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Has Axis modelling peaked?
panzerbob01
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Posted: Tuesday, May 07, 2019 - 05:49 AM UTC
Dennis S.;

[quote]32.2% is "Axis"... 67.8% is "everything else"... Is it REEEALLY that important? Wow...[quote]

No, Dennis, NOT important (to me) at all! But this IS INTERESTING - to ME! And perhaps to some others. Evidently, signalling your disdain for what I posted IS IMPORTANT, to YOU!

I am amused to see you say what you did, given how much energy and time YOU have previously put into this discussion!

Usually, I figure that those who post a lot in a thread are either stating that they think the discussion and subject are "important", or that they find it "interesting". The discussion and subject is EXTREMELY INTERESTING, but decidedly NOT important, to me. How about to YOU?

Cheers! Bob
Bravo1102
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Posted: Tuesday, May 07, 2019 - 06:07 AM UTC
You realize we could solve this by going on Scalemates and counting the numbers of Axis versus Allied kits.

Then break it down by issue date of the kits to determine the ratio of Allied to Axis at different points of time.

I mean Tamiya, Nichimo, Bandai numbers from 1977 or so...

I have a 1978 Japanese catalog but the numbers there are skewed by the number of Japanese subjects. Every company made a Yamato and Zero. I could just do the armor kits and See what I come up with.

You know all six kits on my bench are US. No less than 4 Sherman ( all with HVSS too), an M48A5 and an M1A2.
panzerbob01
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Posted: Tuesday, May 07, 2019 - 08:39 AM UTC

Quoted Text

You realize we could solve this by going on Scalemates and counting the numbers of Axis versus Allied kits.

Then break it down by issue date of the kits to determine the ratio of Allied to Axis at different points of time.

I mean Tamiya, Nichimo, Bandai numbers from 1977 or so...

I have a 1978 Japanese catalog but the numbers there are skewed by the number of Japanese subjects. Every company made a Yamato and Zero. I could just do the armor kits and See what I come up with.

You know all six kits on my bench are US. No less than 4 Sherman ( all with HVSS too), an M48A5 and an M1A2.



Bravo, Stephen! YES! DO IT! Puh-Leeeeese!:D

NOBODY has likely ever done that search and data-collection. Speaking momentarily as the technical-minded data-analyst that I was for decades; that would be just SUPER COOL and VERY INTERESTING! And that would certainly be one of the "right" ways to actually partially "technically" assess the original question!

But I'm sure that Dennis would roll his eyes and ask whether it was really THAT important! And I would, alas, probably find myself repeating my previous response to him on that question!

The fact that some folks do perceive some whiff of changing interest in a major sector of our hobby IS of tremendous interest to some of us - myself included. Whether that perception has much reality or not is certainly of interest to some of us. That we modelers actually THINK and WONDER and are WILLING to TALK about bigger, vaguer, harder-to-actually-assess, subtler dynamic aspects of our hobby is, I think, one of the very special things that make this hobby so great. That we can do all this, and actually build stuff too, speaks very loudly and positively for the hobby and the folks in it! MUCH more interesting to me to see that folks are interested in more than their proximal kits than to see nobody here felt anything or bothered to express their feelings and thoughts. THAT would be intensely boring!

Tell me if you DO assemble some data. I would be more than happy to look at it and help you actually analyze what you see!

Bob
ALBOWIE
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Posted: Tuesday, May 07, 2019 - 09:24 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I will say the one thing that i personally like about modeling axis armor is that you have multiple variations of camoflauge to paint. It kind of makes for more creativity. With allied armor you don’t really see that, it’s more of olive drab and that’s it. Sorry just a little side rant. I noticed the comment on WW1 subjects, I’d like to say that this could maybe be attributed to the fact that video games such as Battlefied 1 have came out and now it’s peaked the interest of kids to model that subject. I will say It seems like video games are beginning to influence modeling, looking at all the paper panzers , i feel like this is attributed to games like war thunder and world of tanks. But with these games you also get to play as the unknown allied tanks and even a random Chinese tank or two as well. I think if anything there doesn’t seem to be a lot of allied armor built. Like i stated above there’s all these camo patterns but something else to note is the most popular tank to build for the allies is a Sherman. Now there’s multiple variations of the Sherman which anyone who studies and models the subject would have more then that. But the axis had everything from the panzer I to the King Tiger. I know there were other allied tanks such as Cromwell and Churchill but i just don’t see those subjects peeking the interest of allied model builders but i could be wrong. I think another thing that the axis builders got going for them is armored trains. Like come on growing up i loved tanks and trains and now i can combine that into a military train. There never really were any allied armored trains, there were Russian and polish ones but that’s another subject.



