login   |    register
Armor/AFV: Contests
This group is home to our various contests, promotions and drawings.
Hosted by Darren Baker
Has Axis modelling peaked?
RobinNilsson
Staff MemberTOS Moderator
KITMAKER NETWORK
Visit this Community
Stockholm, Sweden
Joined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 5,001 posts
Armorama: 4,223 posts
Posted: Sunday, May 05, 2019 - 07:31 PM UTC
Judging by the box-art I think it is the "blah"-alternative
There is a News item about it published today ...

Doesn't look like no R 40 suspension to me ...
/ Robin
firstcircle
Visit this Community
England - South East, United Kingdom
Joined: November 19, 2008
KitMaker: 2,161 posts
Armorama: 1,924 posts
Posted: Sunday, May 05, 2019 - 08:07 PM UTC
Not sure why the term "Axis" has been used in this thread - surely really means Nazi Germany, as I don't think the military vehicles of Japan, Italy, Hungary, Rumania, Bulgaria (and what have you) have ever been more popular than any other subjects. Hungarian tanks... I'm only on my sixth of the last 18 months
M4A1Sherman
Visit this Community
New York, United States
Joined: May 02, 2013
KitMaker: 4,020 posts
Armorama: 3,963 posts
Posted: Sunday, May 05, 2019 - 09:02 PM UTC

Quoted Text

I will say the one thing that i personally like about modeling axis armor is that you have multiple variations of camoflauge to paint. It kind of makes for more creativity. With allied armor you donít really see that, itís more of olive drab and thatís it. Sorry just a little side rant. I noticed the comment on WW1 subjects, Iíd like to say that this could maybe be attributed to the fact that video games such as Battlefied 1 have came out and now itís peaked the interest of kids to model that subject. I will say It seems like video games are beginning to influence modeling, looking at all the paper panzers , i feel like this is attributed to games like war thunder and world of tanks. But with these games you also get to play as the unknown allied tanks and even a random Chinese tank or two as well. I think if anything there doesnít seem to be a lot of allied armor built. Like i stated above thereís all these camo patterns but something else to note is the most popular tank to build for the allies is a Sherman. Now thereís multiple variations of the Sherman which anyone who studies and models the subject would have more then that. But the axis had everything from the panzer I to the King Tiger. I know there were other allied tanks such as Cromwell and Churchill but i just donít see those subjects peeking the interest of allied model builders but i could be wrong. I think another thing that the axis builders got going for them is armored trains. Like come on growing up i loved tanks and trains and now i can combine that into a military train. There never really were any allied armored trains, there were Russian and polish ones but thatís another subject.



Here we go, folks- We're getting way from the subject at hand again...

First there is the erroneous belief that the US Army and the US Marine Corps had nothing but the Sherman. Wrooong...

There were the M3/M3A1-series Light Tanks, the M5/M5A1-series Light Tanks, with their sub-types, such as the M8 75mm Howitzer Motor Carriage. Next step, the M3/M3A1-series Medium Tanks and their sub-types, such as the M7 105mm Howitzer Carriage and the M31 ARV, and initially the M10-series Tank Destroyers, which as time passed, made more use of M4-based components. These of course, morphed into the M36 Jackson TD-types. Speaking of TDs, NO mention was made of the early M7 Dodge "Beep" TD, which failed miserably, or of the M18, which was much more successfully employed. M8 and M20 Armored Cars or our M2/M3 Half-Tracks and their derivatives..? Not a single "peep"...

As mentioned previously, there were the Shermans. There was NO MENTION MADE that the M4/M4A1 went on to be continuously developed throughout the United States' involvement during the war. Ultimately, the US Sherman-series Tanks culminated in the M4A3E8 Medium-series Tanks, which made use of a different suspension altogether, i.e, the HVSS-type. ALL models of the Sherman went through various stages in their development- That meant there were literally DOZENS of DIFFERENT Sherman Tanks in their own right, the various British permutations notwithstanding. There were US Early, Mid, and Late Production-types, EACH type having their various and defining differences. These also had different sub-types, such as the -E2 "Jumbo", with either the 75mm or the 76mm Main Guns. The M40 was developed, using M4A3E8 HVSS-type Suspension. Then, there were the ARV-type US Shermans, i.e, the M32B1 and the M32B3.

Late in the war, the M24 Chaffee was meant to replace the M5/M5A1-type Light Tanks, but the earlier Light Tanks STILL soldiered on past VE and VJ-days. NO MENTION was made of the T26/M26 Pershing. Never mind ALL of the different AMERICAN Soft-skins which I AM NOT GOING TO GO INTO, because there is such a HUGE VARIETY to choose from.

You German fans can't see past your Panzers and refuse to admit that Great Britain, France, the then-Soviet Union, Canada, Australia, Italy, Sweden, then-Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Poland, Japan and finally, the United States, ALL produced a veritable MYRIAD of of Tanks, AFVs and Soft-skins throughout World War Two. And guess what? These vehicles were not all painted in TAMIYA XF-62... (sigh)

Now, I'm going to go into a diatribe over the "sameness" of Olive Drab...

There is no such thing as a single shade of Olive Drab, unless the person looking at WWII Olive Drab vehicles is color-blind. "OLIVE DRAB", according to US Ordnance specs, was supposed to be a mixture of "Yellow Ochre" with "Carbon Black" added in order to match "PULLMAN GREEN", which was a "Railroad Passenger Car Color". THIS was anything but a "uniform formula", as different paint manufacturers had different conceptions of what "Olive Drab" was supposed to be. Thus, there was no REAL conformity to "specs", and US Ordnance gave the various paint manufacturers a lot of leeway in this respect...

