No
Dan
Armor/AFV
For discussions on tanks, artillery, jeeps, etc.
For discussions on tanks, artillery, jeeps, etc.
Hosted by Darren Baker, Mario Matijasic
Worth purchasing this Sherman?
panamadan
Joined: July 20, 2004
KitMaker: 1,513 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, June 11, 2019 - 12:45 AM UTC
Bravo1102
Joined: December 08, 2003
KitMaker: 2,864 posts
Armorama: 2,497 posts
Posted: Saturday, June 15, 2019 - 09:55 PM UTC
Quoted Text
No
Dan
All those negative waves. Can't you say something righteous?
Go back in your hole.
bill_c
Campaigns AdministratorJoined: January 09, 2008
KitMaker: 10,553 posts
Armorama: 8,109 posts
Posted: Sunday, June 16, 2019 - 04:46 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextNo
Dan
All those negative waves. Can't you say something righteous?
Go back in your hole.
I'm in there with him. Life is too short to suffer [auto-censored]ty kits.
Bravo1102
Joined: December 08, 2003
KitMaker: 2,864 posts
Armorama: 2,497 posts
Posted: Sunday, June 16, 2019 - 10:02 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextQuoted TextNo
Dan
All those negative waves. Can't you say something righteous?
Go back in your hole.
I'm in there with him. Life is too short to suffer [auto-censored]ty kits.
Who suffers? I certainly don't.
That you suffer, you should seek help to ease that suffering rather than denigrate the choices and preferences of others.
Enjoy your hole while I delight in the sunshine.
M4A1Sherman
Joined: May 02, 2013
KitMaker: 4,403 posts
Armorama: 4,078 posts
Posted: Monday, June 17, 2019 - 12:25 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextQuoted TextQuoted TextNo
Dan
All those negative waves. Can't you say something righteous?
Go back in your hole.
I'm in there with him. Life is too short to suffer [auto-censored]ty kits.
Who suffers? I certainly don't.
That you suffer, you should seek help to ease that suffering rather than denigrate the choices and preferences of others.
Enjoy your hole while I delight in the sunshine.
Where I live, the sun only comes out for a few minutes at sunset. Otherwise, it rains all of the time for a space of about 3 months. Then, WINTER starts all over again...
Steve is in favor of the ITALERI Sherman kits. THAT is entirely his prerogative. I'm not satisfied with ANY of the M4A1 76mm (Wet) kits that are out there AT THE PRESENT TIME. ASUKA's upcoming kit of same may prove to be better all around, but I will "improve" my copy once I get it in my grubby little paws...
bill_c
Campaigns AdministratorJoined: January 09, 2008
KitMaker: 10,553 posts
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Posted: Monday, June 17, 2019 - 04:17 AM UTC
If Stephen is happy with his choices, that's great. I am much more tolerant of him than he appears to be of me. But the gentleman asked if these older kits were "worth it," and the general consensus so far seems to be "no."
And railing against those of us who subscribe to the motto "life is too short to put up with [auto-censored]ty models" isn't going to convince anyone, Stephen.
And railing against those of us who subscribe to the motto "life is too short to put up with [auto-censored]ty models" isn't going to convince anyone, Stephen.
Bravo1102
Joined: December 08, 2003
KitMaker: 2,864 posts
Armorama: 2,497 posts
Posted: Monday, June 17, 2019 - 06:01 AM UTC
Quoted Text
If Stephen is happy with his choices, that's great. I am much more tolerant of him than he appears to be of me. But the gentleman asked if these older kits were "worth it," and the general consensus so far seems to be "no."
And railing against those of us who subscribe to the motto "life is too short to put up with [auto-censored]ty models"
isn't going to convince anyone, Stephen.
My Sarcasm didn't translate well.
To each his own, but there's something about those s**t kits I find comforting even enlightening, that I don't find in the newer, stupor munde kits.
I think it's the blurred vision from my last retina repair. After being out smarted by a "Smart kit" I decided to swear off complex builds.