You need to open your mind and do a little looking. There were plenty of Non OD Allied schemes for most of the war and some pretty amazing ones at that (French 39-40, UK in France, NA and Italy including the first ever "Ambush Scheme long before we saw it on German Pz's, etc). British Schemes in NA ranged from very extravagant to Single shades but the variety of colours and schemes is pretty mind boggling with Browns, Purples, Slate, Black, Greens, and many other shades as disruptors. The USMC and Army in the Pacific had some amazing schemes as well. The variety of Allied Armour is similarly diverse you just have not noticed it e.g M3,M5Lt, M3 Mediums, M4 Mediums, M26 mediums, M10, M36, M18 etc etc, for the British and French it is even more diverse such as A9, A10, A13 (Four distinct types), A15 Crusader (2 distinct types and various AA etc), Cromwell, Churchills in Mk 1-V111 (Very disticnt differences between most marks) , A34 Comet, Valentines in many marks, tetrach, Locust, Matilda, etc etc etc
. As for Armoured Trains well that is not an area I really care about and they were confined in reality to Eastern Europe hence no real allied subjects although the British had them for Home defence in a limited capacity in the early 40's.
Al
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Tuesday, May 07, 2019 - 09:28 AM UTC
ummmmm
The number of released kits of different types may not necessarily say anything about the relative customer interest in those kits.
Assume 5 axis kits and 95 non-axis.
The axis kits sell 100000 copies each = 500000
The non-axis kits sell 10 copies each = 950
The probability of a random model in a show being
non-axis would be 950 / 500000 = 1/500 or 0.02%
These numbers are grossly exaggerated to demonstrate a point

Data from Scalemates will only show the number of options available to a modeler visiting the Mother of all LHS, the modelers paradise with one copy of each kit ever produced.
Without sales data from the manufacturers there is now way to translate numbers from Scalemates into some approximation of what kits are actually lurking out there in various stashes.

/ Robin
panzerbob01
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Posted: Tuesday, May 07, 2019 - 01:02 PM UTC

Quoted Text

ummmmm
The number of released kits of different types may not necessarily say anything about the relative customer interest in those kits.
Assume 5 axis kits and 95 non-axis.
The axis kits sell 100000 copies each = 500000
The non-axis kits sell 10 copies each = 950
The probability of a random model in a show being
non-axis would be 950 / 500000 = 1/500 or 0.02%
These numbers are grossly exaggerated to demonstrate a point

Data from Scalemates will only show the number of options available to a modeler visiting the Mother of all LHS, the modelers paradise with one copy of each kit ever produced.
Without sales data from the manufacturers there is now way to translate numbers from Scalemates into some approximation of what kits are actually lurking out there in various stashes.

/ Robin



Which of course is one reason that I did say "And that would certainly be one of the "right" ways to actually partially "technically" assess the original question!"....! The operative is "partially". The number of different kits (or accessory sets, or decal sets, or...) would be actual measures of the range and richness of what has been produced and become available. It says nothing about how many of each have been sold.

The "near-deal" world for answering the OP's question would be a data-base showing all of the stuff ever made, along with numbers sold per some unit-time (per year?), a clear assignment to some defined genre(s) (which would be the compared classes in an analysis - perhaps "Axis 1939-45" defined in some clear way), and some sub-class(es) of "in or to what market?" (Asia, Europe, NA, etc., maybe? To define markets, because each market may well exhibit its own trends in buying over time).

Most of these data do actually exist for a few years, albeit likely un-reachable (manufacturers probably do have records of what stuff they made and numbers SOLD (and only the SOLD really count - if the manufacturer didn't move it along, it wasn't visible to the end-buyers) each year - for at least a few years - but getting these records would, I bet, be more than very hard! ).

Of course, Robin, these data would only begin to answer the question for those who agreed with using what was sold when and where as providing adequate answers to the question. One could, of course, extract real numerical changes over time, as well as changes in proportion by class or genre over time, from these data. But one could not extract a clear, direct measure of personal "interest" - only, at best, a potential inference based on assuming that people buy what they are interested in!

If we weren't getting "academic" before... I think we can fairly claim to have now fully moved into that realm!

Cheers! Bob
GregCopplin
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Posted: Tuesday, May 07, 2019 - 01:54 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

I will say the one thing that i personally like about modeling axis armor is that you have multiple variations of camoflauge to paint. It kind of makes for more creativity. With allied armor you don’t really see that, it’s more of olive drab and that’s it. Sorry just a little side rant. I noticed the comment on WW1 subjects, I’d like to say that this could maybe be attributed to the fact that video games such as Battlefied 1 have came out and now it’s peaked the interest of kids to model that subject. I will say It seems like video games are beginning to influence modeling, looking at all the paper panzers , i feel like this is attributed to games like war thunder and world of tanks. But with these games you also get to play as the unknown allied tanks and even a random Chinese tank or two as well. I think if anything there doesn’t seem to be a lot of allied armor built. Like i stated above there’s all these camo patterns but something else to note is the most popular tank to build for the allies is a Sherman. Now there’s multiple variations of the Sherman which anyone who studies and models the subject would have more then that. But the axis had everything from the panzer I to the King Tiger. I know there were other allied tanks such as Cromwell and Churchill but i just don’t see those subjects peeking the interest of allied model builders but i could be wrong. I think another thing that the axis builders got going for them is armored trains. Like come on growing up i loved tanks and trains and now i can combine that into a military train. There never really were any allied armored trains, there were Russian and polish ones but that’s another subject.