Given the lousy weathering resistance of ALL paints manufactured since the beginning of time and on into the 21st Century, one can come up with literally HUNDREDS of variations of "Olive Drab", and still be well within the range of "correctness", which is merely an illusion, anyway. Ask ANY ophthalmologist, and they will tell you that the human eye will perceive "color" differently, i.e, the perceptions of "color" vary from person to person...

The negative reference to Olive Drab is erroneous at the very least. There is NO SUCH THING as one shade of Olive Drab and there never was, except in the Mil. Specs. Just look at wartime color photos of individual US vehicles parked side by side. There was no such thing as ONE shade of OD, period. Take it a step further, and fast-forward to today. You'll see ALL kinds of different shades of our "Desert Sand" color and the different variations of colors in the NATO "Tri-color" camouflage as seen on our vehicles today. Park two M1 Abrams tanks next to each other, and you'll see that the colors will be different, even if the two tanks were manufactured within minutes of each other...

Take your TAMIYA XF-62 Olive Drab and lighten it or darken it, or add a little bit of "Panzer Yellow", or a bit of Brown or Green. One can do the same thing with AK Interactive, LIFE COLOR, HUMBROL, VALLEJO, TESTORS Model Master II Enamels and/or Acrylics and any other paint on the face of Planet Earth. And I'm just talking about Olive Drab...

Then you have the "African Campaign" variations of OD, exposed to the harsh effects of intense sunlight. On top of those variations of OD were the "Desert camo" patterns of wavy sprayed, brushed, blotched, or smeared "Sand"-colored paint over the varying shades of OD which were seen and photographed thousands of times. MUD was applied/smeared over OD, JUST LIKE THE GERMANS DID on THEIR vehicles as "improvised camouflage"...

Move into the Mediterranean Theatre, and you have more or less the same thing, BUT! Your "Dust & Mud" will be different colors from what was found in Africa, specifically in Libya and Morocco...

Now take a trip up into Northwestern Europe, i.e France, Holland, Belgium, Alsace-Lorraine and finally, Germany, and you'll AGAIN have the different shades of OD alongside of different shades of mud, dirt and dust. Different shades of Sand, Brown and relatively new patterns of Black which faded into Dark Gray, were either spray-painted or slopped on with anything that was handy over the OD as camouflage. Foliage and camo nets were also employed. On top of that, there were the various "Whitewash camos", which were applied by INDIVIDUAL Vehicle and Tank Crews during the Winter of 1944-'45- These were AS VARIED IN NATURE as ANY WWII German camo could EVER BE...

In the Pacific Theater, you had the interesting effects of weather and salt water on the "basic" OD, which really wasn't "basic" to begin with. PLUS there were the rather "wild" color schemes that the US Army and USMC employed in their various and different campaigns. Stop again, and check out the US NAVY's different shades of Gray for THEIR wheeled and tracked Amphibious Vehicles during WWII...

Just for giggles, pick up a copy of Squadron/Signal Publications' "U.S. ARMOR Camouflage and Markings World War II" by Jim Mesko. This book is an eye-opener if you are of that narrow-minded opinion that US equipment was only painted in TAMIYA XF-62. NOTHING could be further from the truth...

WWII US/Allied equipment is "boring"..? MY A**!!!
Bravo1102
Visit this Community
New Jersey, United States
Joined: December 08, 2003
KitMaker: 2,581 posts
Armorama: 2,249 posts
Posted: Sunday, May 05, 2019 - 09:21 PM UTC
I'm actually going to say that Axis armor has peaked.

If you look at it from sheer numbers, more kits are out of more subjects so the number of German kits as a percentage of the total available kits has decreased

And please don't torture me by saying "axis" as opposed to plain old German post 1943 three color camouflage.

If Axis where's the rush of all new Italian kits? We have a trickle of Hungarian and Japanese out of Asia. There's also no horde of dark grey German vehicles. New Pzkpfw IV from Border and Zvezda and Academy but they're all post 1943 dark yellow variants.

No all new Pzkpfw I, II or III. Just a lonely Zvezda Pzkpfw IV E.

So it's much more accurate to say "has three color camouflage German cats peaked?", rather than tease us unmercifully with the chance of seeing panzer grey let alone Slovak three color, Romanian, Italian or Hungarian green or Japanese multi color.

(Don't accuse me being an Allied only guy, I built six German kitties over the past two years or so)
RobinNilsson
Staff MemberTOS Moderator
KITMAKER NETWORK
Visit this Community
Stockholm, Sweden
Joined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 5,001 posts
Armorama: 4,223 posts
Posted: Sunday, May 05, 2019 - 10:21 PM UTC
"Fifty Shades of OD"
maybe a theme for a model collection ....
GregCopplin
Visit this Community
United States
Joined: September 06, 2011
KitMaker: 114 posts
Armorama: 109 posts
Posted: Sunday, May 05, 2019 - 11:00 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

I will say the one thing that i personally like about modeling axis armor is that you have multiple variations of camoflauge to paint. It kind of makes for more creativity. With allied armor you donít really see that, itís more of olive drab and thatís it. Sorry just a little side rant. I noticed the comment on WW1 subjects, Iíd like to say that this could maybe be attributed to the fact that video games such as Battlefied 1 have came out and now itís peaked the interest of kids to model that subject. I will say It seems like video games are beginning to influence modeling, looking at all the paper panzers , i feel like this is attributed to games like war thunder and world of tanks. But with these games you also get to play as the unknown allied tanks and even a random Chinese tank or two as well. I think if anything there doesnít seem to be a lot of allied armor built. Like i stated above thereís all these camo patterns but something else to note is the most popular tank to build for the allies is a Sherman. Now thereís multiple variations of the Sherman which anyone who studies and models the subject would have more then that. But the axis had everything from the panzer I to the King Tiger. I know there were other allied tanks such as Cromwell and Churchill but i just donít see those subjects peeking the interest of allied model builders but i could be wrong. I think another thing that the axis builders got going for them is armored trains. Like come on growing up i loved tanks and trains and now i can combine that into a military train. There never really were any allied armored trains, there were Russian and polish ones but thatís another subject.



