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Armor/AFV: Axis - WWII
Armor and ground forces of the Axis forces during World War II.
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a BIG Dragon error !
KurtLaughlin
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Posted: Sunday, October 06, 2019 - 12:29 AM UTC
You wrote as a suggestion to the original poster:

Quoted Text

If you have a fine circle cutter that can do the radius this should be easy with thin styrene stock. Alternatively you can probably stencil it from the D rings. It's two concentric circles so it cannot be *that* hard.



And I wrote:

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It's not your idea that I commented on, but your apparently ill-informed belief that it wouldn't be a difficult task.



And you, missing the point entirely, wrote back:

Quoted Text


Just because it's hard for you doesn't mean it's hard for me, you know, this is as subjective as it goes. Nothing to do with information, nor worth arguing about, unless you're trying to make your daily quota of negative internet comments.



It doesn't matter if it is easy for you. This was your suggestion to the OP to solve his own problem. It's a viable option if he has the equipment, the materials, and the skill, but making 20 of these (or even 4) cleanly and consistently is not trivial task. Your dismissive view of the difficulty involved can only be ascribed to ignorance.


Quoted Text

I can demonstrate how it is done by making a couple of those for Russ since he's still missing them, if you're willing to make it worth my time.



Why on earth would I do that? You sound like you are one of those short-tempered people who turns everything into a wager or competition, and then a fight when they inevitably lose.

No, I already provided a practical solution to Ivanhoe6's problem. I'll stick with that.

KL
FuNsTeR
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Posted: Sunday, October 06, 2019 - 04:58 AM UTC

Quoted Text

"Miniart is a smaller company and their practices represent their approach to customer relations."

and Dragons practices represents their approach



Dragon Models Ltd = A cowboy outfit run by and for cowboys

as for Dragon cares ... it doesn't if you live in Europe ... no more cash from me
Kevlar06
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Posted: Sunday, October 06, 2019 - 06:25 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

"Miniart is a smaller company and their practices represent their approach to customer relations."

and Dragons practices represents their approach



Dragon Models Ltd = A cowboy outfit run by and for cowboys

as for Dragon cares ... it doesn't if you live in Europe ... no more cash from me



You're giving cowboys a bad name-- I have a few friends who are cowboys, and they work hard wrangling all those cows. They don't make a lot of mistakes, and when they do, it usually ends up in broken bones!
VR, Russ

P.S., are we mixing Ivanhoe6's up with Russ' or did I miss something here? I'm not missing any Dragon wheels that I know of. I've been accused of having a few screws lost though...
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Sunday, October 06, 2019 - 08:12 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Quoted Text

"Miniart is a smaller company and their practices represent their approach to customer relations."

and Dragons practices represents their approach



Dragon Models Ltd = A cowboy outfit run by and for cowboys

as for Dragon cares ... it doesn't if you live in Europe ... no more cash from me



You're giving cowboys a bad name-- I have a few friends who are cowboys, and they work hard wrangling all those cows. They don't make a lot of mistakes, and when they do, it usually ends up in broken bones!
VR, Russ

P.S., are we mixing Ivanhoe6's up with Russ' or did I miss something here? I'm not missing any Dragon wheels that I know of. I've been accused of having a few screws lost though...



I've got a whole bag full of loose screws, let me know if you need some
Removed by original poster on 10/06/19 - 20:58:37 (GMT).
ctkwok
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Posted: Sunday, October 06, 2019 - 09:04 AM UTC
Shouldíve done this yesterday.

Hereís how I replicated a ring in approximately 15 mins, first try. This is high school craft work and if you have scratched just about anything in modeling this honestly is a piece of cake. First I used a thin Evergreen styrene stock of 0.1 or 0.2 mm. Then I superglued the ring onto the sheet. The main thing is you only apply glue to 3 triangular points so that you can easily separate the ring from the sheet later, but enough to hold the ring in place. Wait for it to cure a bit (I didnít) so that the hold is solid.