I can manage them, but find I really don't want to. So I find solace in working on
kits that others disdain. even despise.
And I find it enlightening.
(Insert maniacal laughter here)
bill_c
Campaigns AdministratorJoined: January 09, 2008
KitMaker: 10,553 posts
Armorama: 8,109 posts
Posted: Monday, June 17, 2019 - 08:02 AM UTC
Quoted Text
... there's something about those s**t kits I find comforting even enlightening, that I don't find in the newer, stupor munde kits.... I find solace in working on kits that others disdain. even despise.
And I find it enlightening.
Please consider a Build Feature here of one of those kits. I'm sure there are many here who would enjoy seeing you breathe new life into these old dogs. I honestly respect modelers who can spin straw into gold, and I've seen it often enough to know, while that's not me, it's still worth celebrating. I'm serious, let's see a Feature on one of these old war horses.
Sabot
Joined: December 18, 2001
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
Posted: Wednesday, June 19, 2019 - 05:50 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted Text... there's something about those s**t kits I find comforting even enlightening, that I don't find in the newer, stupor munde kits.... I find solace in working on kits that others disdain. even despise.
And I find it enlightening.
Please consider a Build Feature here of one of those kits. I'm sure there are many here who would enjoy seeing you breathe new life into these old dogs. I honestly respect modelers who can spin straw into gold, and I've seen it often enough to know, while that's not me, it's still worth celebrating. I'm serious, let's see a Feature on one of these old war horses.
I see both sides of the coin. Many of these old dogs costs as much as a new tooled kit when reissued, so in that regard, it really isn't "worth" it to buy the old ones in new boxes. But if you already have the old kit, you know you can't sell it for what you paid for it because there will be many better kits available at a comparable price.
So you might as well build it, or likewise if you find the old dog in the clearance bin for $10 or less. Not much money spent there if you build it OOB. Although, I often see someone with a bargain basement kit, but want to know if there are aftermarket items to bring the kit up to standard. There often is, but those items can run the cost of the project to well beyond what a top level kit costs.
Now when that happens, it makes the $10 old dog, plus $30 track set, $10 barrel, $15 PE set a challenging $65 project, but a very best kit of that subject goes for under $50 and is a dream to build.
But to each his own. One prefers the shake and bake of the Tamiya M4A1, someone else likes to tackle the old Italeri kit, and a third prefers to wait for an Asuka M4A1 76.
I often compare this to yard work; you like to use a push mower and edge with a manual edger; I use a riding mower and use a string trimmer; and another guy hires a landscaping company. None of us is doing it wrong, just differently.
18Bravo
Joined: January 20, 2005
KitMaker: 7,219 posts
Armorama: 6,097 posts
Posted: Thursday, June 20, 2019 - 01:18 PM UTC
Wabi-sabi. Some folks get it, some folks don't.
Shermania
Joined: January 30, 2013
KitMaker: 537 posts
Armorama: 531 posts
Posted: Thursday, June 20, 2019 - 02:00 PM UTC
Quoted Text
https://www.italeri.com/en/prodotto/2820
It shows a Sherman with US tank riders, but is it not just a several decades old model?
Scalemates says the initial release of the italeri M4A1 is 1967
Several decades is a nice way of putting it, the kit is some 52 years old. All I gotta say about that is, compared to much of what was coming out then it’s pretty amazing how well the kit still holds up today.
Personally for me, It’s not worth buying this unless you want the figures and decals. Maybe you want the hull for some other project, the turret is not so good and the hull is a like 2mm too long but it’s not very noticeable. The wheel are bad option for the later large hatch. There is a long list of issues with the model that have been covered before.