Here we go, folks- We're getting way from the subject at hand again...

First there is the erroneous belief that the US Army and the US Marine Corps had nothing but the Sherman. Wrooong...

There were the M3/M3A1-series Light Tanks, the M5/M5A1-series Light Tanks, with their sub-types, such as the M8 75mm Howitzer Motor Carriage. Next step, the M3/M3A1-series Medium Tanks and their sub-types, such as the M7 105mm Howitzer Carriage and the M31 ARV, and initially the M10-series Tank Destroyers, which as time passed, made more use of M4-based components. These of course, morphed into the M36 Jackson TD-types. Speaking of TDs, NO mention was made of the early M7 Dodge "Beep" TD, which failed miserably, or of the M18, which was much more successfully employed. M8 and M20 Armored Cars or our M2/M3 Half-Tracks and their derivatives..? Not a single "peep"...

As mentioned previously, there were the Shermans. There was NO MENTION MADE that the M4/M4A1 went on to be continuously developed throughout the United States' involvement during the war. Ultimately, the US Sherman-series Tanks culminated in the M4A3E8 Medium-series Tanks, which made use of a different suspension altogether, i.e, the HVSS-type. ALL models of the Sherman went through various stages in their development- That meant there were literally DOZENS of DIFFERENT Sherman Tanks in their own right, the various British permutations notwithstanding. There were US Early, Mid, and Late Production-types, EACH type having their various and defining differences. These also had different sub-types, such as the -E2 "Jumbo", with either the 75mm or the 76mm Main Guns. The M40 was developed, using M4A3E8 HVSS-type Suspension. Then, there were the ARV-type US Shermans, i.e, the M32B1 and the M32B3.

Late in the war, the M24 Chaffee was meant to replace the M5/M5a1-type Light Tanks, but the earlier Light Tanks STILL soldiered on past VE and VJ-days. NO MENTION was made of the T26/M26 Pershing. Never mind ALL of the different AMERICAN Soft-skins which I AM NOT GOING TO GO INTO, because there is such a HUGE VARIETY to choose from.

You German fans can't see past your Panzers and refuse to admit that Great Britain, France, the then-Soviet Union, Canada, Australia, Italy, Sweden, then-Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Poland, Japan and finally, the United States, ALL produced a veritable MYRIAD of of Tanks, AFVs and Soft-skins throughout World War Two. And guess what? These vehicles were not all painted in TAMIYA XF-62... (sigh)

Now, I'm going to go into a diatribe over the "sameness" of Olive Drab...

There is no such thing as a single shade of Olive Drab, unless the person looking at WWII Olive Drab vehicles is color-blind. "OLIVE DRAB", according to US Ordnance specs, was supposed to be a mixture of "Yellow Ochre" with "Carbon Black" added in order to match "PULLMAN GREEN", which was a "Railroad Passenger Car Color". THIS was anything but a "uniform formula", as different paint manufacturers had different conceptions of what "Olive Drab" was supposed to be. Thus, there was no REAL conformity to "specs", and US Ordnance gave the various paint manufacturers a lot of leeway in this respect...

Given the lousy weathering resistance of ALL paints manufactured since the beginning of time and on into the 21st Century, one can come up with literally HUNDREDS of variations of "Olive Drab", and still be well within the range of "correctness", which is merely an illusion, anyway. Ask ANY ophthalmologist, and they will tell you that the human eye will perceive "color" differently, i.e, the perceptions of "color" vary from person to person...

The negative reference to Olive Drab is erroneous at the very least. There is NO SUCH THING as one shade of Olive Drab and there never was, except in the Mil. Specs. Just look at wartime color photos of individual US vehicles parked side by side. There was no such thing as ONE shade of OD, period. Take it a step further, and fast-forward to today. You'll see ALL kinds of different shades of our "Desert Sand" color and the different variations of colors in the NATO "Tri-color" camouflage as seen on our vehicles today. Park two M1 Abrams tanks next to each other, and you'll see that the colors will be different, even if the two tanks were manufactured within minutes of each other...

Take your TAMIYA XF-62 Olive Drab and lighten it or darken it, or add a little bit of "Panzer Yellow", or a bit of Brown or Green. One can do the same thing with AK Interactive, LIFE COLOR, HUMBROL, VALLEJO, TESTORS Model Master II Enamels and/or Acrylics and any other paint on the face of Planet Earth. And I'm just talking about Olive Drab...

Then you have the "African Campaign" variations of OD, exposed to the harsh effects of intense sunlight. On top of those variations of OD were the "Desert camo" patterns of wavy sprayed, brushed, blotched, or smeared "Sand"-colored paint over the varying shades of OD which were seen and photographed thousands of times. MUD was applied/smeared over OD, JUST LIKE THE GERMANS DID on THEIR vehicles as "improvised camouflage"...

Move into the Mediterranean Theatre, and you have more or less the same thing, BUT! Your "Dust & Mud" will be different colors from what was found in Africa, specifically in Libya and Morocco...

Now take a trip up into Northwestern Europe, i.e France, Holland, Belgium, Alsace-Lorraine and finally, Germany, and you'll AGAIN have the different shades of OD alongside of different shades of mud, dirt and dust. Different shades of Sand, Brown and relatively new patterns of Black which faded into Dark Gray, were either spray-painted or slopped on with anything that was handy over the OD as camouflage. Foliage and camo nets were also employed. On top of that, there were the various "Whitewash camos", which were applied by INDIVIDUAL Vehicle and Tank Crews during the Winter of 1944-'45- These were AS VARIED IN NATURE as ANY WWII German camo could EVER BE...