Next take a new xacto blade and swipe the inner circle along the circumference. Donít turn the blade but turn the sheet, swipe but donít push/cut it, just like how you normally work styrene. A hard surface helps a lot, so I switched from the cutting mat to a piece of flat steel in the next photos.



After 15 or so turns the circle will come right off.


If you swipe light patiently youíd already have a smooth edge, I didnít, and you can take a rolled 400-600 grit sand paper or whatever to lightly smooth out the edge, with the brass still in place.



Do the same for the outer circumference, rinse and repeat. The whole thing came right off. Smooth edge with sandpaper if you want.



Use your blade to separate the two rings. Done.



Because one side of the ring is facing towards the wheel the glue residue wonít matter, or you can also lightly sand the glue away. The thing is the ring isnít so small nor so narrow that makes this hard to manage, so fat or thin fingers it wonít matter. Whether this is easy or hard you be the judge, I don't argue about adjectives.

Incidentally I checked the Tristar/Hobbyboss Panzer I, they implemented this ring with a styrene kit part rather than PE.
iam2brb
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Posted: Sunday, October 06, 2019 - 10:50 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I thought Dragon was a synonym for "Error".



that is exactly what I was thinking. I hear peeps rag on Academy, but for what a Dragon kit costs, they REALLY take the cake on errors
Removed by original poster on 10/06/19 - 23:16:48 (GMT).
Removed by original poster on 10/06/19 - 23:18:22 (GMT).
Kevlar06
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Posted: Sunday, October 06, 2019 - 11:18 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Quoted Text

"Miniart is a smaller company and their practices represent their approach to customer relations."

and Dragons practices represents their approach



Dragon Models Ltd = A cowboy outfit run by and for cowboys

as for Dragon cares ... it doesn't if you live in Europe ... no more cash from me



You're giving cowboys a bad name-- I have a few friends who are cowboys, and they work hard wrangling all those cows. They don't make a lot of mistakes, and when they do, it usually ends up in broken bones!
VR, Russ

P.S., are we mixing Ivanhoe6's up with Russ' or did I miss something here? I'm not missing any Dragon wheels that I know of. I've been accused of having a few screws lost though...



I've got a whole bag full of loose screws, let me know if you need some




Thanks Robin! Nice to know I'm not the only one who's lost some screws!
VR, Russ
ctkwok
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Posted: Sunday, October 06, 2019 - 03:55 PM UTC

Quoted Text


P.S., are we mixing Ivanhoe6's up with Russ' or did I miss something here? I'm not missing any Dragon wheels that I know of. I've been accused of having a few screws lost though...



Sorry got people mixed up, fixed my original post.
TopSmith
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Posted: Wednesday, October 09, 2019 - 12:15 AM UTC
Cody, nice solution. Sometimes it is nice to see a solution someone approached from a different direction. Nicely done.
panzerbob01
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Posted: Wednesday, October 09, 2019 - 03:59 AM UTC
Cody: Thanks for showing what you were actually talking about. What you have shown is a very nice way to relatively easily replicate those PE rings - with maintaining the "holy grail" of concentric ring cuts while doing so. In fact, I'm going to go pluck a ring or 3 from a kit and try it out "just for the experience"!

Just to clarify my "actually talking about...": Probably many of us (I, for one) were a bit confused by "stencil" in your initial post regarding this matter. Some would have been much more sure of what you were proposing had you used the word "template" instead. You are using that original ring as a cutting template.

Had I gone ahead with the original "stencil", I would perhaps spray paint over a positioned ring (the way probably most folks think of "stencils" and stenciling in our modeling world)... creating a nice paint-free "shadow" of the ring, with proper concentric circles clearly marked... but cutting those "free-hand" would be rather challenging. Whereas tracing with a knife-tip around an attached hard template as a firm guide is a whole lot easier to get both sides done well!

I would guess that half (maybe much more than half...) of the acrimony which occasionally blossoms in these threads does so more out of confusion and misunderstanding about what words another has said than about anything else. We are all plagued by our partial sharing of a "common" language fraught with many little vocabulary and usage-convention pit-falls!

