Armor/AFV
For discussions on tanks, artillery, jeeps, etc.
Cromwell Wittmann Victim to be
jrutman
Visit this Community
Pennsylvania, United States
Joined: April 10, 2011
KitMaker: 7,941 posts
Armorama: 7,934 posts
Posted: Wednesday, July 10, 2019 - 07:26 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Speaking of aftermarket 1/35 6lber barrels with muzzle brake--does anyone make such a thing?



This one is really nice. It's going on my Crommy.



Work of art IMHO
J




Yep that's the one.
J

That's the RB barrel, right?

jrutman
Visit this Community
Pennsylvania, United States
Joined: April 10, 2011
KitMaker: 7,941 posts
Armorama: 7,934 posts
Posted: Wednesday, July 10, 2019 - 07:28 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Speaking of aftermarket 1/35 6lber barrels with muzzle brake--does anyone make such a thing?



This one is really nice. It's going on my Crommy.



Work of art IMHO
J



RB makes it. Sorry,I forgot to add that important tidbit.
Alum barrel with a three part brass brake. Impressive.
J

I just got a Bronco Valentine IX crying out for that, who makes it?

jrutman
Visit this Community
Pennsylvania, United States
Joined: April 10, 2011
KitMaker: 7,941 posts
Armorama: 7,934 posts
Posted: Wednesday, July 10, 2019 - 07:29 AM UTC
Nice progress Darren,
I used the Fruils and they went together very well after I got a "system" going.
J
babaoriley
Visit this Community
California, United States
Joined: June 23, 2017
KitMaker: 195 posts
Armorama: 179 posts
Posted: Wednesday, July 10, 2019 - 08:34 AM UTC

Quoted Text


RB makes it. Sorry,I forgot to add that important tidbit.
Alum barrel with a three part brass brake. Impressive.
J



Thanks. RB calls it the 75mm bored-out version, but so far as I know it should look the same as the six-pounder externally, at least in 1/35 scale. There is at least one U.S. source, of course it's out of stock....
phantom_phanatic309
#372
Visit this Community
United Kingdom
Joined: March 10, 2010
KitMaker: 2,568 posts
Armorama: 423 posts
Posted: Wednesday, July 10, 2019 - 08:35 AM UTC
Recently got hold of this kit myself, so will be following with interest. Hope I can pick up some tips to help with mine.
Can't wait to see the finished result.
babaoriley
Visit this Community
California, United States
Joined: June 23, 2017
KitMaker: 195 posts
Armorama: 179 posts
Posted: Wednesday, July 10, 2019 - 08:52 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I have heard that the 75mm gun was a rebored 6 pdr gun, but I would have though that would make the barrel on the thin side.



My understanding is that the point of boring out the six-pounder to 75mm was to get a more effective HE round for use on non-armored targets, something the six-pounder was not good at. Based on photos of the two types of ammunition and the muzzle velocities of the two weapons, it looks like the six-pounder had a much larger propellant charge so presumably it operated at higher pressures. So perhaps it was safe to bore-out the six-pounder as the 75mm ammo used (the same as in early Shermans) generated lower pressures in the chamber/barrel. However the result was less effective when the target was heavily armored, as per the vehicle in this thread which couldn't deal with the thick armor on the Tigers encountered that day.
CMOT
Staff MemberEditor-in-Chief
ARMORAMA
Visit this Community
England - South West, United Kingdom
Joined: May 14, 2006
KitMaker: 10,954 posts
Armorama: 8,571 posts
Posted: Wednesday, July 10, 2019 - 11:10 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

I have heard that the 75mm gun was a rebored 6 pdr gun, but I would have though that would make the barrel on the thin side.