In the Pacific Theater, you had the interesting effects of weather and salt water on the "basic" OD, which really wasn't "basic" to begin with. PLUS there were the rather "wild" color schemes that the US Army and USMC employed in their various and different campaigns. Stop again, and check out the US NAVY's different shades of Gray for THEIR wheeled and tracked Amphibious Vehicles during WWII...

Just for giggles, pick up a copy of Squadron/Signal Publications' "U.S. ARMOR Camouflage and Markings World War II" by Jim Mesko. This book is an eye-opener if you are of that narrow-minded opinion that US equipment was only painted in TAMIYA XF-62. NOTHING could be further from the truth...

WWII US/Allied equipment is "boring"..? MY A**!!!



Yes the US military and Marines had other vehicles such as stated above but are those as popular as German vehicles? We see a lot of variations of Panthers and Tigers and it seems that we get one to two kits of Stuartís in early mid and late war versions. DML did an excellent job coming out with an M3 series halftrack as well as an M2. Of only they came out with the exported M5 version (may be mistaken). Regardless back onto the subject i think Bravo1102 was right, i think the case can be made that the three color camo German vehicles have peaked even with the paper panzers.
Bringing it back to axis vehicles i agree, why hasnít more been done to include the minor axis powers such as Romania, Slovakia and Albania. Granted some of these countries were given German equipment to use itís still be fun to model some of there designs. Finland is another fun subject but a lot of there equipment is captured. I havenít personally modeled any Japanese equipment but it seems like that is a subject that is slowly gaining some popularity.
M4A1Sherman
Visit this Community
New York, United States
Joined: May 02, 2013
KitMaker: 4,020 posts
Armorama: 3,963 posts
Posted: Sunday, May 05, 2019 - 11:02 PM UTC

Quoted Text

I'm actually going to say that Axis armor has peaked.

If you look at it from sheer numbers, more kits are out of more subjects so the number of German kits as a percentage of the total available kits has decreased

And please don't torture me by saying "axis" as opposed to plain old German post 1943 three color camouflage.

If Axis where's the rush of all new Italian kits? We have a trickle of Hungarian and Japanese out of Asia. There's also no horde of dark grey German vehicles. New Pzkpfw IV from Border and Zvezda and Academy but they're all post 1943 dark yellow variants.

No all new Pzkpfw I, II or III. Just a lonely Zvezda Pzkpfw IV E.

So it's much more accurate to say "has three color camouflage German cats peaked?", rather than tease us unmercifully with the chance of seeing panzer grey let alone Slovak three color, Romanian, Italian or Hungarian green or Japanese multi color.

(Don't accuse me being an Allied only guy, I built six German kitties over the past two years or so)



Hi, Steve!

AGREE...

ALL German MILITARY vehicles came in Dark Gray from their respective factories until February, 1943. So what about all of those earlier pre-February 1943-types, some of which were manufactured in 1934 and '35..? No. CAN'T/WON'T have ANY of that... You "Tri-color" guys only see your Panthers and Tigers I & II in "Tri-color" camo with the occasional Tiger I in a couple of different "AFRIKA" color schemes. ALL of the major manufacturers produce at least half-dozen supposedly "different" Tigers I & IIs, with or without Interiors EACH, plus their various types of Panthers, Bergepanthers and Jagdpanthers, again, WITH or WITHOUT Interiors, depending on the type. Even when one or two of you "Axis-guys" goes against the grain and builds a WWII Japanese Tank, you'll STILL slavishly follow the erroneous painting instructions and paint the darn thing in GERMAN "Tri-color" paints!!! YOU'RE wallowing neck-deep in "Tri-color" and disavowing the possibilities of anything else. YOU'RE the ones who are "color-blind"...

If YOU MUST BUILD WWII German, there were some "interesting" examples of Dark Gray German vehicles with "improvised" camo out there, but you won't see your way past "tri-color". You know what? I think the European modelers have gotten themselves out of that rut and they're moving on. Mosonmagyarovar shows there is a new "trend" coming, and you "Panther/Tiger Clique" guys are missing the boat...

PS- I'm proud to say that I haven't built a "Kitty" since 2004, and I don't plan on buying a "new" one, either...

On the other hand, BRAND NEW Pz.Is, Pz.IIs, Pz.IIIs, EARLY Pz.IVs, AND Pz.38(t)s would be very welcome, indeed... Some Civilian 1/35 cars such as BMWs, Auto Unions, Tatras, Mercedes-types previously not released, Skodas, AND TRUCKS, such as the various VOMAGS, Einheits Diesels, Krupps, MANs, Phaenomen-Granits, Skodas, Steyrs and Tatras, Daimler-Benzes, and the list goes on an on, would be nice. There were A LOT more of these vehicles built than there EVER were of your "vaunted" Bergepanthers...

And "Paper-panzers"..? PLEASE!!! Gimme a BREAK!!!
M4A1Sherman
Visit this Community
New York, United States
Joined: May 02, 2013
KitMaker: 4,020 posts
Armorama: 3,963 posts
Posted: Sunday, May 05, 2019 - 11:58 PM UTC

Quoted Text

"Fifty Shades of OD"
maybe a theme for a model collection ....



Hi, Robin!