In any case, THANKS for showing us this approach, Cody! I, for one, Greatly Appreciate it (even though I actually don't NEED any more of those darned rings! ).

Bob
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Wednesday, October 09, 2019 - 04:58 AM UTC
The technique for cutting rings could come in handy some other time.

I have been thinking about mounting a holder for nr 11 scalpel blades in a compass to be able to cut circles.
Just go round and round and round until the circle is cut.
/ Robin
alanmac
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Posted: Wednesday, October 09, 2019 - 07:34 AM UTC

Quoted Text

The technique for cutting rings could come in handy some other time.

I have been thinking about mounting a holder for nr 11 scalpel blades in a compass to be able to cut circles.
Just go round and round and round until the circle is cut.
/ Robin



Isn't that what this does

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Olfa-Compass-Cutter-cutting-circles/dp/B000BK7NWC/ref=asc_df_B000BK7NWC/?tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=226606326869&hvpos=1o1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=10780440735243460420&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=&hvtargid=pla-384997438318&psc=1&th=1&psc=1
Grauwolf
#084
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Posted: Wednesday, October 09, 2019 - 07:52 AM UTC
That is an excellant tool, Alan.

There is also this one which will cut discs as small as 1/16"

https://www.amazon.com/Cutting-Compass-Titanium-Precision-Circle/dp/B079VK55SC

Cheers,
ctkwok
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Posted: Wednesday, October 09, 2019 - 08:17 AM UTC
Thanks for the kind words Bob. I just think no matter the approach taken this isn't difficult, I have no idea whether we were talking about the exact approach or just the general idea of replicating the ring as the discussion got lost in one-liners.

The compass+knife is the circle cutter I was talking about (I use an OLFA), it makes the job much easier but that would be cheating. I used them to cut masks for wheel hubs back when I was ill-informed.
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Wednesday, October 09, 2019 - 10:04 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

The technique for cutting rings could come in handy some other time.

I have been thinking about mounting a holder for nr 11 scalpel blades in a compass to be able to cut circles.
Just go round and round and round until the circle is cut.
/ Robin



Isn't that what this does

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Olfa-Compass-Cutter-cutting-circles/dp/B000BK7NWC/ref=asc_df_B000BK7NWC/?tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=226606326869&hvpos=1o1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=10780440735243460420&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=&hvtargid=pla-384997438318&psc=1&th=1&psc=1



Correct!


I'd like to have an all-metal one though
KurtLaughlin
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Posted: Wednesday, October 09, 2019 - 12:42 PM UTC
The real difficulty is making 4 (or 20) that are identical. These are parts made by machines. Even generous manufacturing tolerances in real life are indistinguishable in model scales. Minute differences in the size or ovalities of model parts, say .002-.003 inch, are readily apparent to the eye when placed next to each other. So, while one can make rings by various methods they won't be perfect. Some manual effort will be needed to true them up. This process inherently makes the parts individual, not identical. Perhaps it adds a flat spot or thins the ring width or changes the OD. When attached to wheel #3 it can look great and ditto to wheel #4. Put next to each other though it's the proverbial sore thumb. Making a group of parts of this type is difficult if your goal is to make them look like machine-made parts on a model and you are not happy with slopping mud on anything that looks off.

Perhaps I should have used another word instead of "ill-informed" . . . At the time I was thinking "undiscerning", but went in another direction.

KL
panzerbob01
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Posted: Wednesday, October 09, 2019 - 01:10 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

The technique for cutting rings could come in handy some other time.

I have been thinking about mounting a holder for nr 11 scalpel blades in a compass to be able to cut circles.
Just go round and round and round until the circle is cut.
/ Robin



Isn't that what this does

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Olfa-Compass-Cutter-cutting-circles/dp/B000BK7NWC/ref=asc_df_B000BK7NWC/?tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=226606326869&hvpos=1o1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=10780440735243460420&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=&hvtargid=pla-384997438318&psc=1&th=1&psc=1



The Olfa circle-cutter is a pretty nice tool - but I'm pretty sure that it cannot make a circle under about 1.0cm... Which probably rules-out cutting these 1/35 Pz.1 wheel rings.

