From what little I know about VAT, The buyer pays and not the seller.

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if the statements that preceded my reply had been made in my presence, a similar exchange would have occurred.

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As of 17-5-19, the "statements that preceded my reply" contain no errors or failures of understanding. Therefore I don't see why you would accuse their authors of incomprehension.

And I don't see why you would talk about Bush etc. when none of those comments were in that area.

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If you’re that concerned, and hobby doom is breathing down your neck, have the guts to start your own model manafacturing company. How hard can it be?

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There are a whole range of necessary supplies that cost more in the USA than in China, starting with staff. Outsourcing doesn't happen for no reason. Your solution isn't a solution.

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please don’t say this president is a liar. THEY HAVE ALL BEEN LIARS!

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I hope you've done your fact-checking before throwing such an insult at forty-four hard working men?

But the point is; this president's comments about tariffs are stupid, transparent lies.

David

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.... CHINA has been trampling all over the United States since 1949...

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Didn't the western powers do the same to China in the 1800s?

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Perhaps one needs to look at imported model kits and stuff as being two different populations, in terms of tariffs and taxes?

...

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The collection agency for stuff with duty that is mailed to you is the USPS. I don't think they will ship UPS or fedex when the American taxpayer is subsidizing the postal rates for developing conutries. China is on that list.

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If my past experience is any measure... Customs can and will hold stuff pending payment of tariffs. But who holds the goods - Customs, the USPS, whomever - isn't the point. Us buyers WILL end up paying some tariff on kits eventually. Basically, models are now on the tariff list - they are "toys", and toys are on the current list.

The sad part is that local hobby wholesalers and retailers are caught - and stuff going by the crate to distributors will get a tariff charged. And this will pass to the retailers, who need to pass it on to you. So, EXPECT kits made in China to go UP in price. And expect more brick-n-mortar hobby stores to fold.

Tariffs are NEVER good for retailers, nor for buyers / consumers. The result is always that prices go UP. This have been borne out in every case throughout history. In the case of the plastic model hobby, tariffs will simply raise our costs.

For ALL models and related, likely. Retailers will try to restrain the 25% increase being levied on Chinese goods - which will become much less viable in their stores if raised the mandated 25% - by raising other goods in price to cover their tariff outlay while NOT raising prices the whole 25% on the ever-so-popular Chinese kits. NOBODY wins. Unless you can afford the hikes and don't mind paying more, your buying will be reduced. Means that the LHS will make fewer sales on average. NOBODY WINS.

The tariffs are allegedly aimed at pressuring China to change some aspects of how it does business with us. I can't fault the WH for trying to fix some of these standing issues. But tariffs are not actually the seeming best tool to push this quest along. What IS GUARANTEED is that all lower and middle (economic) class Americans will simply suffer some price inflation - and because many of the basic consumer goods in America are Chinese... this impact could be quite substantial.

May I suggest that each of us / you try actually figuring out what YOUR cost will be from this game? EVERY Chinese good that you will buy is likely to go up 25% in price (or other, non-Chinese goods will go up some so that stores can keep price-hikes on Chinese goods down some). Some of you likely buy a fair amount of made-in-China stuff on a week-to-week or monthly basis. So figure it out! And then, once YOU can estimate the cost... Ask yourself whether that cost or lost buying-power was worth whatever YOU think that we will actually "win" from this tiff.

No. The tariffs won't likely get YOU a new job with more pay. YES, it may drive some stores out of business. YES, it WILL impact your stock portfolio and IRA investments.

And YES, expect our hobby to get more expensive!

Cheers! Bob

---

Wow Bob you must need to buy new models like some of us buy milk, bread and tater chips.

First off, I can retire with the kits I have now. If you need a couple let me know, I’ll let them go cheaper than the Chicoms.

Retailers always have the option of not stocking Chinese made goods. If any brick and mortar closes due the the tariffs, they had other issues entirely unrelated to importing model kits.