I know you're joking about the "Fifty Shades of OD", and maybe a theme for a model collection but in truth, it's a VIABLE option for a US/Allied fan. Seriously... One can build FIFTY different US-made WWII vehicles in LITERALLY FIFTY DIFFERENT Shades of OD, and STILL be entirely "correct", precisely for the reasons which I stated in one of my previous posts... I can say this truthfully, because that IS the case in my own personal collection of 1/35 US WWII tanks, AFVs and Soft-skins. The same holds true in my collection of 1/48 WWII USAAF Fighters, Bombers, Attack, Recon and Liaison Aircraft sporting OD over Medium Gray- No two are painted in the same shades of each color. I NEVER use any paint "straight out of the bottle" without altering the color, even if it happens to be by only adding a drop or two of a different color into my mix... And that doesn't just apply to my 1/35 stuff or my 1/48 aircraft- You should see my HO Steam collection!!!
RobinNilsson
Staff MemberTOS Moderator
KITMAKER NETWORK
Visit this Community
Stockholm, Sweden
Joined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 5,001 posts
Armorama: 4,223 posts
Posted: Monday, May 06, 2019 - 12:31 AM UTC
Hi Dennis,
It was partly a joke and partly serious
/ Robin
M4A1Sherman
Visit this Community
New York, United States
Joined: May 02, 2013
KitMaker: 4,020 posts
Armorama: 3,963 posts
Posted: Monday, May 06, 2019 - 12:44 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Hi Dennis,
It was partly a joke and partly serious
/ Robin



Yes, I realized that right from the start, which is why I commented on what you said. It's TRUE, though...

At LEAST, FIFTY SHADES of Olive Drab...
PanzerKarl
Visit this Community
England - North West, United Kingdom
Joined: April 20, 2004
KitMaker: 2,309 posts
Armorama: 1,858 posts
Posted: Monday, May 06, 2019 - 01:33 AM UTC
One paint colour I have not had in my box for many a year is Olive Drab and I plan to stay that way.
M4A1Sherman
Visit this Community
New York, United States
Joined: May 02, 2013
KitMaker: 4,020 posts
Armorama: 3,963 posts
Posted: Monday, May 06, 2019 - 01:37 AM UTC

Quoted Text

One paint colour I have not had in my box for many a year is Olive Drab and I plan to stay that way.



Well, GOOD FOR YOU!!!

I guess there really IS a reason for you to call yourself "Panzer Karl", isn't there...
Byrden
Visit this Community
Wien, Austria
Joined: July 12, 2005
KitMaker: 2,157 posts
Armorama: 2,145 posts
Posted: Monday, May 06, 2019 - 02:12 AM UTC

Quoted Text


ALL German MILITARY vehicles came in Dark Gray from their respective factories until February, 1943.



Actually, by February 1943 there were about 150 Tigers in existence and most of them were painted 2-tone "tropical" when issued. I count only 25 grey ones.

http://tiger1.info/EN/Grey-Tigers.html

David
PanzerKarl
Visit this Community
England - North West, United Kingdom
Joined: April 20, 2004
KitMaker: 2,309 posts
Armorama: 1,858 posts
Posted: Monday, May 06, 2019 - 02:32 AM UTC
M4A1Sherman
Touche
Bravo1102
Visit this Community
New Jersey, United States
Joined: December 08, 2003
KitMaker: 2,581 posts
Armorama: 2,249 posts
Posted: Monday, May 06, 2019 - 03:30 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


ALL German MILITARY vehicles came in Dark Gray from their respective factories until February, 1943.



Actually, by February 1943 there were about 150 Tigers in existence and most of them were painted 2-tone "tropical" when issued. I count only 25 grey ones.

http://tiger1.info/EN/Grey-Tigers.html

David


The same with vehicles specifically earmarked for service in tropical areas like North Africa and Southern Russia.

Now that I'm building Sherman's again I ask myself "why did I do German cats again?"

That's right, to see what the big deal was. For me there wasn't any. Especially tri color camouflage. I prefer monotone dark yellow or single color only like green or brown only. The same way I like the Blitzkrieg two tone grey/brown.

Besides just doing what everyone else is doing is boring. I'm driven by a restless creativity. In fact I just sold the classic zimmerit Panther G in three color scheme. To me it was "meh". Everybody does that. To make it different I put a Luftwaffe Hermann Goering division crew in it because to do something imaginative with it.

But I traded my two remaining Panther kits and Tiger II for three more Pzkpfw IV. I like them more.
M4A1Sherman
Visit this Community
New York, United States
Joined: May 02, 2013
KitMaker: 4,020 posts
Armorama: 3,963 posts
Posted: Monday, May 06, 2019 - 06:42 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


ALL German MILITARY vehicles came in Dark Gray from their respective factories until February, 1943.



Actually, by February 1943 there were about 150 Tigers in existence and most of them were painted 2-tone "tropical" when issued. I count only 25 grey ones.

http://tiger1.info/EN/Grey-Tigers.html

David



But everything ELSE was still coming out of German factories in Dunkelgrau until the colors were officially switched in February, 1943. The last I checked, February has 28 days or 29 days in Leap-Year. A LOT can happen in 28 or 29 days, isn't that true..?

And you didn't read one of my posts where I said that a few Tiger Is were the exceptions when we were discussing "Tri-color" German camo- What I said, in so many words, if you will be so kind as to read my post once again, was that the only exceptions that the "TRI-COLOR" FANATICS on this site who aren't building anything but "Tri-color" Tigers I & II and Panthers, are the few Tiger Is which THEY WILL BUILD IN "AFRIKA" CAMO, did I not?

Didn't the remaining Dark Gray Tigers go to Russia? I am ASKING this as a bona-fide question, and I AM NOT trying to be a "wise-guy"...