If I were you, I’d spend the extra money (might not be much more) and buy the new tooled asuka instead
nsjohn
Joined: July 26, 2018
KitMaker: 279 posts
Armorama: 265 posts
Posted: Thursday, June 20, 2019 - 02:09 PM UTC
I think scalemates says the initial release was 1977
Shermania
Joined: January 30, 2013
KitMaker: 537 posts
Armorama: 531 posts
Posted: Thursday, June 20, 2019 - 02:25 PM UTC
Quoted Text
I think scalemates says the initial release was 1977
You’re correct, I must’ve miss remembered it on a previous reading. So my bad, it’s only 42 years old
Paulinsibculo
Joined: July 01, 2010
KitMaker: 1,322 posts
Armorama: 1,239 posts
Posted: Thursday, June 20, 2019 - 08:48 PM UTC
Well, quite an interesting reaction to, what I thought, was a simple question.
The reason was the fact that this model was build during the awaking hours of my modeling activities, some 40 years ago.
I was expecting a 'revised' version of this model and since Revell is rather easy to purchase in The Netherlands (saving waiting times for mail deliveries, credit card payments in advance etc.) and it would have been a nice reason to drop in in my local hobby shop, I just wanted to avoid disappointment and frustration.
Now I learned that there are much better models for even less or equal money with more accuracy and parts than this one.
Thus: I leave Revell's Sherman on the shelf and go for another supplier.
Thanks to you all for helping me.
And in case Revell Sales Department is reading this: why than such an old and inaccurate model revived again for such high selling prices????
Because economically the molds are written off years (if not decades) ago and you could have sold it for much less, making it possible for beginning (young) modelers to buy it from their low budget and have fun.
The reason was the fact that this model was build during the awaking hours of my modeling activities, some 40 years ago.
I was expecting a 'revised' version of this model and since Revell is rather easy to purchase in The Netherlands (saving waiting times for mail deliveries, credit card payments in advance etc.) and it would have been a nice reason to drop in in my local hobby shop, I just wanted to avoid disappointment and frustration.
Now I learned that there are much better models for even less or equal money with more accuracy and parts than this one.
Thus: I leave Revell's Sherman on the shelf and go for another supplier.
Thanks to you all for helping me.
And in case Revell Sales Department is reading this: why than such an old and inaccurate model revived again for such high selling prices????
Because economically the molds are written off years (if not decades) ago and you could have sold it for much less, making it possible for beginning (young) modelers to buy it from their low budget and have fun.
M4A1Sherman
Joined: May 02, 2013
KitMaker: 4,403 posts
Armorama: 4,078 posts
Posted: Friday, June 21, 2019 - 12:04 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextTo each his own, but FYI the Asuka Shermans run around $53 which is $10 more than the Italeri "Fury" kit. That's not too many meals of ramen.
$10 ramen is a whole week.
Besides I got "Fury" for less than $30 and have never seen a Taska/Asuka kit that cheap.
On a general basis of comparison, I rate Sherman kits:
Tamiya, Italeri, Academy, Dragon Tasca/Asuka
Tasca/Asuka are definitive, they know it and cost accordingly.
All the others I can find deals on and even have a few Tamiya kits to soak up all the spares left over from Dragon and Academy kits. I built three E8 Shermans, one each from Academy, Italeri and Dragon and have enough parts to add all the periscopes and turret mg storage clips to four other kits.
My drivers can see with the hatch closed!
(Photoetch no longer being an option)
Yes, I'll agree that the TASCA/ASUKA Shermans are the current "Top-Shelf" kits, but the I'm pretty certain that the MENG and RYE FIELD Shermans will probably eclipse the "T/A" kits pretty shortly. Prices seem to be at the very least, competitive or BETTER than what "T/A"-dealers are getting for theirs. Hopefully, we will see the "earlier" Sherman-types being marketed by MENG and RYE FIELD...
M4A1Sherman
Joined: May 02, 2013
KitMaker: 4,403 posts
Armorama: 4,078 posts
Posted: Friday, June 21, 2019 - 01:19 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted Text... there's something about those s**t kits I find comforting even enlightening, that I don't find in the newer, stupor munde kits.... I find solace in working on kits that others disdain. even despise.
And I find it enlightening.