My understanding is that the point of boring out the six-pounder to 75mm was to get a more effective HE round for use on non-armored targets, something the six-pounder was not good at. Based on photos of the two types of ammunition and the muzzle velocities of the two weapons, it looks like the six-pounder had a much larger propellant charge so presumably it operated at higher pressures. So perhaps it was safe to bore-out the six-pounder as the 75mm ammo used (the same as in early Shermans) generated lower pressures in the chamber/barrel. However the result was less effective when the target was heavily armored, as per the vehicle in this thread which couldn't deal with the thick armor on the Tigers encountered that day.



It is my understanding that Wittmann was lucky in that most of the crews were out of their tanks having food and drink. I suspect that if he had attacked when the tanks were manned and running he may have died sooner than he did. He was also lucky in that he past a Cromwell that was running but the gunner was out of the tank, if he had been in then a round in the side of a tiger at close range would given Wittmann a bad day I suspect.

Thank you for the information on the gun. I read that the 75mm was specifically so that HE rounds could be fired as the 6pdr could not fire HE.
CMOT
Staff MemberEditor-in-Chief
ARMORAMA
Visit this Community
England - South West, United Kingdom
Joined: May 14, 2006
KitMaker: 10,954 posts
Armorama: 8,571 posts
Posted: Wednesday, July 10, 2019 - 11:11 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Recently got hold of this kit myself, so will be following with interest. Hope I can pick up some tips to help with mine.
Can't wait to see the finished result.



Glad too have you with us Stephen.
babaoriley
Visit this Community
California, United States
Joined: June 23, 2017
KitMaker: 195 posts
Armorama: 179 posts
Posted: Wednesday, July 10, 2019 - 12:02 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Thank you for the information on the gun. I read that the 75mm was specifically so that HE rounds could be fired as the 6pdr could not fire HE.



The six-pounder had an HE round, but the bursting charge was quite small in comparison to the 75mm so it was less effective. Oddly the U.S. was slow in getting an HE round into production for their version of this gun and had to borrow British stocks of HE. They also never developed an APCR or APDS round and also had to beg/borrow those from Britain, but perhaps that was not so important as the quantity of German armor diminished.
CMOT
Staff MemberEditor-in-Chief
ARMORAMA
Visit this Community
England - South West, United Kingdom
Joined: May 14, 2006
KitMaker: 10,954 posts
Armorama: 8,571 posts
Posted: Wednesday, July 10, 2019 - 11:03 PM UTC
I have got to the point where I need to make a decision and I have gone for the tank below. It is my understanding that this is one of the tanks destroyed by Whittmann prior to entering or after exiting Villers-Bocage. This is really an obvious choice as the decals in the box cover this specific tank and it is my intent to build the model and a small diorama showing the tank and crew as Wittmann comes into view.

Neil_Kirby
Visit this Community
England - South East, United Kingdom
Joined: June 12, 2011
KitMaker: 3 posts
Armorama: 3 posts
Posted: Wednesday, July 10, 2019 - 11:22 PM UTC
If you want to do this one, I think it was burnt out. IIRC that is what is going on in the photo? this is just one of a sequence where they have just lit them up, is that not smoke just starting to come out of both tank turrets?
Regards,

Neil
jrutman
Visit this Community
Pennsylvania, United States
Joined: April 10, 2011
KitMaker: 7,941 posts
Armorama: 7,934 posts
Posted: Thursday, July 11, 2019 - 01:12 AM UTC

Quoted Text

If you want to do this one, I think it was burnt out. IIRC that is what is going on in the photo? this is just one of a sequence where they have just lit them up, is that not smoke just starting to come out of both tank turrets?
Regards,

Neil



Pretty sure this is from a while after the action because the German off to the side is obviously a rear echelon guy(maybe a kriegsB.) and they showed up when the fight was over to document the "great victory". They even video'ed Witmann for the Wochenshau.
J
CMOT
Staff MemberEditor-in-Chief
ARMORAMA
Visit this Community
England - South West, United Kingdom
Joined: May 14, 2006
KitMaker: 10,954 posts
Armorama: 8,571 posts
Posted: Thursday, July 11, 2019 - 03:26 AM UTC
This aspect is not overly important as I intend to represent the point in time that Wittmann arrived and so it gives me options. I would have liked to see a more interesting scene though.