You need to open your mind and do a little looking. There were plenty of Non OD Allied schemes for most of the war and some pretty amazing ones at that (French 39-40, UK in France, NA and Italy including the first ever "Ambush Scheme long before we saw it on German Pz's, etc). British Schemes in NA ranged from very extravagant to Single shades but the variety of colours and schemes is pretty mind boggling with Browns, Purples, Slate, Black, Greens, and many other shades as disruptors. The USMC and Army in the Pacific had some amazing schemes as well. The variety of Allied Armour is similarly diverse you just have not noticed it e.g M3,M5Lt, M3 Mediums, M4 Mediums, M26 mediums, M10, M36, M18 etc etc, for the British and French it is even more diverse such as A9, A10, A13 (Four distinct types), A15 Crusader (2 distinct types and various AA etc), Cromwell, Churchills in Mk 1-V111 (Very disticnt differences between most marks) , A34 Comet, Valentines in many marks, tetrach, Locust, Matilda, etc etc etc
. As for Armoured Trains well that is not an area I really care about and they were confined in reality to Eastern Europe hence no real allied subjects although the British had them for Home defence in a limited capacity in the early 40's.
Al



Trust me i have an open mind, have been dabbling in allied armor here and there. Now have i studied various allied armor components besides the Sherman in an od pattern, simply put no. I do say also that my interest was originally in allied armor as a kid, i used to love the grant tank and loved the Cromwell even built a Pershing but As i grew up and started reading about the tank aces I’d say that’s when i became more interested in German armor and studying the eastern front more then the western front. Actually this forum now has me interested in wanting to build and dabble in the pacific theater with all the variations of marine lvts/ amtraks.
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Tuesday, May 07, 2019 - 10:02 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

ummmmm
The number of released kits of different types may not necessarily say anything about the relative customer interest in those kits.
Assume 5 axis kits and 95 non-axis.
The axis kits sell 100000 copies each = 500000
The non-axis kits sell 10 copies each = 950
The probability of a random model in a show being
non-axis would be 950 / 500000 = 1/500 or 0.02%
These numbers are grossly exaggerated to demonstrate a point

Data from Scalemates will only show the number of options available to a modeler visiting the Mother of all LHS, the modelers paradise with one copy of each kit ever produced.
Without sales data from the manufacturers there is now way to translate numbers from Scalemates into some approximation of what kits are actually lurking out there in various stashes.

/ Robin



Which of course is one reason that I did say "And that would certainly be one of the "right" ways to actually partially "technically" assess the original question!"....! The operative is "partially". The number of different kits (or accessory sets, or decal sets, or...) would be actual measures of the range and richness of what has been produced and become available. It says nothing about how many of each have been sold.

The "near-deal" world for answering the OP's question would be a data-base showing all of the stuff ever made, along with numbers sold per some unit-time (per year?), a clear assignment to some defined genre(s) (which would be the compared classes in an analysis - perhaps "Axis 1939-45" defined in some clear way), and some sub-class(es) of "in or to what market?" (Asia, Europe, NA, etc., maybe? To define markets, because each market may well exhibit its own trends in buying over time).

Most of these data do actually exist for a few years, albeit likely un-reachable (manufacturers probably do have records of what stuff they made and numbers SOLD (and only the SOLD really count - if the manufacturer didn't move it along, it wasn't visible to the end-buyers) each year - for at least a few years - but getting these records would, I bet, be more than very hard! ).

Of course, Robin, these data would only begin to answer the question for those who agreed with using what was sold when and where as providing adequate answers to the question. One could, of course, extract real numerical changes over time, as well as changes in proportion by class or genre over time, from these data. But one could not extract a clear, direct measure of personal "interest" - only, at best, a potential inference based on assuming that people buy what they are interested in!

If we weren't getting "academic" before... I think we can fairly claim to have now fully moved into that realm!

Cheers! Bob



I think I will dedicate my spare time to solving the problems involved in generating electricity with nuclear fusion instead. Feels more doable
Over & Out / Robin
ivanhoe6
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Posted: Tuesday, May 07, 2019 - 11:33 PM UTC
WOW, I just read from the first post to the last one. Never gave it much thought before until now. Looking at my WIP pile (waiting for warmer weather to paint) I have: 7 US, 3 from 1990's& 4WWII, 5 German, 3 modern &2 WWII, 1 modern French, and 2 Commonwealth, 1 modern & 1 WWII. I guess that makes the last 8 months a pretty diverse Winter of building. My stash reflects a lot of older German kits though. I guess the new releases push the older ones deeper & deeper into the closet. Not mattering what country they're from.