Please consider a Build Feature here of one of those kits. I'm sure there are many here who would enjoy seeing you breathe new life into these old dogs. I honestly respect modelers who can spin straw into gold, and I've seen it often enough to know, while that's not me, it's still worth celebrating. I'm serious, let's see a Feature on one of these old war horses.
Speaking of "spinning straw into gold", to borrow Bill's very appropriate phrase, I wish I had had the foresight to take pictures of my "post D-Day/Normandy, Battle of the Hedgerows" M4A1 75mm (Dry)- I built this one back in the 1990s, prior to all of the great Sherman kits, resin conversions & updates/backdates, resin "goodies", (TIGER MODELS, FORMATIONS, etc), and PE sets that we are able to make use of and enjoy, today.
I started out with the old, "semi-venerable" TAMIYA 35190 M4 kit and I extensively re-worked an old NICHIMO M4A1 "Small Hatch" (Dry) Upper Hull with "Sponson Fillers", etc, in order to fit the TAMIYA M4 Lower Hull. I tried the ITALERI/TESTORS Lower Hull at first, simply because I felt that the ITALERI Lower Hull would have been a better choice because of the actually not bad Suspension components Wheels, etc. I decided on the TAMIYA Lower Hull instead, only because of a slightly better fit in mating up to the NICHIMO Upper Hull. Then, I had to finagle all of the ITALERI Suspension components into fitting the TAMIYA Lower Hull... (sigh) Luckily, the TAMIYA M4 75mm (Dry) Turret turned out to be a "drop-fit" into the NICHIMO Upper Hull. I wound up using the TAMIYA kit-supplied plastic Barrel because I couldn't get a metal one at the time. I believe it was TOM's MODEL WORKS (?), that supplied me with a strip of brass "rifling" for the Main Gun Tube. Replacement .30 cal M1919 MG Barrels came by way of VERLINDEN. In the meantime, I had discovered ABER's EXCELLENT M4/M4A1/M4A3 PE set SOMEWHERE and I mail-orered it, forthwith. WOW!!! This set even included the little link-chains for my build's Armored Fuel Inlet Covers, separate Periscope Covers and the link-chain for the Tow Hitch, plus a veritable myriad of other goodies such as Front & Rear Fenders and the segmented Mud Guard Attachment Strips that I didn't have to make out of styrene strip, now!!! I had attained (or so I thought at the time), SHERMAN NIRVANA... I STILL think that the ABER Sherman PE set is a "top-shelf" set. Their M8/M20 PE set is THE BEST, and that goes for their CCKW353, JEEP, Initial TIGER I and CROMWELL/CENTAUR PE sets, as well... I added my own "Supplemental Armor" plates, made out of styrene sheet, and I tried to make my project-"Reman"-Sherman as accurate as possible, given the limited reference material that I had on hand at the time.
Painting and weathering was done by way of Dennis' own methodology and the late, GREAT Shep Paine's techniques, which are still very viable to this day... My sole reference material was the FIRST and now long out of print MMIR "SHERMAN- Guide to Modeling the US M4-series Medium Tank" book and the FIRST Squadron/Signal "SHERMAN in action" book... No Hunnicut Sherman book- I didn't even know that such a thing existed, at the time...
This M4A1 75mm (Dry) kit-bash took me quite a while to complete, but it was worth the effort. I used AFV CLUB's T51 Track set, with all of its frustrating assembly and "clean-up" foibles. N-E-V-E-R AGAIN! I obtained my Crew figures and "Stowage" from the now long-defunct VLS hobby outlet, all by "snail-mail"- WARRIORS, CUSTOM DIORAMICS, VERLINDEN, etc...
So, I just thought I'd share a little bit with you guys; one really DOESN'T need the most up-to-date model kit to complete a highly-detailed and accurate representation of any given modeling subject- But it DOES HELP if you have an up-to-date, accurate kit to begin with...