Nobody is arguing that a trade war is a good thing, but nothing China makes can’t be got anywhere else, and likely of better quality. So if I have to pay $5 more for sheet rock that isn’t laced with poison, I think I’ll handle that. I think most Americans will bite the bullet once they realize - if the hyperbole dissipates - that China has robbed us blind for years. Pocketed our politicians and CEOs and stolen everything that hasn’t been nailed down since Nixon visited Beijing.

Fact of the matter is this economy is roaring and this trade war isn’t going to stop that. If we lose a Walmart or three... life goes on. Same as it did when Walmart put dozens of other retailers out of business.

This tariff situation is not about punishing the Chicoms, it to try and stem their punishment of our economy. Trump is asking for nothing from them that our other trade partners don’t already give - without manipulating their currency everyday.

Sorry Bob, but your hyperbole is more whiny and moaning. Your TDS is showing.

---

Wow, Kip! Boy, did you come out sounding like someone somehow dissed you or spat in your drink! Calm, friend! This thread is about what folks THINK may happen in or to our hobby regarding the tariffs imposed on Chinese goods. I's NOT the forum for attacking others because you happen to disagree with what they said.

Let's see... What, exactly, do YOU find at all "hyperbolic" in what I said? Do you, for instance, not believe that tariffs will raise prices for Chinese-made goods here in the US? Ask Walmart. They already raised their alarm about this (check out their commentary in the news today and read a few financially-oriented commentaries on this subject). It's a given that prices WILL GO UP. NOT any sort of hyperbole, friend, just cold fact.

Do YOU not believe that hobby stores / retailers in the US, currently HUGELY based on selling CHINESE stuff, won't be impacted? Not hyperbole. Just plain fact.

Do YOU believe that the lower and middle-class folks in the US won't actually simply PAY MORE for the stuff that they buy due to these tariffs? Not hyperbole. Just plain fact. No way to AVOID THIS, friend.

Do YOU believe that tariffs are actually somehow GOOD for retailers who are trying to sell those tariff-laden goods?

If YOU think any of these questions or concepts are "hyperbolic", perhaps, instead of attacking someone and shrilling about your "understanding" of the reasoning politicians behind the tariffs and trade-war follow, YOU might offer some half-cogent rebuttal to any or all of these actual stated points.

I personally don't require anyone, not even a rather shrill and empty-headed, ignorant-sounding Trump-defender such as you sell yourself to be, agree with anything I might say.

I DO, however, expect a modicum of polite CIVILITY, friend. To do anything else - such as you have already done - is to make yourself sound pretty darned ignorant and stupid. And certainly intolerant of other's view-points.

Let me end with address of your "points":

1) No, friend, I neither buy much nor NEED ANY MORE model stuff. My stash is pretty replete. And I don't worry about the cost of either kits or sheet-rock.

2) No, the "economy" is NOT "roaring along". Don't begin to say that as if it were some clearly-demonstrated "fact". It is NOT. It is YOUR OPINION that it may be doing so. Other, rather knowledgeable folks are much less sanguine about the current and future state of the US economy. Try saying that your OPINION is exactly that; YOUR OPINION. And nothing more. To do so might encourage others to respect you and your opinion. My OPINION is that "protectionism" in the market-place is, at best, a deceit and a rip-off perpetrated by politicians to benefit a few of their friends at the cost of many. Nothing lofty nor noble about starting trade-wars.

3) There are plenty of modelers who actually WANT those kits and AM stuff made in China. Chinese kits dominate the US model hobby. (They assuredly dominate my stash!) To suggest that those buyers can or should simply switch to other kits of OTHER SUBJECTS from other sources is, at best, callous and incredibly naive. Maybe you are one of those who tell less-wealthy folks in grocery stores to simply go buy other, cheaper foods AND BE HAPPY WITH YOUR OPTIONS when they are priced out of all the "good stuff"!