In any case David, YOU are the Tiger Expert, not I. I CERTAINLY would not have known how MANY Tiger Is (Trop.) were shipped to Africa in the two color "AFRIKA" scheme, and how many Tiger Is remained in Dunkelgrau... Mr. Bryden, take it any way you like, but I AM TRYING TO PAY YOU A COMPLIMENT, as regards to your vast knowledge of the Tiger Tank... If I should EVER have a question regarding a Tiger Tank, I will certainly try to contact YOU, via ARMORA/KIT MAKER...

One of the Pz.Kpfw.IVs which my Mom's Onkel Ludwig served in WAS repainted in a "sort of" (his words were "Scheiss-gelb"), mixture of Dunkelgelb in Spring, 1943, once his unit finally received their aforementioned paint and supplies.

Sorry, Onkel Ludwig and I never got to have a discussion about which of the various "Ausfuehrungen" of Pz.IVs he actually served in. I was still in High School at the time, and attending school, while he only stayed with us for a little bit over a week, as I remember... We ARE talking about 1970. It's a good thing that I managed to write a lot of stuff down which he told me. Pity that I didn't have my reel-to-reel tape recorder until Christmas, 1971... He was a wonderful man, Onkel Ludwig; always laughing and joking. It was a great loss for us when he passed in 1973...
M4A1Sherman
Visit this Community
New York, United States
Joined: May 02, 2013
KitMaker: 4,020 posts
Armorama: 3,963 posts
Posted: Monday, May 06, 2019 - 06:45 AM UTC

Quoted Text

M4A1Sherman
Touche



To you, I raise my Sword in SALUTE!!!
M4A1Sherman
Visit this Community
New York, United States
Joined: May 02, 2013
KitMaker: 4,020 posts
Armorama: 3,963 posts
Posted: Monday, May 06, 2019 - 07:33 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Quoted Text


ALL German MILITARY vehicles came in Dark Gray from their respective factories until February, 1943.



Actually, by February 1943 there were about 150 Tigers in existence and most of them were painted 2-tone "tropical" when issued. I count only 25 grey ones.

http://tiger1.info/EN/Grey-Tigers.html

David


The same with vehicles specifically earmarked for service in tropical areas like North Africa and Southern Russia.

Now that I'm building Sherman's again I ask myself "why did I do German cats again?"

That's right, to see what the big deal was. For me there wasn't any. Especially tri color camouflage. I prefer monotone dark yellow or single color only like green or brown only. The same way I like the Blitzkrieg two tone grey/brown.

Besides just doing what everyone else is doing is boring. I'm driven by a restless creativity. In fact I just sold the classic zimmerit Panther G in three color scheme. To me it was "meh". Everybody does that. To make it different I put a Luftwaffe Hermann Goering division crew in it because to do something imaginative with it.

But I traded my two remaining Panther kits and Tiger II for three more Pzkpfw IV. I like them more.



Hi, Steve!

Ahhh... "Pre-War and Blitzkrieg" two-tone Dunkelgrau & Braun- That's how I built my BRONCO 1/35 PzKpfw.III Ausf.A- That's one of my favorite Pz.III-types:

FIVE pairs of Roadwheels per side, "Dust-bin" Commander's Cupola... Not ONE single iota of Dunkelgelb, Schockoladen Braun or Olivgruen on that WHOLE vehicle... Wonderful little kit, I might add...

(Yes, it DID get the TIGER MODELS "Corrections" set...)

I prefer Pz.IVs to Tigers and Panthers too, but my all-time FAVORITE WWII GERMAN tanks are the smaller ones, not neccesarily in this order:

Pz.I Ausf. A AND B, in the "conventional" Turret-types and in their respective "Funk" configurations

Pz.II, ALL types

Pz.III, ALL types, with the Ausf.N 75mm type being dead-last

If I had to choose between Pz.IIIs, I'd probably start with the Ausf.A, then the Ausf.E 37mm-type, the Ausf. H(?) Command/Observation(?)-type with the "Dummy" wooden Gun, the Ausf.J and the Ausf.L "Trop"...

I never really got into StuGs, but those would have to be the StuG.III-types, ALL versions... I still have a couple of those that I didn't sell off...
panzerbob01
Visit this Community
Louisiana, United States
Joined: March 06, 2010
KitMaker: 2,901 posts
Armorama: 2,732 posts
Posted: Monday, May 06, 2019 - 01:34 PM UTC
I see that there remains considerable interest in this thread, even if much of the interest is somewhat-to-very tangential to the OP's question!

What does the original stated question - "Has Axis Modelling Peaked" - actually mean? frankly, I don't actually KNOW. I have some opinions - and I'm sure others do too. But if nobody actually KNOWS what the "question" really is, how can anyone ANSWER it? Let's consider some possibilities concerning WHAT may have "peaked"...

It could mean any of the following - and some other things, too:

1) "Modeler INTEREST in building "Axis" stuff".
2) "Model buyer interest in buying "Axis" stuff".
3) "Model kit/AM stuff maker interest in making "Axis" stuff"
4) "Model show contestants' interest in showing "Axis" stuff".
5) "Modeler interest in participating in "Axis stuff" threads".
6) "Model stuff vendor interest in handling "Axis" stuff".

I'll stop with these 6 possibles. Each of these could potentially yield some sort of quantification. Some of the quantification would be more direct, others less so and more tenuous. And it's ONLY QUANTIFICATION - measurement - which might allow us to actually assess and maybe answer the posted question.

#1: How could one assess "interest in building"? Well... One could ASK modelers whether they are losing, maintaining, or gaining interest in BUILDING AXIS kits. A few folks posting here have alluded to their interest. But this one is hard to directly measure, short of polling modelers. And gee, talk about subjective and full of "statistical vagueness"!!

#2: Interest in buying Axis. This can also be assessed by finding out what SELLS. Are Axis kit sales falling or increasing? Poll buyers? vendors? Good answers IF you could get it, but pretty hard to get.