Here's a question : What countries and how many are represented in your WIP pile ?
TopSmith
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Posted: Wednesday, May 08, 2019 - 12:09 AM UTC
This is a trend I have noticed. It appears that there are more topics of late in the forum on nonAxis vehicles. There has been more clamoring for nonAxis kits in the forum. I assume more topics means people have a wider range of kits they are working on because of a broader range of kits available from manufactures. I think we still like Axis armor but the newer kit variety has given us options we did not have before. Looking at my stash I have noticed I have only added one Axis tank in the last year and three nonAxis. If you look at the number of Axis topics on this forum page at the moment it is one by David on the transport track. There are only two on WWII subjects, the second being a Matilda.
Bravo1102
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Posted: Wednesday, May 08, 2019 - 12:26 AM UTC
When I was in retail, it usually wasn't sales that indicated a lucrative market but how many competitors there were in said market trying to all sell basically the same thing.

So if only one company makes a Cromwell there's not a.huge market or sales for Cromwells. But if every company serving the market feels a need to enter the market with a Tiger -- German sells. German dominates the market because most of the choices and demand and interest in the market is for German subjects.

Works with ties, dress shirts, answering machines and CD players, should work with model kits.

And I have a few more kits needing weathering and figures there's German, Israeli, Gulf War Sheridan, a what-if M60A4 and a Klingon battle cruiser.
panzerbob01
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Posted: Wednesday, May 08, 2019 - 04:12 AM UTC

Quoted Text

When I was in retail, it usually wasn't sales that indicated a lucrative market but how many competitors there were in said market trying to all sell basically the same thing.

So if only one company makes a Cromwell there's not a.huge market or sales for Cromwells. But if every company serving the market feels a need to enter the market with a Tiger -- German sells. German dominates the market because most of the choices and demand and interest in the market is for German subjects.

Works with ties, dress shirts, answering machines and CD players, should work with model kits.

And I have a few more kits needing weathering and figures there's German, Israeli, Gulf War Sheridan, a what-if M60A4 and a Klingon battle cruiser.



Probably what every retailer really wants to know is HOW MANY of those "same / similar" goods are getting sold by those competitors! And it's that detail which is so hard for folks to discover.

The Ford plant made the Edsel. Glowing reports recorded that the plant had sold and shipped many 1000's of the things to dealers - a manufacturer-level SUCCESS! Of course, those cars were shipped to retailers (dealers)... who ended up having inventory which moved slower than "molasses flows in January". The count of competitor dealerships selling the same thing was high - which could suggest to each dealer that Edsels had real sales potential. After awhile... we all learned that nobody was BUYING the Edsel from ANY dealer!

So what would be a really good measure would be that "holy grail" for both manufacturers and retailers; a solid count of what the BUYERS actually took home from those retailers.

In some dreamy world, maybe a set of us armor modelers would volunteer to post or list ALL kits, parts, AM, decal-sets, etc. that we buy in each of, say, 3 sequential years. That data would give a consumer poll allowing one to analyze whether actual counts-bought x class or genre changed over time, which would yield analysis of trend and of proportionality x class or genre.

I think that my Takom T-55AMV WIP is coming back to the bench for some serious, "non-Axis-centric" love! My long-neglected StuG III E project will just have to be patient a bit longer!
RLlockie
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Posted: Wednesday, May 08, 2019 - 06:08 AM UTC
Although only for a statistically insignificant percentage of the consumer market. It seems to me that feedback from retailers and wholesalers in terms of whether they order more of a particular line or not might be a more reliable source of information for manufacturers. I’d kind of expect that the market works that way currently as it makes sense for all parties.
M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Wednesday, May 08, 2019 - 06:11 AM UTC

Quoted Text

When I was in retail, it usually wasn't sales that indicated a lucrative market but how many competitors there were in said market trying to all sell basically the same thing.

So if only one company makes a Cromwell there's not a.huge market or sales for Cromwells. But if every company serving the market feels a need to enter the market with a Tiger -- German sells. German dominates the market because most of the choices and demand and interest in the market is for German subjects.

Works with ties, dress shirts, answering machines and CD players, should work with model kits.

And I have a few more kits needing weathering and figures there's German, Israeli, Gulf War Sheridan, a what-if M60A4 and a Klingon battle cruiser.



Works with toilet paper, too...
M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Wednesday, May 08, 2019 - 07:48 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

When I was in retail, it usually wasn't sales that indicated a lucrative market but how many competitors there were in said market trying to all sell basically the same thing.

So if only one company makes a Cromwell there's not a.huge market or sales for Cromwells. But if every company serving the market feels a need to enter the market with a Tiger -- German sells. German dominates the market because most of the choices and demand and interest in the market is for German subjects.