4) Contrary to your disrespectful assertions, I am in no way "whining" or "moaning". To point out what will likely happen in the given scenario is NEVER remotely "whining and moaning". It is stating what I THINK is likely to happen. Don't like what I say? Just say so and skip the ad-hominem crap. It makes you sound distinctly un-intelligent, friend.

Frankly, Kip, you sound like you have swallowed something rotten. Just spit it up and go drink some water, friend. A friendly piece of advice: Skip the angry bluster and defensive BS. If YOU think retailers won't be impacted, buyers won't be impacted, etc., just SAY SO, and skip the personal attacks. Friend.

Cheers! Bob

Yes, and China remembers. That is why this arm twisting won't be productive. We are the ones who forget the lessons of the past, not the Chinese.

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Perhaps one needs to look at imported model kits and stuff as being two different populations, in terms of tariffs and taxes?

...

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The collection agency for stuff with duty that is mailed to you is the USPS. I don't think they will ship UPS or fedex when the American taxpayer is subsidizing the postal rates for developing conutries. China is on that list.

---

If my past experience is any measure... Customs can and will hold stuff pending payment of tariffs. But who holds the goods - Customs, the USPS, whomever - isn't the point. Us buyers WILL end up paying some tariff on kits eventually. Basically, models are now on the tariff list - they are "toys", and toys are on the current list.

The sad part is that local hobby wholesalers and retailers are caught - and stuff going by the crate to distributors will get a tariff charged. And this will pass to the retailers, who need to pass it on to you. So, EXPECT kits made in China to go UP in price. And expect more brick-n-mortar hobby stores to fold.

Tariffs are NEVER good for retailers, nor for buyers / consumers. The result is always that prices go UP. This have been borne out in every case throughout history. In the case of the plastic model hobby, tariffs will simply raise our costs.

For ALL models and related, likely. Retailers will try to restrain the 25% increase being levied on Chinese goods - which will become much less viable in their stores if raised the mandated 25% - by raising other goods in price to cover their tariff outlay while NOT raising prices the whole 25% on the ever-so-popular Chinese kits. NOBODY wins. Unless you can afford the hikes and don't mind paying more, your buying will be reduced. Means that the LHS will make fewer sales on average. NOBODY WINS.

The tariffs are allegedly aimed at pressuring China to change some aspects of how it does business with us. I can't fault the WH for trying to fix some of these standing issues. But tariffs are not actually the seeming best tool to push this quest along. What IS GUARANTEED is that all lower and middle (economic) class Americans will simply suffer some price inflation - and because many of the basic consumer goods in America are Chinese... this impact could be quite substantial.

May I suggest that each of us / you try actually figuring out what YOUR cost will be from this game? EVERY Chinese good that you will buy is likely to go up 25% in price (or other, non-Chinese goods will go up some so that stores can keep price-hikes on Chinese goods down some). Some of you likely buy a fair amount of made-in-China stuff on a week-to-week or monthly basis. So figure it out! And then, once YOU can estimate the cost... Ask yourself whether that cost or lost buying-power was worth whatever YOU think that we will actually "win" from this tiff.

No. The tariffs won't likely get YOU a new job with more pay. YES, it may drive some stores out of business. YES, it WILL impact your stock portfolio and IRA investments.

And YES, expect our hobby to get more expensive!

Cheers! Bob

---

Wow Bob you must need to buy new models like some of us buy milk, bread and tater chips.

First off, I can retire with the kits I have now. If you need a couple let me know, I’ll let them go cheaper than the Chicoms.

Retailers always have the option of not stocking Chinese made goods. If any brick and mortar closes due the the tariffs, they had other issues entirely unrelated to importing model kits.

Nobody is arguing that a trade war is a good thing, but nothing China makes can’t be got anywhere else, and likely of better quality. So if I have to pay $5 more for sheet rock that isn’t laced with poison, I think I’ll handle that. I think most Americans will bite the bullet once they realize - if the hyperbole dissipates - that China has robbed us blind for years. Pocketed our politicians and CEOs and stolen everything that hasn’t been nailed down since Nixon visited Beijing.