I do suggest that anyone looking to tackle the Cromwell try to find a copy of 'Cromwell Tank Vehicle History and Specifications as well as the Tank craft offering.
jrutman
Visit this Community
Pennsylvania, United States
Joined: April 10, 2011
KitMaker: 7,941 posts
Armorama: 7,934 posts
Posted: Thursday, July 11, 2019 - 04:00 AM UTC

Quoted Text

This aspect is not overly important as I intend to represent the point in time that Wittmann arrived and so it gives me options. I would have liked to see a more interesting scene though.

I do suggest that anyone looking to tackle the Cromwell try to find a copy of 'Cromwell Tank Vehicle History and Specifications as well as the Tank craft offering.



I look forward to how you will portray the hull MG gunner as that hatch is wild and not easy to conform a figure to!
J
petbat
Visit this Community
Queensland, Australia
Joined: August 06, 2005
KitMaker: 3,353 posts
Armorama: 3,121 posts
Posted: Thursday, July 11, 2019 - 08:40 AM UTC
This is a interesting vehicle to depict as you can still see the remnants of the sealer around the gun mantlet, turret bolts, etc, from the landing. It adds a nice feature to grab the attention.
CMOT
Staff MemberEditor-in-Chief
ARMORAMA
Visit this Community
England - South West, United Kingdom
Joined: May 14, 2006
KitMaker: 10,954 posts
Armorama: 8,571 posts
Posted: Friday, July 12, 2019 - 01:13 AM UTC
The front hull plate has been added with both of the driver’s vision port open. There were no issues here as it fitted like a dream.


The broken grab handles at the rear of the deck have been replaced with 0.8mm wire as that looked right.



The MasterClub tracks are finished and look great in my opinion, but that is eight hours I will never get back. The detail is I think especially well rendered and despite my gripes worth the effort.


bill_c
Staff MemberCampaigns Administrator
MODEL SHIPWRIGHTS
Visit this Community
New Jersey, United States
Joined: January 09, 2008
KitMaker: 10,553 posts
Armorama: 8,109 posts
Posted: Friday, July 12, 2019 - 02:00 AM UTC
Looking good, Squire. Keep up the fine progress.
JPTRR
Staff MemberManaging Editor
RAILROAD MODELING
#051
Visit this Community
Tennessee, United States
Joined: December 21, 2002
KitMaker: 7,772 posts
Armorama: 2,447 posts
Posted: Friday, July 12, 2019 - 02:12 AM UTC
Darren,

I will be watching. Always found the Cromwell to be a handsome tank. Villers Bocage is a fascinating engagement.

Kinda wish you chose the scene of the Cromwell stuck on the beach as I'd enjoy watching you scratchbuild a 1/35 LST.
SpeedyJ
Visit this Community
Bangkok, Thailand / ไทย
Joined: September 17, 2013
KitMaker: 1,617 posts
Armorama: 1,150 posts
Posted: Friday, July 12, 2019 - 02:57 AM UTC
Hello Darren. The link below will most likely be very interesting.
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/missinglynx/understanding-villers-bocage-help-needed-t319786.html
The gentlemen are analyzing the situation in which your build plays a big role.

Follow with interest how this will look when finished. Great work so far.

Kind regards,

Robert Jan
CMOT
Staff MemberEditor-in-Chief
ARMORAMA
Visit this Community
England - South West, United Kingdom
Joined: May 14, 2006
KitMaker: 10,954 posts
Armorama: 8,571 posts
Posted: Friday, July 12, 2019 - 04:22 AM UTC
Thank you all for your input and Robert that link made for an interesting read.
SpeedyJ
Visit this Community
Bangkok, Thailand / ไทย
Joined: September 17, 2013
KitMaker: 1,617 posts
Armorama: 1,150 posts
Posted: Friday, July 12, 2019 - 04:35 AM UTC
I guessed you would be interested.
Gets some academic level sometimes, but the info is just great.