Works with ties, dress shirts, answering machines and CD players, should work with model kits.

And I have a few more kits needing weathering and figures there's German, Israeli, Gulf War Sheridan, a what-if M60A4 and a Klingon battle cruiser.



Probably what every retailer really wants to know is HOW MANY of those "same / similar" goods are getting sold by those competitors! And it's that detail which is so hard for folks to discover.

The Ford plant made the Edsel. Glowing reports recorded that the plant had sold and shipped many 1000's of the things to dealers - a manufacturer-level SUCCESS! Of course, those cars were shipped to retailers (dealers)... who ended up having inventory which moved slower than "molasses flows in January". The count of competitor dealerships selling the same thing was high - which could suggest to each dealer that Edsels had real sales potential. After awhile... we all learned that nobody was BUYING the Edsel from ANY dealer!

So what would be a really good measure would be that "holy grail" for both manufacturers and retailers; a solid count of what the BUYERS actually took home from those retailers.

In some dreamy world, maybe a set of us armor modelers would volunteer to post or list ALL kits, parts, AM, decal-sets, etc. that we buy in each of, say, 3 sequential years. That data would give a consumer poll allowing one to analyze whether actual counts-bought x class or genre changed over time, which would yield analysis of trend and of proportionality x class or genre.

I think that my Takom T-55AMV WIP is coming back to the bench for some serious, "non-Axis-centric" love! My long-neglected StuG III E project will just have to be patient a bit longer!



Alright, we all know that German WWII stuff sells. Isn't there a possibility that WWII US/Allied would sell also if there were more of it to sell..?

I can remember a time when I was in the car business, SUVs didn't sell because people, i.e, consumers weren't very interested in them. GM, Ford, Chrysler and the Asian manufacturers launched MASSIVE TV Ad Campaigns in order to sell these things, and there were HUGE SALES, ( the "caps" are the auto manufacturers', not mine- ), with in some cases, the dealers netting only a $5.00 profit, depending on which "sled" they were trying to get rid of. There came even HUGER TV Ad Campaigns, with SUVs climbing impossible, nearly 90-degrees to the vertical rock formations, fording raging rivers, and throwing up clouds of sand in 120-degree (Fahrenheit) deserts. No tires were blown, or engines killed, nor were radiators boiling over, transmissions and/or rear ends giving out, or the rest of the vehicles' body or interior components or chassis rattling themselves to an early demise in these overly-exaggerated TV ads.

Believe it or not, some people actually believe whatever they see on television.

The auto manufacturers then decided to throw "cosmetics" into the mix in order to get women to convince their husbands, boyfriends or concubines that SUVs were even PRETTY to look at.

The NEXT step was to raise the prices of these SUVs, which are really no more than "puffed-up" trucks, to the point of the ridiculous, in order to get the consumers to believe that they were REEEEALLY buying something "special". Believe me, we had all kinds of factory "ad-men", ad-managers, production managers, marketing-people, sales-reps and all of their "next-generation ad-baloney" hyping-up what was coming out of the factories next AT FULL, EARDRUM-BURSTING VOLUME. Yes, it was a super-duper BULLS**T campaign to sell something that the consumer wouldn't have given a second thought to, if he, she or it, hadn't seen it on TV... Ever stop to watch these dopey TV commercials that are pushing the latest, greatest "new inventions?

"EVERYBODY'S BUYING THE NEW (insert piece of junk here) !!! DON'T BE LAST!!!"

Just stop and think for a minute how much more money "STAR WARS" MERCHANDISE has made, over and beyond the money the movies have made themselves... The same can be said for this latest "GAME of THRONES" nonsense...

By comparison, in our teeny-tiny niche of the plastic model industry, WE, the military modelers, can be likened to the last living do-do birds. Yes, GERMAN SELLS... Why? Because the model manufacturers have never really given the rest of the "other stuff" that's out there a real, fighting chance. That means, we've been bombarded by all of that Axis stuff for all of these years, and we've only gotten a comparative trickle of said "other stuff" over the same period of time.

I'm not directing these questions towards the die-hard German-fans, who won't even stop to look at anything else, but to you fellas who build other stuff, besides. Ask yourselves these questions, and be honest with yourselves:

Wouldn't you have bought the new, upcoming 1/35 M4A1 76mm VVSS (Wet) and M4A3E8 Sherman kits years ago if they had been available? Those great new 1/35 Merkavas, with TROPHY, no less? The Leos? All of the modern Chinese and Russian stuff that some of the Asian model manufacturers have been supplying us with for the last few years? And EVEN the modern US, British and French vehicles?

My whole point in this latest "diatribe", is that if it's NOT available, how can we buy it..? What DO we buy to occupy our modeling-time with, if there is really not that much out there that is "state-of-the-art", save WWII German..? What I've just typed here is an over-simplification, of course. But sometimes, one is compelled to exaggerate if only to make a simple illustration...