#3: Kit Maker interest in doing Axis. This one is actually pretty telling...! Model companies make what they think will SELL. All sorts of new Axis kits keep coming out - says pretty clearly that MAKERS still think Axis will SELL. Just count the new Axis kits out in the past year. IF it's near zero, Axis may be fading in interest... Otherwise, folks are putting MONEY on the interest being there!

#4: Numbers of Axis kits in shows. This directly measures show - contestant interest in doing and showing Axis. There's still LOTS of Axis stuff in model shows. When the Axis numbers drop is when you can start to legitimately posit that show entrant Axis interest is dropping. 'Til then...

#5: Participation in "Axis subject threads" (includes posting Axis builds on model sites). This is a pretty good measure of modeler INTEREST in Axis subjects. When folks stop participating in Axis stuff threads and stop posting on their Axis builds on model sites, one might reasonably suspect a dwindling interest in Axis modeling. 'Til then...

#6: Vendor interest in handling Axis. Look on eBay. Look in your LHS if you have one. Look on e-sites. Anyone see any falling-off in Axis kits and stuff being offered? Not I. Vendors handle what they think sells. Loads of Axis stuff - more then ever, IMHO, on eBay. My few LHS (OK,within 250 miles counts as "local" for me ) constantly bring in Axis stuff. Perhaps over 50% of kits on the shelves. And these LHS are stocking what they are SELLING. They can't afford to do otherwise.

Points 1 - 6 are possible ways to get at the original "question". You'll note that I mentioned NOTHING about "percentages". Changes in the percentage of all kits sold, for example, which are Axis really tells you nothing about whether interest in Axis stuff has peaked or not. Last year this time, eBay listed about 65000 items in "1/35 armor". This year; 79600 items. If the Axis percentage of those items remained the SAME, the COUNT of Axis items INCREASED by about 22%! That certainly says vendors think "interest in BUYING Axis" is NOT shrinking! Now, had the eBay total dropped since last year, AND the Axis % dropped as well... You probably could reasonably posit that interest in Axis had dropped. Same sort of "calcs" applies to thinking about kits at model shows - maybe the % of kits being Axis has dropped - but the finite numbers remain the same or have increased. The question, folks, is NOT a simple one to really answer!

Likewise, you'll note that I carefully avoid comparing Axis "data" or "trends" to other genre in modeling. That's because you MUST start out with assessing how the total model community (or even just the total Armor modeling community) is changing in order to do any comparisons within that community. AND also needs to look at overall trends in what is available for modelers to buy. These two huge factors simply further complicate your assessment of whether AXIS modelers are dwindling, staying the same, or increasing. Because you don't KNOW the answer to "How many Axis modelers were there last year, and how many are there this year", you can only "distantly" assess interest in Axis modeling by looking at what and how much folks buy and build and talk about...

If one looks at any or all of these somewhat-to-very quantifiable aspects of "modeler interest in doing Axis", the answers hardly seem to me to point at any decline in such interest, let alone a "peak".

I'll "buy" a "peak" in Axis modeling when we see that kit makers have stopped making new Axis stuff, vendors slow down or stop stocking Axis stuff, builders no longer get on sites and talk "Axis", and builders no longer enter Axis stuff in shows. 'Til then...!

Bob
knewton
Visit this Community
New Zealand
Joined: June 19, 2013
KitMaker: 953 posts
Armorama: 865 posts
Posted: Monday, May 06, 2019 - 02:27 PM UTC
The question was posed based on anecdotal evidence, counting the number of World War Two German vehicles or scenes of same at a model show, representing a random sample, and comparing that to previous years entries. And from what I have seen, and read here, too, it is that other areas of interest have increased / expanded at a greater rate than WWII German has. And Iíd put this down to the hobby / industry as a whole in rude good health, and that the population of model builders, with or without disposable income has increased. Therefore, more people buying allows for a greater range of subjects coming available as niche becomes increasingly mainstream. Which is a good sign, whether youíre an Allied only modeller, an Axis Modeller, or other, because it means that that kit you ďneedĒ is more likely to be kitted now than ever before.



Iím surprised at the passion with which some hold this hobby, and how it quickly both became academic and wandered off of topic.

panzerbob01
Visit this Community
Louisiana, United States
Joined: March 06, 2010
KitMaker: 2,901 posts
Armorama: 2,732 posts
Posted: Monday, May 06, 2019 - 07:57 PM UTC
Just a numerical "teaser"...

A sample of 10 random pages on eBay in "1/35 armor" - 50 items per page, including kits, kit parts, PE and other AM bits, decal sets, books...

"Axis" (WWII German, Hungarian, Italian, Romanian, Japanese, marked "beute" stuff) items were 161 out of 500 total posted. That's 32.2% (just a little short of 1/3) of all items on those random 10 pages.

Doesn't say that the Axis "percentage" is changing, but it does show that eBay vendors are pushing a LOT of "Axis" 1/35 scale stuff!

The other 67.8% is everything else - pre- and post-WWII stuff, Allied WWII stuff, Sci-Fi, other nations stuff, civilian stuff, buildings and scenery, generic scale bits (wheels, tools, boxes and other things not labeled as being specifically of any nation or any specific vehicle type), modeling supplies and goods not specific to Axis vehicles, etc.

Needless to say, "Axis" seems pretty popular, based on what is being sold on eBay right NOW!

Bob
Bravo1102
Visit this Community
New Jersey, United States
Joined: December 08, 2003
KitMaker: 2,581 posts
Armorama: 2,249 posts
Posted: Monday, May 06, 2019 - 08:40 PM UTC
And you're proving my point.

I posit that at one time Axis modeling was more than one third of the hobby, or that it has never been more than one third of the hobby. That would mean that it has reached its peak as a base percentage of the hobby.