Bravo1102
Joined: December 08, 2003
KitMaker: 2,864 posts
Armorama: 2,497 posts
Posted: Friday, June 21, 2019 - 04:41 AM UTC
Dennis, I still have the Normandy 1944 M4A1 I built in the 1980s. The Tamiya M4 wasn't out yet so I sealed up the hatch and went with that until there was a suitable turret out there. I actually considered using the Nichimo one but couldn't get it to fit. I later put the Verlinden low bustle with applique armor turret on it.
It was an Italeri hull with the first AEF design M4A1 dry hull with On The Mark photoetch because that was all there was. The tank riders were converted Tamiya and Italeri figures. Prehistoric.
I also went all out for a Cobra M4A1 76 with the Italeri kit in 1994 for the Fiftieth Anniversary display at the Intrepid museum. This was back when the camouflage was believed to be brown not black.
It was an Italeri hull with the first AEF design M4A1 dry hull with On The Mark photoetch because that was all there was. The tank riders were converted Tamiya and Italeri figures. Prehistoric.
I also went all out for a Cobra M4A1 76 with the Italeri kit in 1994 for the Fiftieth Anniversary display at the Intrepid museum. This was back when the camouflage was believed to be brown not black.
lucer105
Joined: March 07, 2008
KitMaker: 189 posts
Armorama: 188 posts
Posted: Sunday, June 23, 2019 - 02:21 AM UTC
Which company made those tank riders? Thanks!
Bravo1102
Joined: December 08, 2003
KitMaker: 2,864 posts
Armorama: 2,497 posts
Posted: Sunday, June 23, 2019 - 04:51 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Which company made those tank riders? Thanks!
Masterbox.
M4A1Sherman
Joined: May 02, 2013
KitMaker: 4,403 posts
Armorama: 4,078 posts
Posted: Sunday, June 23, 2019 - 05:00 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Dennis, I still have the Normandy 1944 M4A1 I built in the 1980s. The Tamiya M4 wasn't out yet so I sealed up the hatch and went with that until there was a suitable turret out there. I actually considered using the Nichimo one but couldn't get it to fit. I later put the Verlinden low bustle with applique armor turret on it.
It was an Italeri hull with the first AEF design M4A1 dry hull with On The Mark photoetch because that was all there was. The tank riders were converted Tamiya and Italeri figures. Prehistoric.
I also went all out for a Cobra M4A1 76 with the Italeri kit in 1994 for the Fiftieth Anniversary display at the Intrepid museum. This was back when the camouflage was believed to be brown not black.
Hey, Steve
Yeah, I remember that "Brown-overlay Camo" on top of the OD which turned out to be Black- I never DID go for the Brown, simply because I didn't think that Brown was DARK enough. Judging from the black & white photos, before color photos were actually unearthed, "Brown" just didn't look "right" to me, so I just stuck to plain ol' "every-day vanilla OD", which could probably have been just as wrong as using Brown...
In any case, I pored over dozens of photos of US "Re-man" Shermans that were purported to be "Post D-Day/Normandy Hedgerow-Fighting" pics before I actually went ahead and airbrushed my M4A1 with a base coat. I like to use very-darkened TESTORS Model Master II FS34086 Green Drab Enamel, which is darker than the TESTORS MM II ANA-610(?)-Type OD to begin with. After that, I post-shaded with straight FS34086. I only use the lighter ANA610(?) OD shades to "modulate" and "post-shade" over FS34086, which I then follow up by adding a bit of Dunkelgelb to my "light" OD mixes for "highlighting" the higher "sun-lit" areas of my US OD subject-matter. Works for me...I never use straight "Flat White" for WWII US Tank Interiors and Vehicle-markings as many kit instructions suggest. I like to mix my own blend of Semi-gloss White, Flat White (about 2 parts Flat, 1 part Semi-gloss), and just a hint (a loaded medium-size brush-full) of OD added to "tone it down" to an "Off-White", which will give me slightly-grubby White color. Plain old White, in my opinion, is just too bright... I still "highlight" certain raised details by dry-brushing with my lightest mix of OD, and depending on what's getting highlighted, that's topped off with No.1 pencil graphite, or Aluminum, Steel, Burnt-Metal, etc paint. I like to make a lot of use of my Artists' Chalk Pastels, which I a lot of times prefer to use instead of those expensive rip-off Weathering Powders. Of course, I've left out a lot of steps; sealing coats, masked-off gloss-coats for decals and or dry-transfers, etc, etc. Ditto goes for my 1/48 aircraft, only I have to be a little bit more painstaking in my efforts due to "scale", and the comparative "cleanliness" of aircraft as opposed to "ground-based" military hardware...