Kurt; I'm sure that you are, in an absolute way, correct - none of the methods or approaches being talked about here will likely yield "near-perfect" replicate rings. Certainly not at a tolerance of, say, a couple of 1000/inch. But it seems likely that someone could, with a nice, new, sharp blade and a little patience and attention, get pretty fair ring copies which would stand up well for most of us modelers. Given the many "construction errors" - visible seams, sinks, scarred surfaces, nicked edges, etc. - which commonly occur (and go un-noticed by viewers and show judges) even on very good builds, I should think that a slightly out-of-round circle or flange or ring would likely pass un-noticed by about all but the most obsessive viewer! But that's just my opinion, of course!

Just saying!

Bob
ctkwok
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Posted: Wednesday, October 09, 2019 - 03:49 PM UTC
I haven't read a single word of his reply since Page 2. Every single second spent is wasted on this discussion when the OP did not care about this particular issue in the first place.
KurtLaughlin
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Posted: Thursday, October 10, 2019 - 12:09 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Kurt; I'm sure that you are, in an absolute way, correct - none of the methods or approaches being talked about here will likely yield "near-perfect" replicate rings. Certainly not at a tolerance of, say, a couple of 1000/inch. But it seems likely that someone could, with a nice, new, sharp blade and a little patience and attention, get pretty fair ring copies which would stand up well for most of us modelers.



Absolutely true. The closer you are to "pretty fair" the easier it is. If you are trying to match other machine made parts (like PE rings) you have to be much better than pretty fair.


Quoted Text

Given the many "construction errors" - visible seams, sinks, scarred surfaces, nicked edges, etc. - which commonly occur (and go un-noticed by viewers and show judges) even on very good builds, I should think that a slightly out-of-round circle or flange or ring would likely pass un-noticed by about all but the most obsessive viewer! But that's just my opinion, of course!



Everyone is free to build as they choose, of course, with as much effort as they find fun and desirable. If you are walking by tables at a show you may not notice, but these things (misaligned parts, open seams, flash on corners, sprue nubs, sanding flats on roadwheels, bent PE, misaligned suspensions, twisted muzzle brakes, open hinge knuckles, etc., etc.) leap out even in casual focus. You do *not* have to be obsessive to find them. You just have to know they can happen.

I think that if a modeler works to remove these errors from their own models they are more likely to notice them elsewhere. That's the nature of things, I guess.

KL
KurtLaughlin
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Posted: Thursday, October 10, 2019 - 12:14 PM UTC

Quoted Text

I haven't read a single word of his reply since Page 2. Every single second spent is wasted on this discussion when the OP did not care about this particular issue in the first place.



But you went to the effort of letting everyone KNOW you weren't reading. Very convincing!

KL
ivanhoe6
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Posted: Friday, October 11, 2019 - 02:24 AM UTC
I just got back in town. Didn't know my post would create such a ???
Cody came through with my missing road wheels & track links. Thank you very much Cody ! I owe you one !
Great tutorial on scratching parts BTW ! You can apply that method to other things too.
8 days after Emailing Dragon Care I got a response asking for details. I basically told them to compare the art work (10 wheels) & the inner pages instructions to the sprue layout page. And that there should be a "memo" somewhere about the screw up and process the complaint right away with no fuss. (you'd hope)
They also asked for an image of the receipt that I don't have. I hope that they don't use that as a lame a$$ excuse not to honor their failure.
Thanks to Cody's generosity I don't have to worry about Dragon Care. I DO want Dragon to acknowledge their failure and make it right!!
I'll keep everybody posted about the progress or lack of.

Thanks for all the support & input everyone!

Have a good weekend everybody ! It's the MMSI show in Chicago for me !
Biggles2
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Posted: Friday, October 11, 2019 - 02:41 AM UTC
Dragon Care tries to give you the ten tasks of Hercules, plus demand a gallon of urine (which they throw out) just to see if you're serious!