Fact of the matter is this economy is roaring and this trade war isn’t going to stop that. If we lose a Walmart or three... life goes on. Same as it did when Walmart put dozens of other retailers out of business.

This tariff situation is not about punishing the Chicoms, it to try and stem their punishment of our economy. Trump is asking for nothing from them that our other trade partners don’t already give - without manipulating their currency everyday.

Sorry Bob, but your hyperbole is more whiny and moaning. Your TDS is showing.

---

Wow, Kip! Boy, did you come out sounding like someone somehow dissed you or spat in your drink! Calm, friend! This thread is about what folks THINK may happen in or to our hobby regarding the tariffs imposed on Chinese goods. I's NOT the forum for attacking others because you happen to disagree with what they said.

Let's see... What, exactly, do YOU find at all "hyperbolic" in what I said? Do you, for instance, not believe that tariffs will raise prices for Chinese-made goods here in the US? Ask Walmart. They already raised their alarm about this (check out their commentary in the news today and read a few financially-oriented commentaries on this subject). It's a given that prices WILL GO UP. NOT any sort of hyperbole, friend, just cold fact.

Do YOU not believe that hobby stores / retailers in the US, currently HUGELY based on selling CHINESE stuff, won't be impacted? Not hyperbole. Just plain fact.

Do YOU believe that the lower and middle-class folks in the US won't actually simply PAY MORE for the stuff that they buy due to these tariffs? Not hyperbole. Just plain fact. No way to AVOID THIS, friend.

Do YOU believe that tariffs are actually somehow GOOD for retailers who are trying to sell those tariff-laden goods?

If YOU think any of these questions or concepts are "hyperbolic", perhaps, instead of attacking someone and shrilling about your "understanding" of the reasoning politicians behind the tariffs and trade-war follow, YOU might offer some half-cogent rebuttal to any or all of these actual stated points.

I personally don't require anyone, not even a rather shrill and empty-headed, ignorant-sounding Trump-defender such as you sell yourself to be, agree with anything I might say.

I DO, however, expect a modicum of polite CIVILITY, friend. To do anything else - such as you have already done - is to make yourself sound pretty darned ignorant and stupid. And certainly intolerant of other's view-points.

Let me end with address of your "points":

1) No, friend, I neither buy much nor NEED ANY MORE model stuff. My stash is pretty replete. And I don't worry about the cost of either kits or sheet-rock.

2) No, the "economy" is NOT "roaring along". Don't begin to say that as if it were some clearly-demonstrated "fact". It is NOT. It is YOUR OPINION that it may be doing so. Other, rather knowledgeable folks are much less sanguine about the current and future state of the US economy. Try saying that your OPINION is exactly that; YOUR OPINION. And nothing more. To do so might encourage others to respect you and your opinion. My OPINION is that "protectionism" in the market-place is, at best, a deceit and a rip-off perpetrated by politicians to benefit a few of their friends at the cost of many. Nothing lofty nor noble about starting trade-wars.

3) There are plenty of modelers who actually WANT those kits and AM stuff made in China. Chinese kits dominate the US model hobby. (They assuredly dominate my stash!) To suggest that those buyers can or should simply switch to other kits of OTHER SUBJECTS from other sources is, at best, callous and incredibly naive. Maybe you are one of those who tell less-wealthy folks in grocery stores to simply go buy other, cheaper foods AND BE HAPPY WITH YOUR OPTIONS when they are priced out of all the "good stuff"!

4) Contrary to your disrespectful assertions, I am in no way "whining" or "moaning". To point out what will likely happen in the given scenario is NEVER remotely "whining and moaning". It is stating what I THINK is likely to happen. Don't like what I say? Just say so and skip the ad-hominem crap. It makes you sound distinctly un-intelligent, friend.