I'm going with Axis building as part of a whole, not as part of a growing number. That's an empty boast like someone claiming they've won the most votes in an election ever and not mentioning that it's really because there are more people voting than ever before.

Sure the actual numbers grow every year because the economy grows, or the number of people accessing Ebay grows, the population grows and so on. But how many are building or interested in Axis?

If you look at the total mass of kits released had the number of Axis subjects as a proportion of the whole increased, decreased or remained constant? If it has remained constant it could be said to have "peaked"

In other words, it's not going higher if only because so many other things are crowding the field.

People are as passionate about Axis as ever, just look at this thread or the one about grey Tiger I's. It goes round and round because of the interest. Yet as the same time it is staying the same as a proportion of the whole of modeling and even getting crowded out of the limelight by all these other releases.

To summarize: If a number remains the same as a proportion of a whole, even if the whole has increased, it can be said to have "peaked"

I'm just delineating my reasoning in saying it has "peaked" based on some 30 years of unscientific observation. Interest in Axis has always hovered at about one third of the whole. For a while there in armor it surged up to half or more. So it can be said to have peaked. This is only my observation based on my unscientific sampling of the media and noting trends in what gets built and what is available.

So of course I could be completely wrong, but I figured I should make an effort to explain why I said it had peaked.
Bravo1102
Visit this Community
New Jersey, United States
Joined: December 08, 2003
KitMaker: 2,581 posts
Armorama: 2,249 posts
Posted: Tuesday, May 07, 2019 - 12:13 AM UTC
A note: about forty years ago someone went through a few catalogs and counted military kits including aircraft and estimated the percentage of Axis versus Allied and modern. Axis was 40%. If it's only one third now, that would mean it did peak then and has plateaued now.

But that was totally different world. At one point in armor specific showed a 60/45/15 cut of Axis/Allied/post war.

By the way this included all scales. Once upon a time there were hordes of Axis kits in 1/76,1/72, 1/48 versus the run away dominance of 1/35 today.
M4A1Sherman
Visit this Community
New York, United States
Joined: May 02, 2013
KitMaker: 4,020 posts
Armorama: 3,963 posts
Posted: Tuesday, May 07, 2019 - 12:38 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Just a numerical "teaser"...

A sample of 10 random pages on eBay in "1/35 armor" - 50 items per page, including kits, kit parts, PE and other AM bits, decal sets, books...

"Axis" (WWII German, Hungarian, Italian, Romanian, Japanese, marked "beute" stuff) items were 161 out of 500 total posted. That's 32.2% (just a little short of 1/3) of all items on those random 10 pages.

Doesn't say that the Axis "percentage" is changing, but it does show that eBay vendors are pushing a LOT of "Axis" 1/35 scale stuff!

The other 67.8% is everything else - pre- and post-WWII stuff, Allied WWII stuff, Sci-Fi, other nations stuff, civilian stuff, buildings and scenery, generic scale bits (wheels, tools, boxes and other things not labeled as being specifically of any nation or any specific vehicle type), modeling supplies and goods not specific to Axis vehicles, etc.

Needless to say, "Axis" seems pretty popular, based on what is being sold on eBay right NOW!

Bob



32.2% is "Axis"... 67.8% is "everything else"... Is it REEEALLY that important? Wow...

panzerbob01
Visit this Community
Louisiana, United States
Joined: March 06, 2010
KitMaker: 2,901 posts
Armorama: 2,732 posts
Posted: Tuesday, May 07, 2019 - 05:32 AM UTC
Stephen W.:

[quote]I'm just delineating my reasoning in saying it has "peaked" based on some 30 years of unscientific observation. Interest in Axis has always hovered at about one third of the whole. For a while there in armor it surged up to half or more. So it can be said to have peaked. This is only my observation based on my unscientific sampling of the media and noting trends in what gets built and what is available.

So of course I could be completely wrong, but I figured I should make an effort to explain why I said it had peaked. [quote]

By what you have said and your reasoning... "Axis" "peaked" perhaps 30 years ago!

And, as measured by proportionality, if "Axis" has "hovered around 1/3" for the past 30 years, it would definitely be fair to claim that it has peaked - as a proportion of armor modelers. Maybe 30 years ago! And I don't disagree... As long as your metric and mine are the same...

That's the point behind my rambles about this tempest-in-tea-pot. The passion evidenced for the discussion and OP' claim comes not from dispute about the underlying "data", but from how each of us interprets the claim from our own generally UN-DISCLOSED perspective! As long as one doesn't mention or define WHAT the measurement or metric(s) being used are, one can always fervently argue the bigger question in "full dudgeon". And, in reality, no one can say "yay" or "nay" from anything other then the same undefined, "no meat" perspective. Which is about as empty a discussion as almost every political issue is.

Personally, I don't much care about whether "Axis" interest may have "peaked", in the undefined sense. The facts are that "German sells". In huge and even growing amounts. "Axis" remains very popular among armor modelers. IF I were considering putting MONEY on this tempest as in doing business in it... The measure of how much and what is selling would be important to me. Proportion, while academically interesting (and I was an "academic" for a career!), is much less informative to that quest.

Maybe the really exciting point from all of this is that, contrary to the posted concerns of many modelers over the years, it should be evident to all that our hobby is not only going strong, but growing! MORE stuff is being made, sold, bought, and (I'll gladly bet) being BUILT, by MORE PEOPLE, then ever before!

With that, I think I'll go rifle through my several WIP projects (7 Axis, 2 modern Russian, 1 older Russian, 2 older French, 1 older US, 1 modern US, 1 UK) and pick the next couple for rapid completion before the coming IPMS Nats!

Bob