WWII "Axis" assuredly won't die, and quite honestly, I would be sad if it did. I DO on rare occasions, (especially lately, what with my health problems) build 1/35 WWII German stuff. Admittedly, nothing in "tri-color" camo since 2004, but YES in Dunkelgrau, this being my BRONCO Pz.Kpfw.III Ausf.A...

I've been paying attention to the European modelers on this site and quite a few others; there IS a new trend in Armor, i.e, Tanks, AFVs and Soft-skins. You fellas have seen it yourselves-

I see a lot more Leos, VABs, Merkavas, Le Clercs, Challies, Conquerers, Scorpions, "modern" US, Russian and Chinese Tanks and AFVs, and a few more WWII US/Allied subjects that are being built than there were just a few short years ago. The Eastern European modelers are also showing us what they are very ably doing, and for the most part, what they ARE showing us isn't WWII German...

All some of us ask of the model manufacturers is that we get a few more things that aren't AXIS "Tri-color", and then they'll see A LOT more of our money...

PS- The Edsel wasn't really a "lemon"; it was just too far ahead of its time... The buying public wasn't "ready" for it. That, and that UNFORTUNATE, God-awful UGLY "Horse Collar" of a Grille Shell. The Edsel became a laughingstock over that Grille Shell and the public wasn't ready for the "gimmickry" of its interior and instrumentation. If Ford had waited until 1965 or so, and had updated the sheet metal styling to 1965-standards, the Edsel might have gone on to become a "big seller". Besides which, one could buy a similarly-equipped Mercury for less money...

Kevlar06
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Posted: Wednesday, May 08, 2019 - 07:56 AM UTC

Quoted Text

This is a trend I have noticed. It appears that there are more topics of late in the forum on nonAxis vehicles. There has been more clamoring for nonAxis kits in the forum. I assume more topics means people have a wider range of kits they are working on because of a broader range of kits available from manufactures. I think we still like Axis armor but the newer kit variety has given us options we did not have before. Looking at my stash I have noticed I have only added one Axis tank in the last year and three nonAxis. If you look at the number of Axis topics on this forum page at the moment it is one by David on the transport track. There are only two on WWII subjects, the second being a Matilda.



Greg is right on target with his comments. When I worked in a “full service” LHS- we dealt in all aspects of the hobby— wood ships, balsa aircraft, die cast, and all forms of plastic, “Axis” was only one very small part of what we sold. As more and more kits of all stripes became available, those newer “non-Axis” kits would walk out of the shop at an increasingly higher and higher rate. It’s not that Panzers and Messerschmitts weren’t attractive anymore, it just that there was more choice. There will always be a “niche” market of “Axis” modelers, but we are truly living in a “golden age” where demand for all kinds of models is being effectively met by all kinds of manufacturers. I think another dynamic is the “distance” and “generational gap” moving away from WWII “Axis” subjects into other genres. For instance, WWI modeling has inspired an entirely new manufacturer (WingNut Wings), which amazingly only produced expensive, excellent kits in a single, non-WWII oriented genre, and managed to almost single handedly create its own demand. Many more subjects from WWI are now appearing on the contest tables which formerly only held WWII interests. Also, where “Axis” modeling used to be “unique” due to the attractive variety of equipment, camouflage schemes and historical context, now it’s very “pervasiveness” has led to “Axis” subjects being more “run of the mill” and no longer “unique”. I’m not saying it’s “boring”, just that there are so many other subject areas Modelers can experiment with today that never existed before (in plastic anyway).
VR, Russ
M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Wednesday, May 08, 2019 - 08:17 AM UTC
[quote]Dennis S.;

[quote]32.2% is "Axis"... 67.8% is "everything else"... Is it REEEALLY that important? Wow...
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No, Dennis, NOT important (to me) at all! But this IS INTERESTING - to ME! And perhaps to some others. Evidently, signalling your disdain for what I posted IS IMPORTANT, to YOU!

I am amused to see you say what you did, given how much energy and time YOU have previously put into this discussion!

Usually, I figure that those who post a lot in a thread are either stating that they think the discussion and subject are "important", or that they find it "interesting". The discussion and subject is EXTREMELY INTERESTING, but decidedly NOT important, to me. How about to YOU?

Cheers! Bob



Hi, Bob!

If I didn't think that posting in this thread was worth my time, I wouldn't have done so in the first place!

I post here on ARMORAMA to pass my time with people who share some of my interests, and my interests vary VERY widely. A lot of times people give me HELL because they don't like my opinions, and ESPECIALLY when I use "caps". So what... I really don't care if they do.