Frankly, Kip, you sound like you have swallowed something rotten. Just spit it up and go drink some water, friend. A friendly piece of advice: Skip the angry bluster and defensive BS. If YOU think retailers won't be impacted, buyers won't be impacted, etc., just SAY SO, and skip the personal attacks. Friend.

Cheers! Bob

---

Hi Bob,

I’m not really your friend. More hyperbole.

Bob, I’m not the one who took a tariff conversation and turned it into a quivering example of Trump Derangement Syndrome. You have that one all to yourself.

TDS is a product of lack of maturity and cerebral development. Medulla oblongatta, if you will. Your postings since that unfortunate burp, indicate you may actually use your cognitive abilities to great degree more than when your tds became apparent.

While I adopt a wait and see attitude with every leader this country elects, it is readily apparent patience and curiosity are dead in a sizable chunk of the US population. Yes, I voted for Trump. The alternative was simply too horrible to contemplate. While never a trump fan for most of my life, the results of the first 2 years have been to my liking.

But that is as it may be.

Firstly, the state of the economy is not my opinion. Sans the deficit, every economic indicator the government uses is moving in the right direction - up. Not my opinion - fact. I have deep concerns regarding the deficit. Trump has yet to indicate his economic conservatism in that regard.

But Bob , if you read your constitution, you’ll see that’s Congress’ bailiwick. They have other issues right now apparently, and doing the country’s business isn’t one of them.

In this country, retailers have the option, well its more like responsibility, to obtain the least expensive, best quality items for resale to their customers. If Chinese items become too expensive, then other manufacturers will move in to fill that void. It’s called the free market. It works. Try it.

Yes, the price may go up. So would I pay a few dollars more for a better quality item not made in a repressive, pollution-spewing communist enclave? Yep. Wouldn’t think twice about it. Consider it my down payment on a better world.

Would I pay more to make sure the Chicoms could not play on the world stage until they stopped manipulating their currency? Yep, again.

Would I pay more to have every sovereign nation’s intellectual property secure from the Chicoms constant theft? Dang, yes again.

Now it just so happens that the only world leader at this time even giving lip service to those goals is sitting in our White House. Whether you like him or not is immaterial.

The Chicoms transgressions are no secret. They announce them - nay take in them - every day. So if a retailer knowingly gets in bed with that hot mess, then they have a responsibility to their stockholders to do what is necessary to secure their profits.

Vis a vis Walmart did not exist when I was born. The Walmart’s of the world come and go all the time. It’s the free market. There is already a better idea out there that is waiting for implimentation.

China’s goal - as stated themselves - has never been to be the worlds trade partner. It has always been to dominate the world. By any means necessary.

Yeah Bob, I swallowed something alright - 50 plus years of watching my government and business leaders force China down our throats. They did so, at the expense of our native industries and jobs. The Chicoms greased their palms, bent them over and had their way with them. Our leaders, business and political, decided the Chinese market was so important, they waived the rules of commerce and decency for a couple of bucks.

Oddly I’m not seeing that now. You tell me why.

If the Chinese really want to play capitalism why not give them a healthy dose? Throughout the years, I’ve watched other countries try to out-business the US. All failed. Why?

Well Bob, a good idea is still a good idea, no matter where it originates. Tariffs may cause issues both long and short term. Nobody is arguing that - on a level playing field - they are counter productive. This is not a level playing field. It hasn’t been for decades.

So yeah I’ll spit out that foul morsel when China joins the table as an equal trade partner. And TDS’rs such as yourself can cogently assess the world around them without sky screaming.

And no. You aren’t my friend. Nice try.

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Yes, and China remembers. That is why this arm twisting won't be productive. We are the ones who forget the lessons of the past, not the Chinese.

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You said that right, TopS.

The "WEST" established the "rules" (whatever we say goes, might makes us right, hey! Deceit WORKS!, if we can get away with it, it's fine (for us) and more fool YOU! Hey! What's your's is MINE! Lying and cheating and swindling and doing the ol' shell-game are all legit business practices, pal! Buy our crap and give us your gold - or else! Oh, "rule of (our) law" is GREAT!) for relating to China a long time ago.

