpeter. But that's exactly my point: BOTH the mentioned Pz.III and the T-72B3M are "compelling", and both generally cost near the same - before "fixes". IF I have to pay the "full price" of generally $50+ for each, then the Pz.III simply becomes more costly, as I still need to replace those DS tracks. Both kits are desirable. So my choice between these 2 "compellers" comes down largely to going the less-expensive, less-hassles route while getting something I really want. Getting a normally $50+ kit for $20 can happen (I'm hoping to make such a score come the great AZ model swap meet on Mar 30th... ), and when that happens, the "calculus" changes - IF the total buy-in cost becomes actually more equal, my decision becomes perhaps more difficult !

As we both know, few things are actually completely "black or white"!

Cheers! Bob

PS: We all likely hope for bargains, and occasionally a real one does come along (and confounds whatever neat "calculus" and rationalization one performs when choosing which kit to buy). That lust and pursuit has provided plenty of opportunity for scammers offering kits at "1/2 price" on eBay - sucking hungry modelers in, and leaving them kit-less, fund-less, and frustrated!
PanzerKarl
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Posted: Thursday, March 21, 2019 - 06:15 PM UTC
I have sent Dragon a link to this thread on their Facebook page private message and asked them to read through it,I might be flogging a dead horse but it's worth a try.
M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Thursday, March 21, 2019 - 09:17 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

That Dragon DAK Pz.III H Befehlspanzer is a really cool and very, very interesting subject (to me, of course!) - I drool when I see pics of it and dream of building it, and I would LOVE to have one... but NO THANKS for any more DS tracks that I would HAVE TO REPLACE at added cost and fuss.



What if you could get it for 20 bucks?

KL



AGREE- DRAGON puts up these special sales every so often where one can buy an $80.00 kit for $24.95. (plus Shipping, of course) To catch these things, all that's needed is to subscribe to DRAGON in order to get their weekly fliers. YOU CAN SAVE A LOT OF BUCKS!!! And then, there is ALWAYS Ebay...

Though there may be some faults with DRAGON kits, most of these are fairly easy to overcome. A LOT of their WWII German Tank and AFV kits are really GREAT! You're missing out on some really great plastic if you're boycotting DRAGON kits just because of a lousy set of Tracks...

I feel that there is NO reason why anyone should boycott DRAGON kits solely for the reason that some of them contain those detestable "DS Tracks". Also, in all fairness, I should mention that I have quite a few of the DRAGON 1/35 Sherman kits. These are both assembled and still in their boxes. I have had them for YEARS, and I HAVE NOT experienced any of the problems with their "DS Tracks", which Robin took the time to photograph for this thread. That is NOT to say that my "DS Tracks" will never disintegrate on me...

Many of us, as I've said before, will spend a small fortune on extra after-market PE, resin bits and pieces, and multi-media upgrades. All of this extra stuff can add up to quite a piece of change which often amounts to several times the cost of the kit, itself... So WHAT is the BIG DEAL? If one doesn't like the "DS Tracks", REPLACE THE DARNED THINGS... Belly-aching about "DS Tracks" isn't going to solve the problem. I think that it is very doubtful that DRAGON is going to correct or replace the "DS Tracks" with something better "all across the board". They seem to like "DS Plastic" for some of their other parts, as well...

Now here's an item; DRAGON DID however, announce an M4A3 (75mm) Sherman, "NOW WITH MAGIC TRACKS"- Has it FINALLY dawned on them, or is this a fluke..?

BTW, I'm not too crazy about "Magic Tracks", either- Ejector pin marks (i.e "Knock-outs") to be filled and sanded, general clean-up, blah, blah, blah... Also, the construction of these "Magic Tracks" is tedious and stultifying...
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Posted: Thursday, March 21, 2019 - 10:03 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Has there been any complaints by anyone about 1/72 that would be interesting,I have not seen any that I recall.



There were whole long threads about it on Missing Links a few years ago. But then for a lot of Braille scale builders messed up rubber band tracks are a really old topic going back to Airfix, Nitto and Fujimi kits of the 1970s.

Buy that vintage kit you always wanted and find a fossilized rubber band and little chunks of something that might have once been tracks--

Or a gooey mess that melted all over the parts ruining nearly everything.

Uses to fudge it and cut Tamiya tracks in half---
BunkerBuster
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Posted: Friday, March 22, 2019 - 12:24 AM UTC
For every modeler who hates DS tracks, there likely to be someone who loves them. I would guess for their Americas and European market, they are catering towards the casual modeler with the DS tracks. For their Asian market, I believe most of their kits include the magic tracks (if tooling is available). Just go on eBay and search for their newest releases. You will find almost all include "bonus" magic tracks. Prices are generally much cheaper than buying the domestic USA versions with DS tracks.