On the other hand, there are a few people here who DON'T look for excuses to give me hell. You are one of them. If I post an opinion that is contrary to yours, it is my wish that you do not take it personally, and CERTAINLY NOT as disdain. I can SEEMINGLY be pretty contrary and sarcastic sometimes, but it's very rarely meant to be anything that should be taken seriously. When I'm serious, I am serious in no uncertain terms...

Steve posted perhaps one of the best compliments I've ever received on this site, not long ago...

If I may paraphrase him,

"You just keep on being a curmudgeon"...

A curmudgeon, I shall remain...

PS- I only blow kisses to my Girlfriend...
Removed by original poster on 05/08/19 - 20:28:04 (GMT).
M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Wednesday, May 08, 2019 - 08:31 AM UTC

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I will say the one thing that i personally like about modeling axis armor is that you have multiple variations of camoflauge to paint. It kind of makes for more creativity. With allied armor you don’t really see that, it’s more of olive drab and that’s it. Sorry just a little side rant. I noticed the comment on WW1 subjects, I’d like to say that this could maybe be attributed to the fact that video games such as Battlefied 1 have came out and now it’s peaked the interest of kids to model that subject. I will say It seems like video games are beginning to influence modeling, looking at all the paper panzers , i feel like this is attributed to games like war thunder and world of tanks. But with these games you also get to play as the unknown allied tanks and even a random Chinese tank or two as well. I think if anything there doesn’t seem to be a lot of allied armor built. Like i stated above there’s all these camo patterns but something else to note is the most popular tank to build for the allies is a Sherman. Now there’s multiple variations of the Sherman which anyone who studies and models the subject would have more then that. But the axis had everything from the panzer I to the King Tiger. I know there were other allied tanks such as Cromwell and Churchill but i just don’t see those subjects peeking the interest of allied model builders but i could be wrong. I think another thing that the axis builders got going for them is armored trains. Like come on growing up i loved tanks and trains and now i can combine that into a military train. There never really were any allied armored trains, there were Russian and polish ones but that’s another subject.



You need to open your mind and do a little looking. There were plenty of Non OD Allied schemes for most of the war and some pretty amazing ones at that (French 39-40, UK in France, NA and Italy including the first ever "Ambush Scheme long before we saw it on German Pz's, etc). British Schemes in NA ranged from very extravagant to Single shades but the variety of colours and schemes is pretty mind boggling with Browns, Purples, Slate, Black, Greens, and many other shades as disruptors. The USMC and Army in the Pacific had some amazing schemes as well. The variety of Allied Armour is similarly diverse you just have not noticed it e.g M3,M5Lt, M3 Mediums, M4 Mediums, M26 mediums, M10, M36, M18 etc etc, for the British and French it is even more diverse such as A9, A10, A13 (Four distinct types), A15 Crusader (2 distinct types and various AA etc), Cromwell, Churchills in Mk 1-V111 (Very disticnt differences between most marks) , A34 Comet, Valentines in many marks, tetrach, Locust, Matilda, etc etc etc
. As for Armoured Trains well that is not an area I really care about and they were confined in reality to Eastern Europe hence no real allied subjects although the British had them for Home defence in a limited capacity in the early 40's.
Al





Thank You Al, for reiterating what I was saying a few posts ago. Some people could stand to broaden their horizons. Is ACTUALLY saying this so offensive..?
M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Wednesday, May 08, 2019 - 08:36 AM UTC

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This is a trend I have noticed. It appears that there are more topics of late in the forum on nonAxis vehicles. There has been more clamoring for nonAxis kits in the forum. I assume more topics means people have a wider range of kits they are working on because of a broader range of kits available from manufactures. I think we still like Axis armor but the newer kit variety has given us options we did not have before. Looking at my stash I have noticed I have only added one Axis tank in the last year and three nonAxis. If you look at the number of Axis topics on this forum page at the moment it is one by David on the transport track. There are only two on WWII subjects, the second being a Matilda.



Greg is right on target with his comments. When I worked in a “full service” LHS- we dealt in all aspects of the hobby— wood ships, balsa aircraft, die cast, and all forms of plastic, “Axis” was only one very small part of what we sold. As more and more kits of all stripes became available, those newer “non-Axis” kits would walk out of the shop at an increasingly higher and higher rate. It’s not that Panzers and Messerschmitts weren’t attractive anymore, it just that there was more choice. There will always be a “niche” market of “Axis” modelers, but we are truly living in a “golden age” where demand for all kinds of models is being effectively met by all kinds of manufacturers. I think another dynamic is the “distance” and “generational gap” moving away from WWII “Axis” subjects into other genres. For instance, WWI modeling has inspired an entirely new manufacturer (WingNut Wings), which amazingly only produced expensive, excellent kits in a single, non-WWII oriented genre, and managed to almost single handedly create its own demand. Many more subjects from WWI are now appearing on the contest tables which formerly only held WWII interests. Also, where “Axis” modeling used to be “unique” due to the attractive variety of equipment, camouflage schemes and historical context, now it’s very “pervasiveness” has led to “Axis” subjects being more “run of the mill” and no longer “unique”. I’m not saying it’s “boring”, just that there are so many other subject areas Modelers can experiment with today that never existed before (in plastic anyway).
VR, Russ





Thank You, Russ! What have I been saying all along? I feel vindicated!