The Chinese haven't forgotten the dark history of their sad relationship with the West. We, however, HAVE. America and us Americans are world-famous for our apparent short and fog-filled memories regarding both our past dealings with other lands and peoples and our "do as I say - not as I do or have done" attitude.

PS: TopS: The ANSWERS to your thread-originating questions are, I think, pretty evident - despite the tangential and strident forays into politics and attempts to rationalize and justify the "cause" and "value" (if any) of trade-wars and tariffs in international trade by some:

Application of tariffs WILL occur (albeit applied perhaps less-than-evenly and consistently), tariffs WILL cause kit and other Chinese-made hobby-product prices to rise here in the USA, for both retailers and individual buyers / consumers, many retailers WILL BE severely impacted as their sales drop on currently-important components of their business, and our hobby WILL get more expensive. The monetary and cost effects of tariffs on our hobby are all pretty predictable and straight-forward, I think!

Cheers! Bob

Yes, and China remembers. That is why this arm twisting won't be productive. We are the ones who forget the lessons of the past, not the Chinese.

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Yes, and China remembers. That is why this arm twisting won't be productive. We are the ones who forget the lessons of the past, not the Chinese.

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China remembers what?

The Boxer Rebellion was a dynastic war started by the emperor.

This group of Chicom thugs are the children of Mao. Remember? He purged all that history for the people. It’s amazing that the West simply refuses to understand with whom they are dealing.

Do you think real Chinese history is taught in Mao’s classrooms and re-education camps? Seriously?

Lol omigod western civilization is truly doomed.

We don’t forget history, we move on in spite of it and make more of it.

Historically, arm twisting does work. Just depends on how hard and how long you twist. Remember the USSR? Twisted them right off the planet.

C’mon guys get a grip. 1880’s colonialism does not affect policy in 2019 in Beijing.

TDS is a product of lack of maturity and cerebral development. Medulla oblongatta, if you will.

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Yes, and China remembers. That is why this arm twisting won't be productive. We are the ones who forget the lessons of the past, not the Chinese.

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China remembers what?

The Boxer Rebellion was a dynastic war started by the emperor.

This group of Chicom thugs are the children of Mao. Remember? He purged all that history for the people. It’s amazing that the West simply refuses to understand with whom they are dealing.

Do you think real Chinese history is taught in Mao’s classrooms and re-education camps? Seriously?

Lol omigod western civilization is truly doomed.

We don’t forget history, we move on in spite of it and make more of it.

Historically, arm twisting does work. Just depends on how hard and how long you twist. Remember the USSR? Twisted them right off the planet.

C’mon guys get a grip. 1880’s colonialism does not affect policy in 2019 in Beijing.

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Yes, and China remembers. That is why this arm twisting won't be productive. We are the ones who forget the lessons of the past, not the Chinese.

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China remembers what?

The Boxer Rebellion was a dynastic war started by the emperor.

This group of Chicom thugs are the children of Mao. Remember? He purged all that history for the people. It’s amazing that the West simply refuses to understand with whom they are dealing.

Do you think real Chinese history is taught in Mao’s classrooms and re-education camps? Seriously?

Lol omigod western civilization is truly doomed.

We don’t forget history, we move on in spite of it and make more of it.

Historically, arm twisting does work. Just depends on how hard and how long you twist. Remember the USSR? Twisted them right off the planet.

C’mon guys get a grip. 1880’s colonialism does not affect policy in 2019 in Beijing.

---

Obviously you don't pay attention to Chinese language media and recent school curricula.

And you don't even know when the Boxer Rebellion was let alone the Opium Wars.

Wise in many things but not what the Chinese are doing now with their history.

Cheers! Bob

So yeah I’ll spit out that foul morsel when China joins the table as an equal trade partner. And TDS’rs such as yourself can cogently assess the world around them without sky screaming.

And no. You aren’t my friend. Nice try.