As I previously stated, I sell all my DS tracks on eBay and have never had a problem finding a buyer. I've also done trades for magic tracks. I guess some modelers just can't handle the mundane task of building up a set of indy link tracks. I actually find it very relaxing to build up tracks, especially Masterclub or Friul sets.
KurtLaughlin
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Posted: Friday, March 22, 2019 - 12:35 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Quoted Text

That Dragon DAK Pz.III H Befehlspanzer is a really cool and very, very interesting subject (to me, of course!) - I drool when I see pics of it and dream of building it, and I would LOVE to have one... but NO THANKS for any more DS tracks that I would HAVE TO REPLACE at added cost and fuss.



What if you could get it for 20 bucks?

KL



That's a good and (mostly!) fair question, Kurt.

Obviously, IF I could actually buy a usually $50+ kit for $20, I likely would at least more-strongly consider getting it -



It was perfectly fair. The point being that everybody performs (or should) their own calculus as to whether the outlay of money is worth it. I've recently had opportunities (plural) to buy Trumpeter SCUD launchers for $50 - $70 and passed because I'm certain I would get bogged down cleaning up 1000+ parts and the fun would end.

Dogmatic, absolutist, positions are self-defeating and ultimately pointless in this hobby because the guy you are trying to reach neither knows nor cares if you are even alive. Or dead.

KL
KurtLaughlin
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Posted: Friday, March 22, 2019 - 12:49 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I have sent Dragon a link to this thread on their Facebook page private message and asked them to read through it,I might be flogging a dead horse but it's worth a try.



DML's response:

(. . . BLOCK . . . )

KL
Tojo72
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Posted: Friday, March 22, 2019 - 02:07 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

I have sent Dragon a link to this thread on their Facebook page private message and asked them to read through it,I might be flogging a dead horse but it's worth a try.



DML's response:

(. . . BLOCK . . . )

KL



So they didnt just ignore it,they didnt want anything to do eith it ?
gtveloce65
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Posted: Friday, March 22, 2019 - 02:22 AM UTC
Agree with the general sentiment. Dragon kits were great back in the day for new, interesting, and for the day, detailed kits. Stopped buying as soon as DS tracks were introduced. Mind you, the Rye Field tiger is at the other end of the extreme with 5 parts per track link!
CMOT
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Posted: Friday, March 22, 2019 - 04:07 AM UTC
I thought this breaking up of plastic was supposed to take place after 20 plus years in the oceans?
panzerbob01
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Posted: Friday, March 22, 2019 - 04:30 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Agree with the general sentiment. Dragon kits were great back in the day for new, interesting, and for the day, detailed kits. Stopped buying as soon as DS tracks were introduced. Mind you, the Rye Field tiger is at the other end of the extreme with 5 parts per track link!



I'm with you, Clive (and with all who have stepped back from Dragon over the DS track issue). I'm a long-time D fan, have most of the pre-DS kits. GREAT stuff!

My ISSUE, of course, bears clarifying for some on this thread: It's NOT about D going to "band tracks" instead of links, Magic or otherwise. It is about D pushing DS CHEMISTRY - a pretty well DEMONSTRATED "lurking time-bomb" problem for modelers and kit-collectors.

To be sure, I LOVE links, but I'm actually OK with any track FORMAT - I've successfully used bands, L-and-L, and links in builds. And I'll gladly put my money into buying AM stuff, including AM links, to upgrade a build. As a matter of FREE choice.

What apparently do not yet understand, given what they have posted, is that replacing DS tracks out of FEAR that they COULD CATASTROPHICALLY FAIL, due to their CHEMISTRY, is NOT a FREE CHOICE. It is a COERCED choice. And, in my opinion, Dragon's continued use of DS for its tracks is to continue placing me, and others concerned about real potential for DS FAILURE, into a bind. To, in effect, COERCE us to go buy replacements. "You like my subject? Great! I GOT YOU! Here's a nice kit with a bomb in it! Fix it or maybe DIE, fool!"

Maybe people could view this issue with less defensive "excusing" of Dragon if they looked at it from a slightly different, less-emotional, more-objective perspective...

Consider "complete cake mixes in a box". So, you decide you want to bake a box cake. The store offers 2 brands of yellow cake w/ white frosting mixes. Both make equally acceptable-to-you CAKE. Both contain a can of frosting. One brand's frosting is noxious-tasting, while the other's tastes fine TO YOU. Both boxes cost the same. Which one would you buy?

Dragon could actually pretty easily FIX this issue. IF the D does fix it, I'll be back. Because I LIKE D's subjects and D's kits, in most ways. But I don't like to buy stuff I KNOW I'll NEED to get rid of and replace at added cost - whether I want to simply "upgrade", or NOT.

But PLEASE don't tell me that you'll buy the mix with crappy frosting just because it says Dunkin Hines on it!

Bob
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Posted: Friday, March 22, 2019 - 04:46 AM UTC
I have wondered if Dragon changed the formula for the DS tracks along the way? I have kits with DS tracks that I bought in 07,08 and the tracks look okay, no oily residue in the package and some I got in the last couple of years that show signs of deterioration. Its a shame that they dont last, as I do like them.