("vindicated"- No, that's not exactly an SB2U...)
m4sherman
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Posted: Wednesday, May 08, 2019 - 12:09 PM UTC
In response to the original post, I truly hope not. Very often WWII German subjects draw people in. I wanted to get that Monogram Stug IV kit after seeing a cousin had one on his shelf. All I could find was the Grant and M4, and I was hooked. Never did get that Stug, but I nabbed every M4 I could afford ($4.00 was hard to come by in my house). By the time I had a real job I had discovered Tamiya.

As a guess about 40% of my kits are German, with 70% being PZIII variants.
GregCopplin
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Posted: Wednesday, May 08, 2019 - 02:45 PM UTC

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I will say the one thing that i personally like about modeling axis armor is that you have multiple variations of camoflauge to paint. It kind of makes for more creativity. With allied armor you don’t really see that, it’s more of olive drab and that’s it. Sorry just a little side rant. I noticed the comment on WW1 subjects, I’d like to say that this could maybe be attributed to the fact that video games such as Battlefied 1 have came out and now it’s peaked the interest of kids to model that subject. I will say It seems like video games are beginning to influence modeling, looking at all the paper panzers , i feel like this is attributed to games like war thunder and world of tanks. But with these games you also get to play as the unknown allied tanks and even a random Chinese tank or two as well. I think if anything there doesn’t seem to be a lot of allied armor built. Like i stated above there’s all these camo patterns but something else to note is the most popular tank to build for the allies is a Sherman. Now there’s multiple variations of the Sherman which anyone who studies and models the subject would have more then that. But the axis had everything from the panzer I to the King Tiger. I know there were other allied tanks such as Cromwell and Churchill but i just don’t see those subjects peeking the interest of allied model builders but i could be wrong. I think another thing that the axis builders got going for them is armored trains. Like come on growing up i loved tanks and trains and now i can combine that into a military train. There never really were any allied armored trains, there were Russian and polish ones but that’s another subject.



You need to open your mind and do a little looking. There were plenty of Non OD Allied schemes for most of the war and some pretty amazing ones at that (French 39-40, UK in France, NA and Italy including the first ever "Ambush Scheme long before we saw it on German Pz's, etc). British Schemes in NA ranged from very extravagant to Single shades but the variety of colours and schemes is pretty mind boggling with Browns, Purples, Slate, Black, Greens, and many other shades as disruptors. The USMC and Army in the Pacific had some amazing schemes as well. The variety of Allied Armour is similarly diverse you just have not noticed it e.g M3,M5Lt, M3 Mediums, M4 Mediums, M26 mediums, M10, M36, M18 etc etc, for the British and French it is even more diverse such as A9, A10, A13 (Four distinct types), A15 Crusader (2 distinct types and various AA etc), Cromwell, Churchills in Mk 1-V111 (Very disticnt differences between most marks) , A34 Comet, Valentines in many marks, tetrach, Locust, Matilda, etc etc etc
. As for Armoured Trains well that is not an area I really care about and they were confined in reality to Eastern Europe hence no real allied subjects although the British had them for Home defence in a limited capacity in the early 40's.
Al





Thank You Al, for reiterating what I was saying a few posts ago. Some people could stand to broaden their horizons. Is ACTUALLY saying this so offensive..?



Never took offense to what you said, it’s almost as if you got butt hurt cause i said i thought allied armor was boring, which you did let’s be honest but let’s just say different strokes for different folks. . I merely stated what i saw and took notice too when it came to allied armor being for sale at the Lhs nearest me, it was a few Sherman’s. Yes i know there were the Stuart’s, grants and Matilda’s and so on. They’re all great and special in there own way. But once again just stating what i see and notice which isn’t all that much because it’s not something that consumes to the point that my back side gets all puckered up when another King Tiger kit gets released, now i will admit seeing five companies release a King Tiger is annoying at times, but at the end of the day someone’s gonna go out and buy it.
knewton
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Posted: Wednesday, May 08, 2019 - 05:30 PM UTC
Ok, let’s get back to sniffing paint and gluing our fingers together. It remains a moot point whether Axis modelling has peaked or not. Is it safe to say, a) it is a great hobby, and b) there are loads more subjects to be covered yet!

Whether it is a cross or a star on the side of your preferred vehicle, make it to the best of your ability, then buy another.
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Wednesday, May 08, 2019 - 07:23 PM UTC








knewton
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Posted: Wednesday, May 08, 2019 - 08:02 PM UTC
Robin, you’re not helping....