As the late, Great Shep Paine used to say,
"Aircraft merely get dirty; Armor gets filthy"...
panamadan
Joined: July 20, 2004
KitMaker: 1,513 posts
Armorama: 1,449 posts
Posted: Sunday, June 23, 2019 - 06:38 AM UTC
[auto-censored] you Stephen.
A option was asked and I gave it.
Why is it negative?
With people like you it’s no wonder web sites like this one even survive.
Dan
A option was asked and I gave it.
Why is it negative?
With people like you it’s no wonder web sites like this one even survive.
Dan
alanmac
Joined: February 25, 2007
KitMaker: 3,033 posts
Armorama: 2,953 posts
Posted: Sunday, June 23, 2019 - 08:54 AM UTC
Quoted Text
[auto-censored] you Stephen.
A option was asked and I gave it.
Why is it negative?
With people like you it’s no wonder web sites like this one even survive.
Dan
Dan, I guess you are not familiar with the Donald Sutherland character in Kelly's Heroes, which Stephen was quoting. With that film in mind you'd realise Stephen was not being rude, but you clearly didn't. Shame.
Bravo1102
Joined: December 08, 2003
KitMaker: 2,864 posts
Armorama: 2,497 posts
Posted: Sunday, June 23, 2019 - 10:39 AM UTC
Quoted Text
[auto-censored] you Stephen.
A option was asked and I gave it.
Why is it negative?
With people like you it’s no wonder web sites like this one even survive.
Dan
F*** you really? That your reaction to offering an actual considered response as opposed to an offhand "no"?
No warrant or reason just "no" which implies that you consider it beneath you and that you're smarter and better than everyone else and it was a stupid question.
And then so many pile on with their awe at the modern kits and they'd never sully their hands with anything less.
So much better than the rest of us. One step closer to giving up this exercise in despair and frustration called a hobby.
Don't blame others for your own failings.
lucer105
Joined: March 07, 2008
KitMaker: 189 posts
Armorama: 188 posts
Posted: Wednesday, June 26, 2019 - 07:22 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextWhich company made those tank riders? Thanks!
Masterbox.
Thank you!
M4A1Sherman
Joined: May 02, 2013
KitMaker: 4,403 posts
Armorama: 4,078 posts
Posted: Wednesday, June 26, 2019 - 08:02 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted Text[auto-censored] you Stephen.
A option was asked and I gave it.
Why is it negative?
With people like you it’s no wonder web sites like this one even survive.
Dan
F*** you really? That your reaction to offering an actual considered response as opposed to an offhand "no"?
No warrant or reason just "no" which implies that you consider it beneath you and that you're smarter and better than everyone else and it was a stupid question.
And then so many pile on with their awe at the modern kits and they'd never sully their hands with anything less.
So much better than the rest of us. One step closer to giving up this exercise in despair and frustration called a hobby.
Don't blame others for your own failings.
WHAT IS THIS, TWITTER???
Steve, Dan- Wow! You guys sound like another individual (who shall remain nameless, only to keep the peace), and myself when we were "feuding" some months ago...
Maybe I have a warped sense of humor, but I actually chuckled over Dan's "No", and yet, I find that Steve also brings up the question of simple courtesy in answering a fellow-modeler and human being's query regarding a certain model kit. And no, I'm not trying to be a "Pollyanna", so let's all just "play nice" and get back to the subject at hand...
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