Kind regards,

Robert jan
Dioramartin
Visit this Community
New South Wales, Australia
Joined: May 04, 2016
KitMaker: 1,476 posts
Armorama: 1,463 posts
Posted: Saturday, July 13, 2019 - 12:26 AM UTC
Interesting project - whether or not it’s smouldering presumably an AP round took it out, so I’d just arrange some bent bits of scrap plastic painted steel & black inside the hatch(es)
101yann
Visit this Community
Ille-et-Vilaine, France
Joined: February 04, 2006
KitMaker: 97 posts
Armorama: 97 posts
Posted: Saturday, July 13, 2019 - 04:32 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I have got to the point where I need to make a decision and I have gone for the tank below. It is my understanding that this is one of the tanks destroyed by Whittmann prior to entering or after exiting Villers-Bocage. This is really an obvious choice as the decals in the box cover this specific tank and it is my intent to build the model and a small diorama showing the tank and crew as Wittmann comes into view.




Darren,

sorry to upset your plans but the latest research into the battle at Villers-Bocage shows that Wittmann never came across this OP Cromwell (T-187796 commanded by Cpt. Roy Dunlop, 'K' Battery / 5RHA, then 'A' Sqn, 4CLY 's FOO) as it was one of the few tanks that had made it to Point 213 east of Villers-Bocage before Wittmann started his attack into the town. It was one of the few tanks that went further east while trying to flee from Point 213 early in the afternoon of 13 June, and they were stopped and abandoned a short distance from Point 213 at Le Bas des Landes on the RN175 road when they ran into Tigers of the 1./s.SS-Pz.Abt.101 commanded by Hstuf. Rolf Möbius. Some of the British tanks managed to get back to Point 213 but were captured shortly after at around 14.00 hrs eventually.
I can help with more photos if you wish..

Rgds
Yann
CMOT
Staff MemberEditor-in-Chief
ARMORAMA
Visit this Community
England - South West, United Kingdom
Joined: May 14, 2006
KitMaker: 10,954 posts
Armorama: 8,571 posts
Posted: Saturday, July 13, 2019 - 05:04 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

I have got to the point where I need to make a decision and I have gone for the tank below. It is my understanding that this is one of the tanks destroyed by Whittmann prior to entering or after exiting Villers-Bocage. This is really an obvious choice as the decals in the box cover this specific tank and it is my intent to build the model and a small diorama showing the tank and crew as Wittmann comes into view.






Darren,

sorry to upset your plans but the latest research into the battle at Villers-Bocage shows that Wittmann never came across this OP Cromwell (T-187796 commanded by Cpt. Roy Dunlop, 'K' Battery / 5RHA, then 'A' Sqn, 4CLY 's FOO) as it was one of the few tanks that had made it to Point 213 east of Villers-Bocage before Wittmann started his attack into the town. It was one of the few tanks that went further east while trying to flee from Point 213 early in the afternoon of 13 June, and they were stopped and abandoned a short distance from Point 213 at Le Bas des Landes on the RN175 road when they ran into Tigers of the 1./s.SS-Pz.Abt.101 commanded by Hstuf. Rolf Möbius. Some of the British tanks managed to get back to Point 213 but were captured shortly after at around 14.00 hrs eventually.
I can help with more photos if you wish..

Rgds
Yann



Thank you for that input Yan and so I will have to go back to RSM Gerald Holloway's Cromwell, and it has a more pleasing background. Any photographic help you can offer will be gratefully received.
CMOT
Staff MemberEditor-in-Chief
ARMORAMA
Visit this Community
England - South West, United Kingdom
Joined: May 14, 2006
KitMaker: 10,954 posts
Armorama: 8,571 posts
Posted: Saturday, July 13, 2019 - 10:31 PM UTC
Are there amy better pictures of the properties where RSM Gerald Holloway's Cromwell was destroyed outside of?